John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,461 through 21,480 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #867965
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    God bless you, brother.

    #867966
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jesus christ, is GOD the  fathers work in another human being,  not his work in another GOD.

    All those who believe Jesus was a GOD,  doing the work of a God “himself”  are unable to believe that GOD THE FATHER  was indeed ‘IN” the man Jesus.  So in calling Jesus a God, they make Jesus who said ‘THE FATHER WAS “IN” HIM,  out to be a liar. 

    Jesus also clearly said ” he could do “nothing” of himself,  saying  the Father that was in him, he was the one doing the work.  

    Tell us Berean  why would a God,  need another God , to do the work ““IN” him.  If he were already a God?  PLEASE Don’t give us this false  idea  he dumped all his GODLINESS,   to become a human so thats why he couldn’t use it garbage.   

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #867967
    carmel
    Participant

     

    .

    #867968
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Edjand all,

    How come when it pertains to Jesus it makes him GOD
    but when it pertains to us it doesn’t make us GOD???

    ME: IN FULL HUMILITY

     

    THERE IS ONLY ONE

    SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HUMANS!

    JESUS!

    Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not of one:

    but God is one.

    WHEN IT COMES TO HUMANS A MEDIATOR IS ALSO A HUMAN, BETWEEN

    HUMANS’ SUBSTANCE.

    WHEN IT COMES TO GOD,  A MEDIATOR BETWEEN

    GOD’S SUBSTANCE  AND HUMANS’ SUBSTANCE THERE IS ONLY

    JESUS,

    THE

    SON/DIVINE,

    OF MAN

    ONLY HE IS THE SAME SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER AND HUMANS! HOW?

    AS ONLY 

    “THE WORD”,

    JESUS THE SON OF MAN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING

    THE ACTUAL BEGINNING OF ALL BEGINNINGS, ON

    THE FIRST EVER SPOKEN WORD OF GOD

    “LET THERE BE LIGHT” WAS

    ENGRAFTED

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE ENDLESS SPIRITS 

    EMANATED FROM GOD  AD-EXTRA THROUGH

    THE HOLY GHOST, THE LOVE AND THE VOICE OF GOD, the Female entity of God! 

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS OF THE HOLY GHOST!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD’S LOVE!

    BY WHICH SPIRITS, THE EVENTUAL ENTIRE CREATION, AD-EXTRA, 

    WAS ENLIGHTENED THE ENTIRE INFINITE

    EXISTENCE! ATTENTION PLEASE!!!

    ALL THESE SPIRITS THOUGH EXISTED AND ALIVE, AS THERE IS NO DEATH WITHIN GOD, FROM WHICH THEY WERE EMANATED,

    THEY WERE NOT AWARE OF THEIR EXISTENCE!

    SIMPLY, AS THEY WERE ALIVE ONLY AS

    A PHYSICAL LIGHT,

    PRECISELY ALIVE ONLY PHYSICALLY NOT SPIRITUALLY BY

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON/DIVINE OF MAN YET TO BE, 

    THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR! the reason that 

    HE ACTUALLY IS

    ETERNAL LIFE, who came out of 

    THE HOLY GHOST, 

    THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT AS!

    THE LIFE OF ALL 

    PHYSICAL John17:2.

    THEN THE FATHER

    THE LIFE OF ALL SPIRITS

    INTEGRATED

    AND BECAME

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH 

    “THE WORD” JESUS, 

    THE SON/DIVINE OF MAN YET TO BE! I repeat:

    THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN

    THE PHYSICAL ELEMENT AD-EXTRA AND

    THE SPIRIT ELEMENT AD-INTRA!

    HENCE BECAME AWARE OF THEMSELVES AND OF GOD!

    FROM THAN ON

    ALL POSSIBLE FOR GOD! EVEN IN ONE INSTANT 

    TO CREATE ALL, ONCE

    HE PRONOUNCED

    ” THE WORD”  attributed to

    JESUS, THE SON/DIVINE OF MAN. yet to be!

    BY WHICH SPIRIT, HE CREATED

    THE BEGINNING OF EVERY CREATURE

    LUCIFER, MALE AND FEMALE androgynous! 

    A FULLY LUMINOUS CREATURE WITH 

    ONE DIVINE/CREATURE HEART BETWEEN

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON/DIVINE OF MAN YET TO BE, AND 

    LUCIFER!

    THE FEMALE ELEMENT OF CREATION YET TO BE.

    THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT

    THE  MORNING STAR

    THE FACT THAT BOTH JESUS AND LUCIFER ARE

    THE MORNING STAR

    All the above is not MINE INVENTION! 90% WAS ALREADY REVEALED BY GOD BEFORE BY OTHERS FOR ALL TO READ, WHILE MYSELF I WAS DEFINITELY GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT TO BE AWARE OF IT IN MORE DETAIL.

    DESPITE I NEVER STUDIED ANYTHING RELATED TO ANY RELIGION OR BELIEF EXCEPT AS A CHILD TILL THE AGE OF 14.

    15 YEARS AGO I SIMPLY TOOK A VITAL DECISION AND PROMISED JESUS, THE ONLY GODMAN ON EARTH, THAT I WILL ABANDON THIS PHYSICAL MORTAL WORLD FOR THE SAKE OF ETERNAL LIFE; 

    THE TRUTH ABOUT HIM,

    AS SOON I BECAME AWARE OF ALL THESE DIFFERENT RELIGIONS AND BELIEFS, OF WHICH I HAD NOT THE SLIGHTEST,  WHILE BROWSING/SEARCHING   ON THE INTERNET, FROM WHERE I WAS BORN IN THE SPIRIT AFTER I MET 

    THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH!

    IRONICALLY INSTIGATED BY SOMEONE WHO CALLED

    THE IMAGE OF

    “DIVINE MERCY JESUS” THE DEVIL,

    FROM THAN ON IT WAS A STORY BETWEEN THE HOLY SPIRIT AND ME!

    A SPIRITUAL AND LUMINOUS STORY WHICH I EXPERIENCED AND STILL DO

    BIT BY BIT EVERY DAY!

    Psalm1:1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly,

    nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

    2But his delight is in the law of the LORD;

    and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

    3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water,

    that bringeth forth his fruit in his season;

    his leaf also shall not wither;

    and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    #867987
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    You are still attacking strawman and you still don’t get my point.
    I don’t deny that God is the head of Christ.
    And I don’t deny that man is the head of woman.
    But being the head of someone doesn’t make you superior in being!
    Let me make it easy for you.
    The head of the woman is man. Ok.
    But does this mean that the husband is a superior being to his wife?
    The answer is obviously, “No.” The husband is greater than his wife by way of position but not by nature.
    The same applies to the Father and the Son. The Father is greater by position, but not better by nature.
    I’m not a Trinitarian, by the way. Stop attacking strawman. Thank you and God bless you.

    #867988
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..What a maze, you run through to twist up our scriptures. So, MOSES AND THE “OTHER” PROPHETS,  themselves were no true “mediators”, between God and men right?  God the Father used many mediators before Jesus was ever born,  had you noticed it say “BUT UNTO “US”  Those who have the Spirit of God in them, true Saint’s of God, bothers of the man Jesus.  “UNTO “US” THERE IS “ONE” GOD AND “ONE” MEDIATOR BETWEEN MEN AND GOD “THE MAN” JESUS. 

    IT’S JUST UNBELIEVABLE,  how much you can twist up our scriptures, . You have been decieved more then almost anyone I have ever seen here since I have been posting here.  Tell me are you a Catholic preacher,  you must be to be that scripturely screwed up.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #867989
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But does this mean that the husband is a superior being to his wife?
    The answer is obviously, “No.” The husband is greater than his wife by way of position but not by nature.
    The same applies to the Father and the Son. The Father is greater by position, but not better by nature.

    This was precisely the point I was making. Identity vs nature.

    For example, God is a Spirit. If nature makes you equal, then the angels who are spirits are equal to God as they too are spirits.

    But in identity, God is greater than the angels and also too the son of God. Because one is the Father and the others came from him. God is the Father of spirits.

    As for the woman, she came from man and the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is of the Church. Christ is the bridegroom and we are the bride.

    There is a divine order that some so-called Christian doctrines actually oppose.

    #867992
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    2 Peter 1:4…The Geneva Study Bible commentary says:
    “By the divine nature he means not the substance of the Godhead, but the partaking of those qualities, by which the image of God is restored in us.”

    Only Jesus shares the exact same nature as His Father. Because Jesus is the ONLY begotten of the Father. John 1:14

    I am not so sure about that Danny. Jesus is the son of God and we are sons of God. And he calls us brother. We are part of the same family as him. God never calls us brothers. To him we are his children.

    Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

    Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

    Clearly then, we are the same kind of being as Jesus, that is children of God.

    Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

    So both Jesus and us are sons and children of God. We are never brothers to God and God and Jesus are not brothers. It is written that we will even have the same glorious body as he does.

    who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

    When we are born from above, we are given the new nature. If not, then we would still be of the flesh and die in our sins. Instead, we are born again, but we remain in a state of flux awaiting our resurrection bodies which will put as at rest and always toward the divine and without sin.

    So yes Jesus was begotten of the Father, but what do you suppose this new birth is?

    “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come”

    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    See. We too are begotten of God.

    The difference between us and him is this. He is the prototype son. He is not God as many propose, just as we are not God.

    #868002
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel…..What a maze, you run through to twist up our scriptures. So, MOSES AND THE “OTHER” PROPHETS,  themselves were no true “mediators”, between God and men right?

    ME; FROM THE ABOVE IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT EITHER I WAS NOT CLEAR ENOUGH, WHICH IS QUITE NORMAL,  YOU DIDN’T READ PROPERLY WHAT I POSTED OR ELSE YOU SIMPLY SELECTED THE WORDS WHICH PLEASED YOUR CARNAL MENTALITY AND EVEN IGNORED

    SCRIPTURE ITSELF, WHERE IT CLEARLY DECLARES THAT JESUS IS NOT

    A HUMAN BEING IDENTICAL AS HUMANS OF EARTH ARE. 

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS

    OF THE HOLY GHOST AND 

    ONLY BORN

    IN ALL THINGS LIKE HUMANS, 

    IF YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS!

    NO YOU DON’T

    I TELL YOU:

    NOT OF HUMAN SPERM, OVUM, DNA, AND

    ALL THE SATANIC GARBAGE HUMANS OF EARTH ARE MADE FROM!

    GOD IS A SPIRIT

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO HIS OWN WORK, IT IS 

    HIS SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL OF HIS WORK!

    DO YOU ACCEPT WHAT GOD IS, HIS POWER, HIS WISDOM,  AND THAT HE DOES NOT REQUIRE THE LEAST SPECK OF THIS SATANIC EARTH,

    HIS WORK OUT OF HIS SPIRIT SUBSTANCE AD-EXTRA BUT CORRUPTED,  IN ORDER TO

    SEND THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, SPIRIT 

    EMBODIED IN A UNIQUE

    SON/DIVINE OF MAN

    IN FLESH!

    READ Gene

    Isaiah 66:9 SHALL NOT I

    that make others to bring forth children,

    MYSELF (SPIRIT) bring forth,

    saith the Lord?

    SHALL I  (SPIRIT)

    that give generation to others,

    BE BARREN

    saith the Lord thy God?

     

    NOW WITHOUT TWISTING THE SCRIPTURE HEREUNDER EXPLAIN ON HEAVENNET WHAT ARE

    THE CHARACTERISTICS AND CREDENTIALS  OF JESUS AND 

    PLEASE JUST NAME

    ONE HUMAN BEING WHO WALKED ON EARTH WITH THE SAME

    CHARACTERISTICS AND CREDENTIALS OF JESUS:

    NEVER MIND MOSES AND ALL THE PROPHETS!

    WHO CAME ON EARTH AND ONLY PROCLAIMED

    JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE, AND HIS UNIQUE DIVINE TASK EVEN

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

    BY THE WAY, PERHAPS YOU FORGOT, READ WHAT 

    THE UNIQUE PERSON WHO WALKED ON EARTH, AND WHO IS 

    MORE THAN A PROPHET, 

    SAID ABOUT JESUS!

    MATTHEW 3:11 I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance,

    but he that shall come after me,

    is MIGHTIER THAN I, (GOD’S OWN ANGEL, PRE-EXISTED) whose shoes I am not worthy to bear;

    he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire. 

    NOW ENJOY!!! Gene, read

    HEBREWS 1:3Who being

    the brightness of his (FATHER’S)

    GLORY (name another human Gene with this glory)

    and the figure of his(FATHER’S)

    SUBSTANCE,(name another human Gene with this substance)

    and upholding all things by THE WORD of his (FATHER’S)

    POWER, ( name another human Gene with this 

    POWER )

    YOU: God the Father used many mediators before Jesus was ever born,

    THE PROBLEM WITH YOU Gene, IS

    THAT JESUS  WAS ONLY BORN ON EARTH AND 

    NEVER PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT, 

    THE SON OF THE FATHER WHO IS A SPIRIT

    DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT ONE STAGE WE ALL WERE ALSO SPIRITS!

     

    YOU AND JODI SIMPLY IGNORE THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE:

    John 1:1IN the beginning was the Word,

    and the Word was with God, and

    the Word was God. 

    2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

    14 And the Word was made flesh,

    and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke:

    He that shall come after me,

    is preferred before me: because he was before me.

    YOU BELIEVE THAT JOHN PRE-EXISTED AND WAS SENT FROM GOD

    From the other hand, YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN JESUS’PRE-EXISTENCE DESPITE

    HE IS MIGHTIER AND BEFORE JOHN!

    Matthew 11:11 Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women

    a greater than John the Baptist:

    yet he (JESUS)

    that is the lesser in the kingdom of heaven

    is greater than he. 

     

    YOU: had you noticed it say “BUT UNTO “US”  Those who have the Spirit of God in them, true Saint’s of God, bothers of the man Jesus.

    ME: ONLY ON HIS RESURRECTION! NOT ON HIS BIRTH!

    THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM ALL THE DEAD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS BOTH CAPTIVES IN HELL AND ON EARTH!

    ORIGINALLY A SPIRIT SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD.Rev.13:8

     

    YOU: “UNTO “US” THERE IS “ONE” GOD AND “ONE” MEDIATOR BETWEEN MEN AND GOD “THE MAN” JESUS.

    NOW READ WHAT I POSTED:

    THERE IS ONLY ONE

    SPIRIT/MEDIATOR!

    NOT JUST A MEDIATOR, JESUS IS THE FATHER’S/SPIRIT SUBSTANCE!

    HE IS BOTH A MEDIATOR BETWEEN

    HUMANS IN FLESH AND BETWEEN

    SPIRITS AS SOULS! 

    HEBREWS 4:12 For the word of God

    is living and effectual,

    and more piercing than any two edged sword;

    and reaching unto

    the division of the soul and the spirit,

    of the joints also and the marrow, 

    READ AGAIN NOW

    Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not of one:

    but God is one.

    FROM GOD’S SIDE

    SPIRIT,

    ONLY GOD HIMSELF IN JESUS IS JUSTIFIED. WHY?

    WHEN IT COMES TO HUMANS A MEDIATOR IS ALSO A HUMAN, BETWEEN

    HUMANS’ SUBSTANCE.

    WHEN IT COMES TO GOD,  A MEDIATOR BETWEEN

    GOD’S SUBSTANCE  AND HUMANS’ SUBSTANCE

    THERE IS ONLY

    JESUS,

    THE

    SON/DIVINE,

    OF MAN

    ONLY HE IS

    THE SAME SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER AND HUMANS!

    HOW?

    AS ONLY 

    “THE WORD”,

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING

    A SPIRIT John1:1

    THE ACTUAL BEGINNING OF ALL BEGINNINGS, ON

    THE FIRST EVER SPOKEN WORD OF GOD

    “LET THERE BE LIGHT” WAS

    ENGRAFTED

    ONE SUBSTANCE

    WITH THE ENDLESS SPIRITS 

    EMANATED FROM GOD  AD-EXTRA THROUGH

    THE HOLY GHOST, THE LOVE AND THE VOICE OF GOD, the Female entity of God! 
    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS OF THE HOLY GHOST!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD’S LOVE!

    YOU SIMPLY LOOK AT JESUS ONLY

    AS FLESH SUBSTANCE AND 

    IGNORING THE PURE FACT THAT HE IS ALSO

    THE FATHER’S SUBSTANCE!

    UNIQUE!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #868020
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer,   your post # 868002,  is the  most excellent”  Post I have ever seen you post. Seems my,  our,  prayers for you has been answered. Jesus is indeed the human ““pro-type” of what God the Father had in mind for “his human creation” from the very beginning,  this “pro-type” is the exact reason for all the pysical creation.

    He, Jesus,  has now recieved what we will also recieved at our  resurection, because he “IS” the first born of “MANY” Brethern” and we truly are “HEIRS AND JOINT HEIRS WITH HIM. 

    NOW kick this “prexistence” thing and you will be dead on brother? THINK ABOUT THIS PROCLAIMER, what point would it make , if God made a “prefect prexisting being”  and passed him off as a man, prove to anyone?  But if he took the DNA from the family of KING DAVID, and put that in the womb of a women , Mary,  and she bore a real human being,  born exactly in every way like the rest of GOD’S HUMAN CREATION, and perfected him and raised him from the dead m and gave him great honour and Glory, and put all thing under his feet, like he plans to do with the rest of us, giving  us honour and Glory and putting all things under our feet also, just like he did Jesus. Think about that Proclaimer, what a “wonderful ” point that would make to all humanity.

    We who have the Spirit of God in us and Jesus are the  “exact same” in “every” way,  “as he was so are  we brother. Do not move Jesus’ idenity away from yourself brother. He is “now” what we are to be. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #868021
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel….. scripture says  “the MAN” Jesus,  Which i see you conveniently left out.   Look we all “realize what you post, but the problem is thats not exactly the way it is written in our scriptures, and therein lies the problem,  what you are posting shows you have been greatly decieved in the past and  as a result  are not able to truly understand the truth of our scriptures, and so you mix and match the “Catholic” corruption of our scriptures. That might have worked back when your teachers killed anyone who had bibles,  back them, and only spoke to their people in  Latin, so they couldn’t understand,   but now we all have the scriptures, that we can read for ourselves. So you deceptions no longer work. EXCEPT ON THE BLIND,  IMO

    REPENT CARMEL,

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

    #868023
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You will NEVER be able to prove that THE SON OF GOD DID NOT PRE-EXIST
    AND YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT HE IS NOT GOD (BEING LEFT FROM THE FATHER)
    YOU LOSE PRECIOUS TIME IN WISHING TO DEMONSTRATE WHAT IS INDEMETABLE.

    Berean

    #868025
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    But the Bible calls Jesus clearly the ONLY-begotten Son of God.

    “In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” 1 John 4:9

    Only means only!

    #868028
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Obviously he was the only one but because of him. we are now born from God ourselves and not by flesh and blood. He calls us brothers but he is and always will be the prototype son.

    And yes, he will always be the only one to come directly from God.  I think we both agree with that. Whereas we came from Adam, but have abandoned that lineage by being born into God’s family later on.

    If he came directly from God before the universe existed, then by what was he derived? Only God. Some think this makes him God, but it makes him the only begotten son of God. God is the source of all things, even the son of God.

    #868031
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    The Bible calls Jesus “only begotten“. I’ll stick with the Bible!

    #868032
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny Dabbs,…….The key is in what way he was begotten? , was it when he was born on this earth,  was it before he was born on this earth, or was it when he was “born again” after he was born on this earth? 

    JESUS SAID,  “YOU “MUST” BE BORN AGAIN”, so, was Jesus not the first man to be “BORN AGAIN”   from above, born of the “fullness” of God the Father’s, Holy Spirit after his baptizim by John in  the Jordan river? AND WAS HE NOT THE FIRST “human being” to be resurected,  after death, back to life again?  

    True believers answer…..YES

    False believers answer…..NO

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene.

     

     

     

    #868033
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer,  Jesus was not the “only” one that came from God,  “ADAM AND EVE” CAME “DIRECTLY” FROM GOD. 

    Jesus did not come directly from God, he came from Adams and Eve’s , offspring,  “Abraham”,  according to scriptures. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #868036
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer,  Jesus was not the “only” one that came from God,  “ADAM AND EVE” CAME “DIRECTLY” FROM GOD.

    Not so.

    1. Eve came through Adam.
    2. Adam was created from things already created like the dust of the earth. The spirit that made him a living soul came from God. That is the same spirit that makes us live too.

    Whereas, Jesus was born through Mary because he came in the flesh.

    Before that, he was sent from Heaven and is now back in Heaven in the glory he had before the universe. God made the universe through the son of God. His name is the Word of God and all things were made through him. And obviously, he wasn’t made through himself.

    #868037
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Bible calls Jesus “only begotten“. I’ll stick with the Bible!

    Good to hear. Great advice.

    #868040
    carmel
    Participant

    .

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