John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,501 through 21,520 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #868074
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But never the less it’s says he knew no sin,  then he was  a “perfect” human being.  But a human being non the less.  Giving him a “prexistent” status,  moves him away from his humanity, and gives him an advantage over us , making him appear different then we are.

    He emptied himself and came in the flesh. Yet he still had advantages such as no sin. I can only imagine what such a thing would have done for me. Nevertheless, when we have a covenant with God, he wipes our sins away. Still, the flesh is a pain. Can’t wait for the new body. That said, I have things to do here first.

    #868076
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    But never the less it’s says he knew no sin, then he was a “perfect” human being. But a human being non the less. Giving him a “prexistent” status, moves him away from his humanity, and gives him an advantage over us, making him appear different then we are.”

     

    Me

    BIBLE SAYS  JESUS KNEW NO SIN

     

    2 Cor.5 :20   Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    [21] For he hath made him to be sin for us, WHO KNEW NO SIN; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Gene,    be careful what you write….

    #868080
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..the key is to understand what the word “Knew” actually means.   Adam “knew” Eve And She brought forth her first son ,  Cain.

    What soes that word “Knew” mean?    Was it “hi  I’m Adam, glad to meet you Eve, or was it to mean he have an eniminit relationship with her?

    To know good and evil is not saying to know “about” something,  it is saying to have an actual experience with it, it scriptures.

    Jesus did however  have experence with sin nearly all his life on this earth,   but he himself “did”  not sin. The sin he was “experiencing” was not comming from him, but from others.  But he still learned from that experience, as scripture say, “he learned “obedience”, BY THE THINGS HE SUFFERED.” .  We also learn obedience to God by the things  we also suffer. 

    Trying to move Jesus away from our own “idenity” with him as a fellow human being,   is the greatest sin of all. IMO it is exactly what Satan and his ministers wants you to do. He wants you to believe Jesus was and is different then you and me.  That is the big “LIE”. HE SIMPLY DOESN’T WANT YOU TO SEE YOUR POTENTIAL, so he created the “LIE” that make Jesus appear different, so you won’t believe the potential you have.  Jesus is exactly what we are going to become in the family of God, He is our “exact” potential,  and Satan hates that.  

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

     

    #868081
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    2 Peter 2:22

      Who did no sin,

    neither was guile found in his mouth:
    [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but  himself to him that judgeth righteously:
    [24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

     

     

    #868082
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You said God could never indwell in anyone. Well scripture say that not true,

     

    “if the Spirit of Him That raised Jesus from the dead, “DWELL” IN YOU, then he which raised Jesus christ from the dead, shall “also” quicken your mortal body”.

    Romans 8:9But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit,

    if so be that

    the Spirit of God dwells in you.

    IN THE ABOVE Gene, IT IS MORE THAN CLEAR THAT

    NOT GOD DWELLS IN US BUT

    THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    THIS SPIRIT IS SENT BY JESUS FROM THE FATHER OF WHICH WE RECEIVE ON

    BAPTISM. THIS IS ASSERTED BY JESUS IN

    John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you:

    but you cannot bear them now. 

     

    Gene, CAN YOU UNDERSTAND FROM THE ABOVE,

    WHAT KIND OF STATE  HUMANS WERE IN BEFORE JESUS’REDEMPTION? 

    HUMANS WERE NOT IN THE POSITION  NEITHER  TO ACCEPT NOR TO LIVE IN CHRIST, OR MORE APPROPRIATE,

    IMITATE CHRIST AND LIVE HIS SPIRITUAL LIFE!

    SIMPLY AS SATAN HAD/HAS TOO MUCH POWER OVER HUMANS THROUGH THE HUMAN CORRUPTED FLESH, EVEN UP TO NOW.

    THE FACT THAT PAUL SAID THOSE PRECISE  WORDS IN ROMANS 8:9 HEREUNDER:

    But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit,…..

    Con.John 16:

    13But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,

    he will teach you all truth.

    For he shall not speak of

    HIMSELF;  but what things soever he shall hear,( IN RELATION TO CHRIST)  he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.

    14He shall glorify me;

    OK Gene, THE HOLY SPIRIT GLORIFIES JESUS CHRIST AND HIS SPIRITUAL TEACHING.

    because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 

    THE HOLY SPIRIT SENT FROM THE FATHER, IS EQIVALENTLY EMPOWERED AS MUCH AS CHRIST IS,

    RELATED BOTH TO HIS MANHOOD AND HIS DIVINITY, ATTENTION Gene NOW:

    SINCE ONLY JESUS IS GLORIFIED AS

    GODMAN ON EARTH NOT THE FATHER,

    FOR THE GLORY AND PLEASURE OF THE FATHER!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS

    THE SOLE RULER OVER ALL, SENT HIM, 

    15All things whatsoever the Father hath,

    are mine.

    THE ABOVE Gene, IS EMPHATICALLY CLEAR THAT JESUS

    INHERITED ALL CHARACTERISTICS AND POWERS OF THE FATHER, BY WHICH HE MANIFESTED AND REVEALED THE FATHER WITH WHILE ON EARTH,

    FOR ALL ETERNITY! 

    THUS JESUS, THE SON/DIVINE OF MAN, FROM THE MOMENT OF HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS, AS MUCH AS  HE DIED, LIKE HUMANS 

    HE ALSO GLORIFIED LIKE GOD, AND INTEGRATED

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST ATTRIBUTED TO

    THE SON OF GOD, IN JESUS’SOUL, GOD’S SOUL! WELL CLEAR IN Joh13:31-32, John17:1 and predicted in 

    Isaiah 42:1 BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him:

    my elect, my soul delighteth in him:

    I have given my spirit upon him,

    Gene, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

    he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS ON GOLGOTHA  ALSO PREDICTED IN

    Isaiah 25:6 And the Lord of hosts shall make unto all people in

    this mountain,

    a feast of fat things, a feast of wine, of fat things full of marrow, of wine purified from the LEES.

    7And he shall destroy in this mountain

    the face of the bond with which ALL PEOPLE were tied, and the web that he (SATAN) made over all nations.

    8He shall cast death down headlong forever:

    and the Lord God shall wipe away tears from every face, and the reproach of his people he shall take away

    from off the whole earth:

    for the Lord (JESUS CHRIST) hath spoken it.

    9And they shall say in that day:

    Lo, this is our God,(JESUS CHRIST)

    we have waited for him,

    and he will save us:

    this is the Lord, we have patiently waited for him,

    we shall rejoice and be joyful in his salvation.

    JESUS IS THE ONLY BEING GLORIFIED

    ONE SUBSTANCE

    BOTH IN

    THE HUMAN FLESH OF EARTH,

    “THE WORD”MADE FLESH and

    THE SPIRIT OF GOD OF HEAVEN,

    THE HOLY GHOST, IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    THE ONLY GODMAN ON EARTH! 

    IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH!

    John13;32 When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man glorified,

    and God is glorified in him.

    32If God be glorified in him,

    God also will glorify him in himself;

    and immediately will he glorify him. 

    GODMAN ON HIS DEATH

    BACK TO Romans 8:9

    Now if any man have not

    the Spirit of Christ,

    he is none of his. 

    10And if Christ be in you,

    Gene WHO IS IN HUMANS? OBVIOUS

    THE HOLY SPIRIT SENT BY JESUS CHRIST FROM THE FATHER

    EMPOWERED BY JESUS CHRIST

    THROUGHOUT!

    ….the body indeed is dead, because of sin;

    Gene, IS  YOUR BODY DEAD???

    but the spirit liveth, because of justification.

    JUSTIFIED IN CHRIST

    Gene, IS THE SPIRIT LIVES IN YOU?

     11And if the Spirit of him

    HERE COMES THE TRUTH Gene!

    WHO IS HIM???

    JESUS CHRIST 

    GODMAN ON EARTH

    IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS!

    that raised up Jesus(dead body) from the dead, dwell in you;

    he that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead,(spiritually dead in all souls) 

    ORIGINALLY SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev:13:8

    shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of

    his Spirit (in the Holy Ghost) that dwelleth in you 

    Did you notice the word,   “ALSO” there , another words exactly as he (God the Father did Jesus’ body).

    ME: bunch of lies!

    Gene, IMMEDIATELY FROM THE CROSS

    JESUS CHRIST BECAME

    GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN!

    Heres what the apostle Paul said, “know you not that your “body” “IS”,  the TEMPLE,  of  the LIVING GOD”.?

    did you know that Carmel?

    AND HOW!

    THAT LIVING GOD Gene, is

    JESUS CHRIST, for the pleasure of the Father. 

    HE LIVED  ON EARTH AND PROVED IT THAT HE IS 

    THE TRUE MANIFESTED AND LIVING

    GODMAN

    GOD OF ALL FLESH!!!

    Jeremiah 32:26 And the word of the Lord came to Jeremias, saying: 27Behold I am ( JESUS CHRIST)

    the Lord

    THE  God of all flesh:

    shall any thing be hard for me? 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #868092
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……The Father is Spirit,  or don’t you believe what Jesus clearly said.

    John 4:24…..“GOD IS A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth.”

    Rom 8:11….“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead “DWELL” “IN” “YOU” , he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also (the same way) quicken (bring to life) Your mortal (dead) “BODIES” (how) BY HIS SPIRIT THAT “DWELLS” ‘IN” “YOU”. 

    CARMEL,  ALL YOUR RATTLING and long twisting and turning,  MEANS NOTHING, it like your a  indian medicine man , jumping around and waving you arms chanting things that make no sense,  to no one but you.

    Try just talking about one thing at a time, and not bring a huge amount of other scriptures you have changed the wordings and add your own words to for a change.  No one here is even reading what you are posting anymore. Just post a few scriptures at a time ok?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

    #868094
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    I have to respond to your falsehood.
    You always attack strawman. We already talked about headship.
    I don’t know how many times do I have to repeat. Ok, let’s try it one more time:
    The head of the woman is man. Does this mean that the husband is a superior being to his wife?
    The answer is obviously, “No.” The husband is greater than his wife by way of position but not by nature.
    The same applies to the Father and the Son. The Father is greater by position, but not better by nature.
    You already agreed with me on that. Ok. But you still insist that Jesus is just a god?
    That doesn’t work. Whether you like it or not. That doesn’t work.
    Bow down before Jesus Christ your God!

    #868096
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny Dabbs. ……what you have said is true,  ,  but we also share in that devine nature, just like Jesus does. But we as Jesus are not a God, no do we have the authority of God, no his power,  how does thinking Jesus is somehow above us in his devine nature make him above us?  Jesus is only above us in “authority”, given him by his father who is God and our Father who is GOD.  SO the question to you is in what way is Jesus actually different then we are, in his nature?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #868099
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Danny, you are still not getting it.

    There is one God (the Father) and one Lord (the Lord Jesus Christ).

    There is one God and he sent his son into the world.

    There is one God and Father of all from who all things came. And there one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ through all things came.

    So obviously God is not God because of his nature, but because of his position and because he is the source and head of all.

    What you are doing is arguing that nature defines the meaning of God, thus Jesus is God because he is divine and then you kind of ignore that we can also share in that nature.

    God is God in identity. God has a nature, but he shares that nature to his sons. It’s not even hard to understand because the very words father and son demonstrate this. But you would argue that they have the same nature therefore they are both equal and both God. Wrong.

    God is God not because he has divine nature, but because he is the Most High.

    #868101
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Let’s look at your logic another way.

    Lionel Messi is the greatest footballer of all time. Okay that is an opinion even though he has the stats, but let’s run with it regardless. Neymar is also a great footballer, He is not the greatest. He may become the greatest, some would argue that he is the greatest right now, but right now he is not the greatest of all time.

    So your argument would be that Messi is a human and Neymar is a human, so they are both the greatest. And you know that is silly because you already admitted that the Father is greater than the son.

    Remember, God is not God because of divine nature. God is God because God is the greatest and there is no one above him. He is the Most High and you already know the Son is not as great as the Father.

    Of course, I am confident that you will continue to argue against this. But bear in mind that I have hundreds of scriptures I can quote. So my job of proving the truth will be far easier than your job of building an argument on a faulty foundation. Here are two scriptures to start with.

    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder.

     

    #868103
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    Jehovah is both God and Lord. Is Jehovah your God and Lord?

    LU

    #868135
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    Jesus Christ the Son of God is my Lord and my God!

    And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” John 20:28

    I believe my Bible. Thank you. I think it’s time to move on.

    God bless you.

    #868138
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I believe my Bible too. I always give thanks to Jesus Christ and his God.

    John 20:17 (English-NIV)
    Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
    `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
    so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Corinthians 1:3 (English-NIV)
    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

    2 Corinthians 11:31 (English-NIV)
    The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

    Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

    Colossians 1:3 (English-NIV)
    We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

    1 Peter 1:3 (English-NIV)
    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    I believe my Bible. Thank you. I think it’s time to move on because there is one God and there is one Lord and there always will be.

    God bless you.

    #868144
    Berean
    Participant

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS GOD THE FATHER

    IT IS ALSO TRUE THAT GOD THE FATHER CALLED “HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON ” GOD” {Hebrews 1)

    AND THOMAS WAS NOT TAKEN UP BY JESUS WHEN THOMAS SAID TO JESUS: MY LORD AND MY GOD ….

    ISAIAH 9:6

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    MIGHTY GOD<<<<<

    NOT ALL MIGHTY BUT MIGHTY

     

     

     

     

    #868147
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel……The Father is Spirit, or don’t you believe what Jesus clearly said.

    Me: Gene, YOU SIMPLY MADE ME LAUGH!

    DIDN’T YOU READ MY POST, PREVIOUS TO THIS ONE?

    HERE IT IS ALL IN BLUE, READ AGAIN:

    YOU: Tell us Berean why would a God,  need another God , to do the work ““IN” him. 

    If he were already a God?

    Me: Gene, THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR PROOF OF

    HOW A  CARNALLY MINDED PERSON YOU ARE!

    WHEN WILL YOU GET IT INTO YOUR CARNAL MIND THAT GOD IS NOT ONLY

    A GOD BUT ALSO 

     A SPIRIT!

    A SPIRIT Gene, REQUIRES

    A BODY IN ORDER TO PERFORM HIS WORK!

    NOW JESUS Gene, WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT, IT’S YOUR PROBLEM, WAS

    THE FIRST EVER EMBODIMENT OF GOD! 

    John 1:1 1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and

    the Word was God.

    IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU EITHER DIDN’T READ MY POST AT ALL, OR YOU DIDN’T UNDERSTAND WHAT I POSTED.

    Read what you said AGAIN:

    Tell us Berean why would a God,  need another God ,

    to do the work ““IN” him. 

    If he were already a God?

    ACCORDING TO YOU CARNAL MIND,

    IF GOD THE FATHER WAS ALREADY GOD

    HE ALSO HAD ABODY, AND HE DOESN’T NEED A BODY

    TO PERFORM HIS WORK IN/FROM!

    CONSEQUENTLY, WITH YOUR NONSENSE STATEMENT I AM MORE THAN SURE THAT

    YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT A SPIRIT IS!!!

    DON’T YOU KNOW THAT GOD BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING

    (A) HE HAD NOT A BODY OF ANY SORT???

    (B)  HE CREATED A CREATION AD-EXTRA, OUTSIDE OF HIMSELF, THE KINGDOM OF HIS SON, SIMPLY TO

    BE IN ALL BODIES HE CREATES???

    THE FACT THAT HE ALWAYS AND ONLY CREATED ANYTHING THROUGH AND BY

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, 

    BY WHOM AS A SPIRIT/MEDIATOR IT WAS POSSIBLE FOR GOD TO BE

    DIRECTLY ATTACHED WITH HIS CREATURES,

    IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR GOD, WHO IS

    A PERFECT, ETERNAL AND MOST POWERFUL TO ABIDE IN

    AN IMPERFECT, MORTAL, AND MOST WEAK CREATURE WITHOUT SIMPLY ANNIHILATES SUCH CREATURES, AND IT IS ONLY IN SUCH CREATURES IN ACTUAL FACT GOD HAD THE PLEASURE TO MANIFEST HIS PHYSICAL KINGDOM IN. Well pinpointed out in

    Matthew 11:11 Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist:

    yet he that is THE LESSER in the kingdom of heaven

    is greater than he. 

    CAN YOU SEE WHAT THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE CLEARLY SAYS?

     

    YOU: Carmel……The Father is Spirit, or don’t you believe what Jesus clearly said. John 4:24…..“GOD IS A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship him in

    Spirit and in truth.

    WHAT THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE, FROM

    JESUS OWN MOUTH

    “THE TRUTH,” ITSELF SAYS???

    SCRIPTURE:

    John 14:6 Jesus saith to him:

    I am …. THE TRUTH,…

    No man cometh to the Father, but

    BY ME.

    IN THE ABOVE STATEMENT BY JESUS, IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT

    HUMANS COULD IN NO WAY RETURN AND LIVE ETERNALLY IN THE PRESENCE OF THE FATHER  IN HEAVEN 

    UNLESS BY JESUS!

    NEVER MIND GOD THE FATHER DWELLS IN HUMANS! 

    YOUR DELUSION! OK, Gene?

    JESUS IS BOTH SPIRIT IN THE HOLY GHOST AND PHYSICAL IN “THE WORD”

    ONE SUBSTANCE IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    BOTH GOD AND MAN

    THE TRUTH!

    Now let’s go back to 

    John4:20Our fathers adored on this mountain, and you say, that at Jerusalem is the place where men must adore. 21Jesus saith to her: Woman, believe me,

    that the hour cometh,

    when you shall neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, adore the Father.

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS CONFIRMED THAT FROM THE REDEMPTION MOMENT ON,

    THE PLACE OR LOCALITY OF WORSHIP IS NOT IMPORTANT ANYMORE, BUT IT IS 

    THE  BELIEF AND WAY OF WORSHIP ARE

    IMPORTANT. 

    22You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews.

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS MADE IT CLEAR THAT FROM REDEMPTION ONWARD HUMANITY IN GENERAL, WILL ADORE GOD EVERYWHERE AND ANYTIME AS MUCH AS THEY WANT, SIMPLY AS

    JESUS IN HIMSELF 

    GODMAN ON EARTH

    IN HIS EMBODIMENT 

    UNITED HUMANITY AND GOD,

    WHERE BEFORE ONLY THE JEWS OF WHOM SALVATION CAME, KNEW THE GOD THEY ADORED! 

    A CLEAR REFERENCE TO HIMSELF!

    23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in

    spirit and in truth.

    For the Father also seeketh such to adore him.

    24God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him

    in spirit and in truth. 

    JESUS CHRIST OK,Gene???

    ONLY JESUS IS TRUTH WHO REVEALED AND MANIFESTED GOD,

    SPIRIT

    ON EARTH

    PHYSICALLY 

    THE TRUE GOD!!!

    1 John5:20And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,

    and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

     

    Jesus Christ OK, Gene???

    Rom 8:11….“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead “DWELL” “IN” “YOU” , he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also (the same way) quicken (bring to life) Your mortal (dead) “BODIES” (how) BY HIS SPIRIT THAT “DWELLS” ‘IN” “YOU”.

    ME: IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE THE TITLE

    GOD IS NOT MENTIONED 

    HOW ON EARTH A CARNAL MINDED PERSON LIKE YOU CONCLUDED THAT

    “HIM”

    IS A REFERENCE TO GOD THE FATHER

    GO BACK Gene to my post and read 

    TO WHOM  “THE SPIRIT OF

    HIM” 

    IS REFERRING!

     

    YOU: CARMEL,  ALL YOUR RATTLING and long twisting and turning,  MEANS NOTHING, it like your a  indian medicine man , jumping around and waving you arms chanting things that make no sense,  to no one but you.

    Gene the above is a confirmation that you are 

    FRUSTRATED, PUZZLED, CONFUSED, SPEECHLESS, UNRESPONSIVE, AND MOST OF ALL SIMPLY

    MIND-BOGGLED

    YOU ARE NOT FAR AWAY FROM BEING

    SILENT LIKE JODI!

    YOU ARE NOT IN THE POSITION TO PICK 

    ONE VERSE WHICH ACCORDING TO YOU IS RATTLING AND 

    CONTRADICT ME BY USING SCRIPTURE SPECIFICALLY  WITHOUT RATTLING YOURSELF,

    THE ONLY WAY HOW TO EXPRESS YOURSELF

    AS YOU DID IN THIS POST.

    Gene UNLESS YOU DO SO 

    MINE STANDS  AS TRUTH!

    YOU: Try just talking about one thing at a time, and not bring a huge amount of other scriptures you have changed the wordings and add your own words to for a change.  No one here is even reading what you are posting anymore. Just post a few scriptures at a time ok?

    DID YOU EVER FELT THE SAME 

    WHEN JODI POSTED TONS OF SCRIPTURES WHICH IN THE TRUTH

    COTRADICTED HERSELF WITH, AND FROM THE OTHER HAND YOU SIMPLY SAID

    YOU NAILED IT AGAIN???

    THE ONLY REASON THAT YOU DONT WANT

    THE SCRIPTURE I POSTED IS ONLY BECAUSE THEY

    SIMPLY EXPOSE YOUR LIES AND MISUNDERSTANDINGS OF SCRIPTURES.

    NEVERTHELESS

    YOU ARE ALWAYS IN MY PRAYERS!!!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    #868156
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……At least Jodi and I don’t change  word meanings, except where STRONG shows  them as mistranlated, from the Greek to the English.

    While your praying for me, make sure you ask God, to start to reaveal the truth to you OK?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

     

    #868168
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    t8 Man you keep bringing me back.

    You said:
    “Lionel Messi is the greatest footballer of all time. Okay that is an opinion even though he has the stats, but let’s run with it regardless. Neymar is also a great footballer, He is not the greatest. He may become the greatest, some would argue that he is the greatest right now, but right now he is not the greatest of all time.
    So your argument would be that Messi is a human and Neymar is a human, so they are both the greatest.”

    No, absolutely not.
    My argument is that even if Messi is the greatest footballer that would make him not superior in being!
    That’s my argument!

    Let’s try another analogy:
    I am “greater” than my son in that I have authority over him and am responsible for him. But as humans, we are equal. I am not more human than he; neither is he more human than me.

    The same applies to God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

    Only Jesus shares the essence of His Father.
    We will never. That’s heresy. Otherwise we will be equal to God.
    2 Peter 1:4…The Geneva Study Bible commentary says:
    By the divine nature he means not the substance of the Godhead, but the partaking of those qualities, by which the image of God is restored in us.

    #868169
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen Danny
    I share your point of view.

     

    #868171
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Praise the Lord

    #868174
    Ed J
    Participant

    Carmel……At least Jodi and I don’t change word meanings, except where STRONG shows them as mistranlated, from the Greek to the English.

    While your praying for me, make sure you ask God, to start to reaveal the truth to you OK?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    Really Gene???

    To you “Freewill” doesn’t mean freewill…

    “which are minded of their own freewill” (Ezra 7:13)

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