John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,401 through 21,420 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #867294
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean….. the word “the” is a definite article,   that means that is what he “really” is. Your word games,  is simply you trying to foce our text to say what infact it is not saying. If I say “a car” or “the car”,  both are referring to “a” car ,  a car is any car, the car is a specific or paticular  car, but both are referring to a car.  

    Jesus “is” exactly what he said he is,  “a specific  Son of man”.   No matter how much you try to twist the scriptures to force them to say what they in fact are not saying, it will not work, espically on those who have the “spirit of truth in them” , you or no one else “can” decieve them who have the Spirit of truth “in” them, it is not even possible to. 

    Berean……here is another scripture you can twist up,

    Acts 7: 37….. This is that Moses, which said unto the childern of Israel, “A” prophet shall the Lord your God  raise up unto you “of” (from) your “brethern”, “LIKE UNTO ME” ; him shall you hear”. 

    Interesting Moses sure didn’t think Jesus was to come from any past existence,  he said that Jesus would come from one of the tribes of Isreal.  Seems you and Moses disagree with each other.

    Another statement you made wrong,

    Acts 7:55…..”but he, being “full of the Holy Gost (holy Spirit) , looked Into heaven, and saw  the Glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.  Seems Jesus was not the only one “full” of the Holy Spirit. 

    Seems Stephen was “himself full of the Holy Spirit, and he only saw “one” God, and the “man” Jesus standing at his right side.  

    Tell us why didn’t he see “two” God’s  their, If Jesus is a God to?,  and please don’t give me this trinitarian “essence”, mystery thing.  thats what you people use to cloud the truth? 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

     

     

    #867295
    Berean
    Participant

    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    [9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead(deity) (Colossians 2:8,9)

    In Stephen there was no fullness of divinity.
    It is one thing to be filled with the Holy Spirit and another to have the fullness of divinity bodily.
    Jesus had / has BOTH.

    #867296
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. …..O really,

    2 Peter 1 : 3-4  According as his ‘devine” power has given unto us “all” things that pertain unto life and Godliness, through the knowledge of him that has called us to glory and virtue:  whereby are given unto us exceeding great precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the “devine nature”, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 

    So now where is there a scripture that say Jesus is “full” of devine nature and we are not or cannot be.

    You people never stop trying to make Jesus out to be complete different being then the rest of his human “brothers and sisters” do you? 

    Berean Your doing exactly what Satan wants you to do and don’t’even know it. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #867297
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You don’t differentiate between being filled with the Spirit of God and having the Divine nature (being God)

    #867306
    carmel
    Participant

     

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    #867307
    carmel
    Participant

     

    HI Gene,

    YOU: you people preach and believe Jesus is your Saviour,

    and how to Worship him,

       I preach and believe GOD THE FATHER IS MY SAVIOUR

    and the Saviour of all mankind and THE “MAN”, Jesus also.

     

    Gene you simply LIVE not just TALK 

    LIES

    Read:

    Philippians 3:7 But the things that were gain to me,

    the same I have counted loss for Christ.

    OK Gene?  FOR US HUMANS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY OR ELSE

    ETERNAL DAMNATION! Keep on reading:

    8Furthermore I count all things to be but

    loss

    for the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord;

    for whom I have suffered

    the loss of all things,

    and count them but as dung,

    that I may gain Christ:

    9And may be found

    in him,

    not having my justice, which is of the law,

    but that which is of the faith of Christ Jesus,

    which is of God, (IN CHRIST) justice in faith:

    10That I may know

    him,(CHRIST) and the power of

    his resurrection,

    and the fellowship of

    HIS SUFFERING,

    being made conformable to

    HIS DEATH, 

    11If by any means I may attain to the resurrection which is from the dead.

    17Be ye followers of me, brethren, and observe them who walk so as you have our model. 18For many walk, of whom I have told you often (and now tell you weeping), that they are enemies of the cross of Christ; 19Whose end is destruction; whose God is their belly; and whose glory is in their shame; who mind earthly things.

     20But our conversation is in heaven;

    ATTENTION Gene:

    from whence also we look for the Saviour, our Lord Jesus Christ,

    READ MORE TRUTH!

     21Who will reform the body of our lowness,

    made like to the body of his glory,

    according to the operation whereby also

    he is able to subdue all things unto himself.

    DID YOU NOTICE GENE THAT IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE

    GOD THE FATHER IS NOT MENTIONED SIMPLY 

    AS ONLY JESUS CHRIST IS

    GOD OF ALL FLESH

    GODMAN;

    FOR US HUMANS IN FLESH, THE LOST.

    NOT GOD THE FATHER! WE AS HUMANS IN ADAM OUR SPIRITUAL FATHER  BY HIS SIN

    REJECTED GOD THE FATHER SPIRIT! AND 

    GOD THE FATHER FURNISHED  US AND SENT 

    HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, SPIRIT/MEDIATOR  AS MAN, BETWEEN HIS FATHER AND US HUMANS,

    AS THE ONLY SAVIOUR AND OUR OWN KIND HUMAN GOD!

    WE BELIEVE IN JESUS  WE BELIEVE IN THE FATHER!

    John14:9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father?

    THUS THROUGH HIM WE GAIN GOD THE FATHER SPIRIT AGAIN, WHOM

    ADAM OUR SPIRITUAL FATHER, REJECTED.

    JESUS SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BEFORE HIS PASSION THROUGH HIS HOLY LIFE BY WHICH ACT

    HE SPIRITUALIZED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

    ALL IN HIM,

    IN ORDER TO BE ACCEPTED BY THE FATHER.

    ASSERTED IN

    John15:1 I AM the true vine;

    and my Father is the husbandman.

    ( WE AS HUMANS ARE IN JESUS,

    IN HIS EMBODIMENT:

    THE FIRSTFRUIT; WE WERE BORN, BAPTIZED, SUFFERED, DIED, RESURRECTED AND GLORIFIED IN HIM  )

    READ:

    2Every branch IN ME,

    that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now you are clean by reason of

    THE WORD,(SINGULAR: HIS SPIRIT) 

    which I have spoken to you.

    4Abide in me,(IN JESUS’SPIRIT) and I in you.(HIS SPIRIT “THE WORD” IN US)

    As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine,

    so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

    (NOT IN GOD THE FATHER, NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT JESUS)

     5I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    ATTENTION Gene:

     

    for without me you can do nothing.

    NO JESUS NO SALVATION!

    NO JESUS NO GOD!!!!

    READ:

     6If anyone abide not in me,

    he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up,

    and cast him into the fire, and he burneth.

    THINK ABOUT IT Gene!!!

    7If you abide in me, and my words (PLURAL: JESUS’ SPIRITUAL TEACHINGS THE NARROW ROAD) abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.

    8In this is my Father glorified;

    that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples.

    9As the Father(SPIRIT)  hath loved me, (THE SON OF MAN IN FLESH) 

    I (SPIRIT/MEDIATOR, SPIRIT/FLESH, BETWEEN THE FATHER AND HIS CREATURES) also have loved you.

    Abide in my love.

    10If you keep my commandments, (SPIRITUAL) you shall abide in my love;

    as I also have kept my Father’s commandments,(SPIRITUAL)

    and do abide in his love.

    11These things (SPIRITUAL)I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you,(AS A SPIRIT) and

    your joy (OF GOD THE FATHER) may be filled.(BY JESUS’ SPIRIT IN US)

    YOU: and how to Worship him

    WE WORSHIP JESUS AS IT IS THE ONLY WAY

    TO WORSHIP THE FATHER!

    John5:21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life:

    so the Son also giveth life

    to whom he will.

    (EVEN TO HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD)

    22For neither doth the Father judge any man, but hath given all judgment to the Son.

     23That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father.

    ATTENTION Gene:

    He who honoureth not the Son,

    honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #867310
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..if you truly believed what Jesus said, then you would know Jesus alway said and showed us that it was his God that saved him and raised him up from death,  he alway gave God the Father the Glory,  for not only his life but his SALVATION also, he is the Way We need to , in our relationship with the Father inorder to be saved and that way is to put all of our Faith in God the Father  just as he did. 

    As far as who is lying goes, it is you , because you say and  preach you’re  God is Jesus, and you trust in him for your salvation,  you say that,  but you do not do or believe in what he said,  or you would know it is God the Father who save us , just as he saved , “the man” Jesus. 

    Jesus said this to God the Father, in prayer,  “I have glorified “YOU” on the earth”,   if you were obeying him you would be doing the same thing?  but you have replaced your God with Jesus, something Jesus never did. 

    You obscure  the meaning of nearly every scripture you post. Change the wording to fit you false concepts.  You may call me,  a liar, but it is you who have bought into the biggest “lie” ever told, and worse yet,  preach it,  2ths2.  

    Time is short , you had better start to getting  things right Carmel. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

    #867314
    Berean
    Participant

    Unitarians deny the divinity of Jesus, they are not in the faith handed down to the saints once and for all (Jude 1: 3) Believing in the divinity of Christ does not mean believing in the Trinity, for there is only one God Father YAHWEH.
    BECAUSE JESUS IS GOD’S OWN SON (Rom. 8: 3), HE IS GOD BY NATURE.
    THE JEWS CRUCIFIED OUR LORD, THEY DIDN’T BELIEVE WHAT HE “IS”

    John 8: [24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    #867315
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..I believe Jesus is exactly he said he is, where are you getting the idea I don’t believe that from. I am not saying  Jesus dosen’t  have the devine nature, what I quoted to you from scripture was so do those who are being saved.  Having a devine Nature , does not make you a GOD OR A DEITY.   AS far as a son of God goes, all true believer are Son’s of God,  is that not what scripture says ,” know you not that “NOW” you are The SONS OF GOD” ? 

    I AM NOT SAYING Jesus is not our lord or master either,  he is the head of the church of God. Who’s questing that? Not me , did he die for our sins ?, YES, he did,  but does that make him then not a real human being exactly like us, no it dosen’t.   He is a 100% pure human being who God Perfected , giving him his Spirit at the Jordan river, where he was born again by the Spirit of the Living God, the same thing has to happen to us  we must be born again of the Spirit exactly like him.

    Inorder for us to be a Son of God we must have the seed (spirit) of God the Father in us also. In order for us, like him,  to over come this world and sin.

    “who soever over comes, even as I have, I will grant to sit with me in my Kingdom, even as I have overcome and  am sit down in my Father’s kingdom. ,  it’s the same for us as for him, get it?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #867318
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    “I believe Jesus is exactly what he said he is, where does the idea come from that I don’t believe. I’m not saying that Jesus doesn’t have divine nature, which I have you quoted in the scriptures, so are those who are saved. ”

    Me

    When the bible speaks of the divine nature of Jesus it means what is written in John 1: 1
    Those who are saved do not have the divine nature because they are human beings but they can participate in the divine nature as Peter says through the Holy Spirit.
    ONLY GOD THE FATHER AND HIS BEGOTTEN SON HAVE DIVINE NATURE: THEY ARE GOD.

    Hebrews 1: 3(about Jésus)
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Colossians 1:15(idem)
    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    #867332
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  …they believe Jesus is “himself” God’s word…

    Gene, they don’t believe Jesus is a literal word that God spoke.  See if you can follow this…

    The King of Abyssinia had a spokesman called “Kal Hatze” – which means “the word of the king”.  This spokesman had “The Word of the King” as one of his NAMES.  He wasn’t a literal word, but he was a person who was NAMED “The Word of the King”.  So if someone said, “The King and his word are going to lunch together today”, they weren’t talking about the King having lunch with his literal words, but about the King having lunch with his spokesman.

    Can you understand this?  Okay then…

    God has a spokesman called “The Word of God”.  This spokesman has “The Word of God” as one of his NAMES.  He isn’t a literal word that God spoke, but instead a PERSON who was NAMED “The Word of God”.  So if someone said, “God and his Word are going to lunch together today”, it wouldn’t mean that God was having lunch with his literal words, but that God was having lunch with his SPOKEMAN who has the NAME “The Word”.

    Do you understand what I’ve written?  Do you have any questions or comments?

    #867334
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: The Father speaking to the Son

    And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands…

    Berean, where can I read that the Father said these words to the Son?  Why would the Father (Jesus’ own God) call Jesus his Lord?  And why would the Father tell us that He alone created all things, but then turn around and tell us that his son did?

    #867336
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed: Hi Mike,

    Your wording suggests Jesus helped in creation,
    which goes against the verse you just cited.

    Could it not instead simply be by Jesus crucifixion, that
    that is how God created the heavens and Earth “through” Jesus?
    Then that would not violate God creating the heaven and earth “ALONE”

    BUT if Jesus helped in ANY manor as you appear to be suggesting – that WOULD violate the verse.

    I don’t know what it means exactly that God created all things through Jesus.  But in Genesis, God clearly says, “Let US create man in our image…”, right?  So wouldn’t that also go against God creating all things LITERALLY alone and LITERALLY by himself?

    No, I don’t all all think God somehow poetically created the heavens and the earth through the crucifixion of Jesus thousands of years later.  Nor do I find any violation in my understanding.  To me, it would be like saying Bill Gates – and ONLY Bill Gates –  created Microsoft.  That would be a true statement, despite the fact that many underlings were involved in its creation.

    #867338
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If God created all things alone, then he created me alone. Through my parents however. There is a process. God > Christ > Man.

    #867339
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Likewise, God alone created you, but He did that THROUGH your parents.

    Ed:  If he did it “through” our parents, then he DIDN’T do it alone.

    Your logic fails!

    Yet the morning stars sang and the sons of God shouted for joy when God – alone and all by himself – laid the foundations of the earth.  And God said, “Let US make man…”

    I believe my logic is as sound as Job’s and God’s.  You are free to disagree.

    #867340
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If he did it “through” our parents, then he DIDN’T do it alone.

    Your logic fails!

    Really? Then reality fails.

    #867342
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Mike your reasoning above makes PERFECT SENSE,

    ONLY WHEN IT IS A REFERENCE TO HUMAN BEINGS. 

    HOW ON EARTH

    YOU PUT GOD, CREATOR, IN THE SAME BASKET AS HUMANS, HIS CREATURES

    No I don’t, nor have I done that.  Jesus is the Word (spokesman) OF God, just as Kal Hatze was the Word (spokesman) OF the King of Abyssinia.

    You need to learn/remember what the word “OF” means, Carmel.  If I am the son OF the President, than it is impossible for me to BE the President that I am the son OF.

    And the fact that (according to scripture) Jesus is the Son, Prophet, Messiah, Lamb, Word, Priest, Holy One, Creation and Holy Servant OF God makes it impossible for him to BE the very God he is all those things OF.

    #867345
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: IN SUMMARY
    BEFORE ABRAHAM COMES INTO EXISTENCE,

    JESUS SAYS:

    I AM

    Berean, let’s switch “I AM” (which you think God’s name means) with God’s actual name as best we know it, “YHVH”.

    So in your understanding, Jesus said, “Before Abraham existed, YHVH!”  What would that even mean?

    In order for Jesus to have been making a claim of BEING God, he would need to have said, “Before Abraham was, I WAS God”, or “I WAS YHVH”, or “I WAS I AM”.

    Many scholars – including the 25 Trinitarians who produced the NET Bible – think that God’s name has to do with “existing”, but can’t say whether “YHVH” means “I AM” or “I WILL BE”.

    Here’s a clip from the NET notes on Ex 3:14…

    Some commentators argue for a future tense translation, “I will be who I will be,” because the verb has an active quality about it, and the Israelites lived in the light of the promises for the future. They argue that “I am” would be of little help to the Israelites in bondage. 

    The bottom line is that nobody today can say that God’s name actually means “I AM”.  And even if it does, Jesus still would have had to say, “Before Abraham was, I WAS ALREADY EXISTING AS I AM” for him to be making a claim of BEING God.

    #867349
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @berean
    Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.

    If you asked me if I was Proclaimer, then I could say, “I am”. And nobody in their right mind would think that I was claiming to be YHWH.

    ‘I am’ is simply a common response from people when asked if they are a particular person. Still in use to this very day. ‘I am’ has implications of existence of course as their is the understanding that if you are asked if you are Berean, then you reply, ‘I am’, which means yes you exist as Berean. And the fact that ‘ego’ is one of the words tells you that. And if God is the ‘I Am’, then he is the existing one.

    #867381
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Mike and Proclaimer

    In fact that is not what I meant. I just meant that before Abraham came into existence, the Son of God existed.
    But still to say about Exodus 3, about the “I AM” … Later maybe …

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