John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,421 through 21,440 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #867408
    Ed J
    Participant

    @princess

    i miss T

    You mean Pierre?

    yes

    Terraricca

    #867412
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……Good post.

    I believe it should be translated as “I am that I am ” meaning  I exist,  because I exist, as in the self existence one.  

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #867451
    carmel
    Participant

    No I don’t, nor have I done that.  Jesus is the Word (spokesman) OF God, just as Kal Hatze was the Word (spokesman) OF the King of Abyssinia.

    Me: Yes Mike, you are putting God in the same basket with the king of Abyssinia.

    Abyssinia is a mortal human being his word is nothing.

    God is the creator and  his word is

    SPIRIT and LIFE!!!

    JESUS. THE SON OF MAN

    When God pronounces his word the endless spirits which come out from the mouth of God,

    COMPRESSES THEMSELVES TO THE EXTENT THAT FORMS WHATEVER GOD WANTS ACCORDING TO HIS WILL EVEN INSTANTLY. 

    NOW THE ONLY SOLUTION BY WHICH GOD COMPRESSES, BUILDS, FORMS, AND ACHIEVES HIS WORK IN THE ENDLESS CREATURES AND DIFFERENT BODIES IS PRECISELY

    THE WORD/SPIRIT SPOKEN OF GOD 

    JESUS!

    THE CARRIER OF THE FATHER.

    IT IS THROUGH HIM AND BY HIM THAT 

    ALL THINGS ARE MADE, HE SIMPLY 

    OBEYS THE FATHER’S DIRECTIONS FROM WITHIN HIM AND ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE FOR GOD; BOTH FOR 

    JESUS AND HIS FATHER.

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, IN PARTICULAR, IS THE PHYSICAL ASPECT OF  GOD, HE IS THE ONLY

    SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD’S ELEMENT

    THE TINIEST, WHICH NO MICROSCOPE COULD BE INVENTED IN ORDER TO DETECT GOD’S TASK,

    AND THE CREATURES’ ELEMENTS. BY HIM AND THROUGH HIM GOD BUILDS, UNITES, AND FORMS ALL CREATION IN ITS MYRIAD BODIES. 

    IN WHICH GOD ABIDES,

    BUT ONLY THROUGH JESUS, HIS OWN WORD.

    AT ALL COSTS NO MATTER WHOM AND WHAT!

    Psalm 139 :12 But darkness shall not be dark to thee, and night shall be light as day: the darkness thereof, and the light thereof are alike to thee.

    AS SPIRITS CAN ONLY FUNCTION AND LIVE WITHIN A BODY, ITS CARRIER.

    EVEN IN SATAN SIMPLY AS 

    NOTHING EXISTS WITHOUT 

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN,

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD

    NEVERMIND 

    KING ABYSSINIA MIKE!!!

     

    You need to learn/remember what the word “OF” means, Carmel.  If I am the son OF the President, than it is impossible for me to BE the President that I am the son OF.

    ME:DEFINITELY, SINCE MIKE IS SIMPLY A MORTAL HUMAN BEING, IN THE SAME WAY KING ABYSSINIA WAS.

    You need to learn/remember what “the word” means MIKE!

    OTHERWISE, IT IS  ALL  A

    USELESS REASONING WHEN IT COMES TO TALK ABOUT GOD!

    YOU: And the fact that (according to scripture) Jesus is the Son,

    Matthew 11:27 All things are

    DELIVERED to me (from within Jesus, explained above)

    by my Father.

    now read hereunder:

    And no one knoweth the Son,

    but the Father:(within the son)

    neither doth any one know the Father,

    but the Son,(within the father)

    and he to whom it shall please

    the Son to reveal him.( the Father in THE SON)

    Prophet, Messiah, Lamb, Word, Priest, Holy One, Creation and Holy Servant OF God.

    IS THAT ALL MIKE, 

    YOU ARE WELL AND WELL FAR FROM THE TRUTH!

    YOU: makes it impossible for him to BE the very God he is all those things OF.

    EXPLAIN MIKE

    HOW JESUS ATE HIMSELF

    IN THE LAST SUPPER?

    Peace nd love in Jesus Christ

     

    #867452
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    In fact that is not what I meant. I just meant that before Abraham came into existence, the Son of God existed.

    Thanks for clarifying Berean.

    #867481
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @lulu

    Is this a ordinary man?

    Jesus claims to exist before Abraham;

    John 8:58, KJV: “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58, NASB: “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.

    Are men virgin born? The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary .. Jesus is not just a man.  He identified with men taking on flesh and being born a man but he was God, and filled with the Holy Spirit at birth.   He was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

    Good post Lulu. Except I do not agree with one thing you said. That is, Jesus being God himself. Yes there is a God, but Jesus is his son. The Father is the only true God. Jesus taught us this himself.

    John 17:3
    “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent,”

    #867484
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer and all,

    The Son OF God (his name is called The Word of God.) Was in the biginning, he was WITH (THE) GOD, and He WAS God.The same was in the beginning with (the )GOD.

    GOD bless

    #867535
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:No one here has produced a single scripture that shows Jesus ever saying he prexisted his birth on this earth. IF you have it produce it, where Jesus himself said he did preexist his birth.

    Gene,

    WHAT DOES THIS VERSE SAY IN PURE PLAIN CLEAR SIMPLE ENGLISH?

    John6:62 If then you shall see the Son of man

    ascend up where he was before?

    Peac and love n Jesus Chist 

    #867537
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Good scripture Carmel.

    John 6:62
    If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

    Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

    Some more verses that show this is a mainstream teaching in scripture. And these are all the words of Jesus Christ himself.

    John 6:38-40
    For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 17:5
    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    John 16:28
    I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

    These are absolutely clear. Gene and Jodi are trying to deceive Believers. They should repent for their own good. It would be bad if they have to face God regarding leading people astray from the truth in scripture.

    The time is short. Be wise. But I realise that not all listen to the shepherd.

    #867865
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    I agree that Jesus was begotten by God.

    But what God begets is God; just as what man begets is man.

    Do you agree?

    #867866
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    In nature yes. It is called divine nature and we can be part of that.

    In identity no. Only the Father is God himself. God is a HE, not THEM.

    For example, Adam was the first man right? But did you know that the word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’?

    So Eve is adam but not Adam. (God created adam male and female). This means she is part of mankind, but is not Adam, the first man. There is only one Adam. Werll technically two now because Jesus became the new / second / final Adam.

    Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

    Notice how we who are born from God have his nature, but we are obviously not God and never will be. Jesus said the following:

    “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent,”

    Jesus acknowledges here indirectly that he is not the one true God. We know that he is the son of that one true God though. He said this truth is eternal life.

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

    SO if we listen to Jesus, then we believe that he is the son of the one true God and not the one true God himself.

     

    #867871
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    CARMEL……Jesus Christ did asend up where he  was before, YES   he rose from the dead and came back to life where he was before  he died. JESUS decend in the Grave for three days and  nights like Jonah did, the rose to where he was before  . It’s  called the resurection of the dead . JESUS DID DO THAT,  they, THE APOSTLES,   saw him both die and be burred and came up alive again on this earth as he was  before.  In order to say they have seen him asend up from where he was before, meaning heaven, they would have had to seen him “desend first” ,  from where he was before

    The apostles didn’t know where he was before,  they didn’t even know were was going to, at least that what they said.  BUT THEY DID KNOW he  was  a alive human being  walking on this earth, and died and was placed in his grave, and he did asend out of that grave. They know that for sure. Did they see him asend into the heavens ?  Yes they did, but they did not  see him desend from there.

    Jesus whole mission was about forgiveness of sin and a resurection from the dead, not about a asending into heaven.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #867877
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi to all

    Here a video summarizing the truth about Jesus’s pre-existence

    God Bless

    #867879
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. …..your listing to a false “trinitarian ” teachers.   Following them will only will get you rejected by God , “hear O Israel, the LORD our God Is “One” LORD.  And did you notice he also never quotes this verse,  Jesus said   ” and this is eternal life that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD,  ….. I THINK I WILL BELIEVE WHAT Jesus said and not what a false trinitarian says.

    Let’s truly read some more of what Jesus said,   and see if you are doing what Jesus said he did?

    John 17: 4- “I have “glorified you”  on the earth,  I have finished the  work which  “you” have given me to do.  So Jesus job was to “Glorify”  God the Father,  but you people spend all you time Glorifying the man  Jesus who spent all of his time Glorifying The One who Sent him GOD. 

    John 17: 6….. more of what Jesus did, “I have “manifested”  “YOUR” NAME” , unto the men which you gave me out of the world: “YOURS”  they WERE, and “YOU” gave them me; and they have kept “YOUR” word. 

    So Berean why don’t you or you trinitarians teachers spend more time doing what Jesus did “GLORIFYING ”  the Father,  why is it we hardly never hear anything about the  Father from you people  “your” region is all about giving GLORY TO JESUS, but Jesus was all about  “GLORIFYING ” GOD THE FATHER?  Teaching us to put all are faith in our and his GOD, our Father And his Father.  JESUS put us with him in the “exact” same relationship with the Father, as the “ONLY” SAVIOR OF MANKIND and HIMSELF also.  

    Your Faith is in Jesus, as your God, and you worship him as such, but true believers Faith is in God , the  same “GOD” Jesus put “ALL” his “Faith” in. And told us to also. 

    So, BEREAN, are those who worship Jesus as their God, true believers, or are  those who do what Jesus said to do the true believers?  You know,  those who believe like him ,  in the Father as the “only” one true God”? 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    #867880
    Berean
    Participant

    IT SEES THAT YOU DIDN’T EVEN LISTEN TO THE VIDEO …. POOR GENE
    YOU ARE TAKING THE WAY MORE AND MORE OF SIN AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    #867881
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    The Bible says very clearly that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in
    him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16
    A begotten son inherits what is his father’s and that includes his nature, name and authority.
    So Jesus Christ is God because he is the Son of God.
    But He is not God the Father. Don’t attack strawman. Thanks.

    #867883
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

     

    YOU: JESUS decend in the Grave for three days and  nights like Jonah did,

    ME: JESUS DID NOT DESCEND Gene FOR GOD’S SAKE!

     

    EXPLAIN TO ME,

    HOW CAN A DEAD MAN DESCENDS!

    Jonah never died 

    You: In order to say they have seen him asend up from where he was before, meaning heaven, they would have had to seen him “desend first” ,  from where he was before

    YOU ARE REALLY IN PUZZELLED STATE Gene!

    READ AGAIN SCRIPTURE AND DON’T TWIST AND GO AROUND SCRIPTURE SIMPLY TO QUENCH YOUR THIRST:

    John 6:61But Jesus, knowing in himself,

    that his disciples murmured at this, said to them:

    Doth this scandalize you?

     62If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

    It is the spirit that quickeneth:

    the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 

    JESUS Gene, MADE IT CLEAR AND SIMPLY REGARDING HIMSELF.

    HE WAS NOT LIKE HUMANS ON EARTH, HE WAS ONLY

    BORN

    IN ALL THINGS LIKE HUMANS. IN A WAY.

    HE CAME FROM HEAVEN 

    AS A SPIRIT 

    THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN,

    WHATEVER COMES FROM HEAVEN GENE, IS SPIRIT.

    IN THE SAME WAY THAT WHATEVER COMES FROM EARTH 

    IS PHYSICAL.

    IT IS THE SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE TO ALL OF GOD’S WORK,

    ESPECIALLY TO HIMSELF IN JESUS, 

    THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER HEBREWS 1:3

    HUMANS ARE FILTHY MORTAL AND  DIRT OF EARTH!

    YOU:Did they see him asend into the heavens ?  Yes they did,

    but they did not  see him desend from there.

    THEY DID NOT SEE HIM EVEN BORN Gene, 

    BUT HE DID BORN!

    AS LONG AS JESUS SAID SO 

    HE DID COME FROM HEAVEN

    WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT

    IT IS PLAIN PURE TRUTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #867884
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @dannyd

    So Jesus Christ is God because he is the Son of God.
    But He is not God the Father. Don’t attack strawman. Thanks.

    Let’s take your logic and apply it to another area where nature vs identity. See how it doesn’t work?

    So Eve is Adam because she came from Adam.
    But she is not Adam the first. Don’t attack strawman. Thanks.

    What this example should say is this.

    So Eve is man (adam) because she came from Adam.
    But she is not Adam himself rather adam (man). Don’t attack strawman. Thanks.

    #867903
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..Jesus was both saw being physically  born, and was saw being SPIRITUAL BORN, ALSO , according to  John the Baptist.

    Is there any scriptures you actually believe Carmel?

    You whole concept about human kind explains a lot, and also shows your disregard for GOD  Father AND HIS,   Human creation also.  Your views sure differ from what we read in HEBREWS 2.  and what God himself said in Genesis about his physical creation.  The whole creation will be delievered from its bondage of corruption  scripture says. But then again you change all scriptures to meet your personal view all the time. While calling everyone else “CARNEL”. that’s a joke at best.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene.

    #867906
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    Exactly as I have said…you did attack strawman!
    Jesus is NOT God the Father!
    Now let’s think about your argument.
    Adam and Eve shared the same nature. Yes, of course.
    Now tell me was Adam a superior being? Was Eve a lesser kind of being?
    No, of course not! We are not stupid!
    So Jesus is not a god. He is God just like His Father.
    Thank you. You have proved that Jesus is God.
    I’m sorry, but you can’t fool me.
    One last question to all of you:
    Can you say with Thomas and all other true Christians to Jesus: My Lord and my God! (John 20:28)
    Yes or No?

    #867913
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I never attacked a straw man argument. I correctly pointed out that the head of God is Christ and the head of the woman is the man. I made a comparison that just as Eve and Adam have the same nature, they are different beings. Likewise with God and his son. The son came from God and Eve came from Adam.

    My argument was to point out that you are confused between nature and identity.

    God is not God because of his nature, but because he is the Father of all, even the son. Yes God has divine nature, but so it seems the son and us too.

    …by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature.

    If divine nature makes you God, then the redeemed are God. But we are not God.

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