John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,381 through 21,400 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #867262
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer, wrong again , no he is NOT, the word of God “himself” he is called that “because” he spoke God the Fathers words to us. Me and Mike agree on that.

    If he is the main speaker of God’s Word then that is every reason to believe that he is the Word of God.

    Similarly, he will save people from their sins, so he was called Jesus, thus he is Jesus.

    Real simple.

    Is your name Gene? Then you are Gene despite everyone having genes. Lol. You are your name.

    I am called Proclaimer in Heaven Net, thus you address me as Proclaimer. So I am Proclaimer despite proclamations being an attribute of others.

    Even if we ignore all the scripture that is counter to your teachings, even this most basic logic has defeated your argument.

    You lost buddy.

    #867263
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    According to Gene’s argument, if applied to himself, God did not create him because his parents were involved. Thus he is not part of creation. He must be special. And my pet dog was not created by God either because I met his mother. Come to think of it, God didn’t create any living being that didn’t come directly from God.

    #867264
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To add another point here. Who was the first living being to be with God. That person would have to be special. Like an only begotten of the Father, the firstborn of all creation. The life that was with the Father in the beginning. Hmmm. Tough question. Who could that be?

    #867265
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene, you lost this argument a very long time ago. As for us, we will continue to hold firmly to the truth, encourage by sound doctrine, & refute those who oppose it.

    #867267
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel……No Mike is right, Jesus is called thec word of God because he speaks to us thec words of God,  not “his” words,  or don’t  you believe what Jesus said ,  

    the word I am telling you are “NOT” my word , but the words of him who sent me.  

    Jesus plainly tell you THE WORDS HE WAS TELLING THEM WAS “NOT” FROM HIMSELF.

    How much clearer can it get?

    SCRIPTURE!

    John14:9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you;

    and have you not known me? Philip,

    he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    ME: THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE CLEARLY SAYS  Gene, THAT

    THERE’S NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN

    GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS

    THE FATHER’S OWN WORD

    AS MUCH AS THERE’S NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN

    YOU AND YOUR OWN WORDS!

    Likewise, there’s no difference between

    JESUS and THE FATHER’S WORDS.

    THE FACT THAT JESUS EMPHATICALLY MADE IT CLEAR AND SAID:

    How sayest thou,

    Shew us the Father?

    HOW CAN  A PERSON ASK WHO 

    ACTUALLY, Gene is after HE HEARS Gene SPEAKS?

    10 Do you not believe,

    that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

    GOT IT Gene?

    YOU Gene are IN whatever YOU SAY,

    AS MUCH AS WHATEVER YOU SAY IS IN YOU!!!

    THAT’S HOW PEOPLE REALIZE THAT YOU ARE A LIAR IN RELATION TO YOUR PREACHING/WORDS!

    Gene, whatever you say is IN YOU.

    IT ORIGINATES and COMES FROM YOUR OWN HEART

    It is your own image.

    THIS IS WHAT JESUS MADE CLEAR TO PHILIP AND SAID:

    The words that I  (AS THE ACTUAL WORD OF GOD) speak to you,

    I speak not of myself.  (NOT JESUS ORIGIN,)

    YOUR WORDS Gene did not originate by themselves

    but BY YOU!

    AGAIN, THIS IS ALSO MADE CLEAR BY JESUS WHEN HE SAID:

    But THE FATHER

    who abideth in me,

    he doth the works. 

    AS MUCH AS YOU

    Gene, ABIDES

    IN YOUR OWN WORDS, AND ALSO

    DO WHAT YOU SAY 

    EITHER GOOD/TRUTH OR BAD/LIE

    BY WHICH WORDS/WORKS YOU WILL BE 

    JUSTIFIED

    MATTHEW 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    How much clearer can it get?

    JESUS IS THE ACTUAL

    WORD OF GOD 

    SPOKEN and WRITTEN!

    ALL IS POSSIBLE FOR GOD Gene!!!!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #867268
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    CARMEL…..Again  you completely neglected the scriptures I quoted from scriptures to you. The same applies to Berean and Proclaimer,  you all  force our scripture to say what in fact they do not say, and even add your own words and thoughts  to our texts to make your false “assumptions” as the Pharisees  did at the time of Jesus.

    But none the less the truth will ultimately stand, then we shall see who is telling the truth ?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

    #867269
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer,  The “Spirit of truth”, given,  Jodi and I,  here give us the “cognisity” of what is true, and what is a lie. 

    Most here do not have it or they would reject all the false teaching about Jesus, derived from all the “apostate” churches, which they have  adopted over the last two thousand years.  

    If you believe Jesus “PREXISTED” his birth on this earth as a sentinel being of anykind ,  you are blind to the words of God the Father, and his work in the human race, through the SON OF “MAN”, JESUS CHRIST .  A 100% pure human being who did not exist before his birth on this earth. He only existed in the plan and “Will” Of God the Father, just as we did,  who brought him forth from the seed of King David at the proper time, and anointed him with his holy spirit and sent him out to preach the good new of the kingdom of God.

    No one here has produced a single scripture that shows Jesus ever saying he prexisted his birth on this earth. IF you have it produce it, where Jesus himself said he did preexist his birth.

    You people produce nothing but scripture you can force to say what in fact they do not specifically say, nor even hint at, and even counterdict what other scriptures say.

    It is true where it say “because they recieved not the love of the truth , GOD  will send unto them a deluding spirit, in order for them to “believe a lie”. 2THS2.  

    Once God has deluded some one,  they cannot reconize the truth. Even if it is right in front of then like the pharisees of Jesus day. just a bunch of blind men , who have fallen into a ditch,  groping at the walls.

    Sad., peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

     

    #867270
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. ….I see you really don’t want a real bible study, on the scriptures I posted,  but I believe you can see my points m but rather not deal with them in a honest way,  So be it .

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #867271
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.(John17:5)

    You see well That Jesus was WITH His Father in Heaven BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    #867272
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU CARMEL…..Again  you completely neglected the scriptures I quoted from scriptures to you. The same applies to Berean and Proclaimer,  you all  force our scripture to say what in fact they do not say, and even add your own words and thoughts  to our texts to make your false “assumptions” as the Pharisees  did at the time of Jesus.

    But none the less the truth will ultimately stand, then we shall see who is telling the truth ?

    ME: I ALREADY MADE IT CLEAR IN MANY OCCASIONS Gene,

    UNLESS YOU IGNORE YOUR PREFERRED

    BLA, BLA, AND BLA,

    BE SPECIFIC, CONTRADICT ME BY USING SCRIPTURES. 

    MINE STNDS AS TRUTH

    and yours

    REMAIN

    LIES, LIES, and LIES.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #867275
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……here you go……“that they might know you the “ONLY” true God,” …….

    And again,  but unto us there is ” ONE” GOD, and one “MEDIATOR ” between God and men,  the  “MAN” Jesus Christ.  

    There is JUST some of scripture for you to chew on and destroy to meet your false teachings Carmel.

    You have never got past those scriptures yet.  Not to even mention all the prophets, that Jesus himself used to show his true deciples who he was, Which you obvisely have rejected.

    Because you have not loved the truth “God has sent unto you a deluding spirit, in order for you to believe a lie”,  2ths2.   That “LIE” is,  you have made Jesus your God, and a prexistent one also. 

    You and people who believe as you do , do not see Jesus as a “second ADAM”  at all,  but a preexisting being “MORPHED” into a human body,  even though scripture tell you that he “Learned” obediance by the thing he suffered.  

    Tell us how does a perfect preexisting being “learn” obediance? You rob God the Father,  and pay the “man” Jesus.  For the work of the Father himself. 

    Trust me Carmel , you haven’t a clue of what the truth really is. All your posts say nothing, you present them as you master Satan wants you to  “completely wrong”,  As all false teachers do.

    I would tell you to repent, but you can’t because of the deluding Spirit sent unto you. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    #867276
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..please show us where what you quoted say I existed before I was born on this earth? 

    Again you force the text to say what it does not specifically say?

    I could say the same thing about me, “for who he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed unto his Son.” , so tell me,  was I preexisting also? after all it says, who he foreknew, and Hebrews says he Has both “Honored” me (mankind) and crowned me with “Glory”,  and put all things  under my feet.

    Thats what scripture say,  but I see no one saying we preexisted our birth here on earth,  but we do also have that Glory before the foundation of the earth too.

    Show me where SCRIPTURE proves me wrong BEREAN.

    Peaceand love to you and yours. …………gene

    #867277
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You’re saying nonsense
    you are dishonest and you tire me out.

    #867278
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene, wakeup.

    Did God create the universe through you. Will you be in the glory you had with the Father before the universe when you die. Are you the Word become flesh.

    I think we can all see that the Ordinary Jesus Brigade is false.

    The readers here can make up their own minds as the evidence from both sides has been argued.

    #867280
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel……here you go……

    “that they might know you the “ONLY” true God,” …….

    HERE WE GO:

    Gene, YOU ARE FOCUSING ONLY ON THE PHRASE:

    the “ONLY” true God,” …….

    In the same time you are IGNORING COMPLETELY THE MOST IMPORTANT PART WHICH IS

    THE BEGINNING OF THE SENTENCE. READ:

    John17:3 Now this is eternal life:

    JESUS IN THE ABOVE PHRASE REFERRED TO HIMSELF AND

    HIS PROCESS OF ETERNAL LIFE, ATTENTION Gene; 

    WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER! PRE-EXISTED!!! READ THE TRUTH:

    1John1:2  For the life(ETERNAL) was manifested;

    WHO IS THIS LIFE Gene???

    JESUS; “THE WORD” WHICH WAS IN/WITH THE FATHER.

    PRE-EXISTED. 

    IN THE SAME WAY, YOUR WORD IS IN/WITH YOU! KEEP ON READING:

    and we have seen (THIS LIFE, JESUS) and do bear witness, and declare unto you

    the life eternal, (JESUS, for the simple reason that in order for the eternal life to

    FUNCTION, TO BE MANIFESTED ON EARTH

    MORTAL;

    Jesus MUST DIE!

    AS THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO ACHIEVE THIS UNIQUE TASK UNLESS HE HIMSELF IN HIS OWN SUBSTANCE Hebrews 1:3  AS A HUMAN IN JESUS, HIS SON! ATTENTION AGAIN;

    which was with the Father, (PRE-EXISTED)

    and hath

    APPEARED to us: (PRE-EXISTED)

    SINCE IT APPEARED IT IS OBVIOUS

    THAT EXISTED BEFORE IT APPEARED!NO?

    Now let’s continue John 17:3…..

    That they may know thee,

    OK Gene???

    ALL JESUS’OWN TASKS AND PROCESSES EVEN

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD. 

    WAS IN ORDER FOR ALL CREATURES, EVEN THE HEAVENLY REALMS TO KNOW

    WHO IS THE ONLY TRUE, ATTENTION AGAIN, Gene

    INVISIBLE GOD!

    Satan, up to Jesus redemption THROUGH HIS DEATH, purposely to eradicate DEATH, SATAN’S EMPIRE, and TRANSFORM DEATH INTO LIFE, GOD’S EMPIRE,

    considered himself

    EQUAL WITH GOD, unless it is manifested

    PHYSICALLY on earth otherwise BY

    GOD AS A HUMAN.

    Simply as humanity BY EVE’S SIN, the mother of all the cursed in flesh, was SATAN’S PROPERTY REGARDING FLESH, with the exception of THE JEWS.

    THAT WAS GOD’S OWN PLAN!

    BOTH GOD AND SATAN ARE  SPIRITS, UNKNOWN and POWERFUL. Satan took advantage of the situation NOT ONLY through his lies, but he believed that he owns his own POWER, AUTONOMOUS.

    THE OLD TESTAMENT IS CRAMMED WITH INSTANCES WHERE GOD MANIFESTED HIS TRUTH AND POWER BY THE PROPHETS; The most prominent is Elia’s sacrifice.

    BUT FOR NO USE! WHY???

    SIMPLY BECAUSE IT WAS AGREED BEFORE THE WORLD WAS THAT GOD’S ONLY WAY TO BE ACCEPTED AS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD ON EARTH, and EVENTUALLY ALSO IN HEAVEN,

    WAS THAT HE HIMSELF DEMONSTRATES HIS SUPERIORITY AS

    MAN IN FLESH AND BLOOD, BUT NOT, ATTENTION Gene,

    A HUMAN BEING IN FLESH AND BLOOD OF EARTH, 

    SINCE EARTH WAS SATAN’S OWN PROPERTY TILL IT IS MANIFESTED OTHERWISE PRECISELY BY THIS

    HUMAN BEING AND DIVINE.

    “THE WORD” JESUS,

    THE SON OF MAN!

    Something that Satan was more than convinced that IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR GOD!

    AND NOW WE COME FOR JESUS OWN CLAIM:

    That they may know thee,

    the only true God,

    and Jesus Christ,

    whom thou hast sent.

    NO JESUS NO TRUE GOD

    NO TRUE GOD NO JESUS

    NOW LET’S SETTLE THIS TRUTH Gene and read:

    1John5:19 We know that we are of God,

    and the whole world is seated in wickedness. (SATANIC)

     20And we know that the Son of God (JESUS CHRIST EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS)

     is come:(PRE-EXISTED)

    and he(JESUS CHRIST) hath given us understanding

    that we may know

    the true God,(definitely and only since

    IT IS PHYSICALLY MANIFESTED ON EARTH)

    and may be in his

    TRUE Son.(MANIFESTED ON EARTH)

    THIS IS THE TRUE GOD and

    ETERNAL LIFE.

    JESUS CHRIST!!!  Also well clear in

    Ephesians 4:1I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, (JESUS CHRIST)beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit (CHRIST’S)in the bond of peace.

    4One body and one Spirit; (CHRIST’S)

    as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5One Lord, (CHRIST)one faith, one baptism.

    6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

    JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE ON EARTH!

    Isaiah 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and

    a son is given to us,

    and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor,

    God the Mighty,(unique in flesh)

    the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #867285
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..The answer to your question is “no” and “yes”

    “NO” God created the universe “alone and by himself”.

    God created from the foundations of this earth, everything, for the perpose of all humanity, including me and Jesus my lord.  We are the “purpose”  of all his physical creation.

    Did I have “Glory” and  “Honor” , and was all things put under my feet , before I was ever born on this earth “YES” , “EXACTLY” as it was for Jesus my lord. 

    Do I have a “HEAVENLY” Father “exactly ” the same as the “man” Jesus “YES”.  

    Is God the Father  my God  and Jesus’ GOD,  “YES”  the “exact” same 

    Jesus never glorified “himself”, but said this, ” I have glorified “YOU” on the earth,” , and again,    if I gorify myself, my glory is “nothing” .  BUT YOU PEOPLE glorify him as your God, something Jesus never did.  You people spend nearly all your time preaching about Jesus, but Jesus spent all his time showing us how to Worship and Glorify “GOD” THE FATHER,   you people preach and believe Jesus is your Saviour,and how to Worship him,   I preach and believe GOD THE FATHER IS MY SAVIOUR and the Saviour of all mankind  and THE “MAN”, Jesus also, who is  my lord. (Adoni) (a human ruler), Not my LORD (Adonia) ALMIGHTY GOD.  

    You people make “everything” about the man Jesus, but Jesus made “everything” about God the Father.  The one you people idolize and worship as your savior is Jesus,  who me and Jesus worship and Glorify as our Saviour is, GOD the Father.   Your teaching moves Jesus away from his “ordinary” human roots to,  a God ,  I and Jesus my lord  don’t do that,  lest we be Idolaters as you are.  I walk “beside”  Jesus my lord, in fellowship, worshiping “our” “ONLY” TRUE GOD, and in seeking to obey him,  in Spirit and truth. 

    You people say Jesus is your lord, but you don’t obey him,  nor what he said either, or you would never preach nor elevate him as your God, even above God the father in the churches , in so doing you have turned the “image”  the “man”  Jesus into   a “man of sin”,  and you fall down and worship him as your God . Exactly as Paul prophesied you  would do. in “2ths2 “. 

    If you don’t see Jesus as an real ordinary,   human flesh being, who God the Father  took from the root of the man Jesse, and a offspring of the man David, and made him a “SECOND”  Adam,  a flesh and blood human being and nothing  more nor nothing less, and then exactly as he made the First Adam and ,  “HIGHELY EXHULTED HIM” as a human being,  a human  lord, comming  from humanity,  a real SON OF MANKIND ,  whose only true Father was God, exactly as our only true Father is also. If you can’t understand that, then you simply are blind to the truth. 

    All this stuff about a “preexisting” being , another God, or Angel, or whatever in the case of Proclainer is nothing but , “pure hog wash” a “LIE” ,  created by false teacher who believe “the LIE” Satan has placed in the church, over two thousand years ago, through the GNOSTIC’S.  

    You people dont relize Jesus said the “deception that would come would be about him, saying  ” for many will come in my name saying I am the Christ and “DECIEVE” MANY”.  You must come  to see what that deception is, it’s about “WHO” Jesus is.  He was and is not a preexisting being of anykind, he did not preexist his birth on this earth,  or he could not be a second Adam.

    Peace and love to you all and your………..gene

     

     

     

     

     

    #867286
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Unitarianism which denies the divinity and humanity of Christ is doomed to total annihilation.

    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    [9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead(deity) (Colossians 2:8,9)

    #867287
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..If something “DWELLS “IN” YOU”   does that make you “IT” ? , NO , that’s like saying,  I dwell in this house so therefore , the house is me. How foolish to think that!

    “know you not that your “bodies” are the temple of the “Living God”?, so,  in your way of thinking I must be God, how foolish , I am no God and neither is or was Jesus, I am a product of mankind, who God created,   a Son of Man,    so was and is Jesus, according to the flesh, according  to him at least, because he said he was a son of man around eighty times,  I am a Son of God,  because the Spirit of God Dwells “in”  me also, so is Jesus,  but then again you people do not believe  Jesus nor what he said either.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

     

     

     

    #867290
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    In you or in me does not live
    the fullness of divinity.
    In Jesus YES. It is another thing to be filled with the Holy Spirit; in his very essence Jesus is God; the reason is that HE IS THE OWN SON OF GOD.
    ON THE OTHER HAND, HE IS NOT “A” SON OF MAN BUT “THE” SON OF MAN.

    When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? (Mathew 16:13)

     

     

    #867291
    Berean
    Participant

     

    THE SON OF MAN

    88 matches.

    Matt.8
    [20] And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
    Matt.9
    [6] But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
    Matt.10
    [23] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
    Matt.11
    [19] The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
    Matt.12
    [8] For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
    [32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
    [40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    Matt.13
    [37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    [41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    Matt.16
    [13] When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    [27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    [28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
    Matt.17
    [9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
    [12] But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
    [22] And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
    Matt.18
    [11] For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
    Matt.19
    [28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    Matt.20
    [18] Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
    [28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
    Matt.24
    [27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    [37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    [44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    Matt.25
    [13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
    [31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    Matt.26
    [2] Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
    [24] The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
    [45] Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
    [64] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
    Mark.2
    [10] But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
    [28] Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
    Mark.8
    [31] And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
    [38] Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
    Mark.9
    [9] And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
    [12] And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
    [31] For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
    Mark.10
    [33] Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
    [45] For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
    Mark.13
    [26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    [34] For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
    Mark.14
    [21] The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
    [41] And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
    [62] And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
    Luke.5
    [24] But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
    Luke.6
    [5] And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
    [22] Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.
    Luke.7
    [34] The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
    Luke.9
    [22] Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
    [26] For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.
    [44] Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
    [56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
    [58] And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
    Luke.11
    [30] For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
    Luke.12
    [8] Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
    [10] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
    [40] Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
    Luke.17
    [22] And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
    [24] For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
    [26] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    [30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    Luke.18
    [8] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
    [31] Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
    Luke.19
    [10] For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
    Luke.21
    [27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    [36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
    Luke.22
    [22] And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
    [48] But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
    [69] Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
    Luke.24
    [7] Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
    John.1
    [51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
    John.3
    [13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    [14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    John.5
    [27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    John.6
    [27] Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
    [53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
    [62] What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    John.8
    [28] Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
    John.12
    [23] And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
    [34] The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
    John.13
    [31] Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
    Acts.7
    [56] And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
    Heb.2
    [6] But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    Rev.1
    [13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
    Rev.14
    [14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

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