John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,341 through 21,360 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #867197
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Berean…..Jesus is the “only”, “begotten son”,  (from mankind), of God,

    Gene, YOU ARE CONTRADICTING EVEN YOURSELF IN YOUR MADNESS REGARDING JESUS’HUMAN NATURE!

    HOW ON EARTH JESUS IS

    THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD AND ALSO

    FROM MANKIND!

    WHEN SCRIPTURES MADE IT CLEAR THAT

    JESUS WAS ONLY 

    IN ALL THINGS LIKE HUMANS,

    NOTHING IDENTICAL TO HUMANS!!!

    YOU SIMPLY DECLARED THAT GOD IS

    USELESS, AND INFERTILE.

    READ GOD’S OWN WORDS:

    Isaiah 66:1THUS saith the Lord: Heaven is my throne, and

    the earth my footstool: 

    ACCORDING TO YOU GOD MADE HIS SON

    OUT FROM WHAT HE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL. 

    PURE MADNESS!

    Isaiah 66:9 Shall not I that make others to bring forth children,

    MYSELF  bring forth, saith the Lord?

    WHAT DOES THE WORD

    MYSELF

    TELLS YOU Gene?

    shall I, that give generation to others,

    BE BARREN, saith the Lord thy God?

    WHAT DOES THE WORD

    BARREN

    TELLS YOU Gene?

    JESUS HAD NOTHING  ABSOLUTE NOTHING FROM MANKIND

    IN RELATION

    TO HIS CONCEPTION

    read

    Luke 1:3 And Mary said to the angel:

    How shall this be done,

    because I know not man?

    THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT MARY, DESPITE ALREADY ESPOUSED TO JOSEPH, DECLARED

    THAT SHE  WAS NOT IN THE POSITION 

    TO KNOW MAN. AT ANY TIME!

    35…..The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and

    the power of the most High (GOD ALMIGHTY) shall overshadow thee.

    From the above Gene, IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT

    NO  TASKS OF ANY KIND ASSOCIATED TO MANKIND WAS INVOLVED!

    IT WAS THROUGHOUT A DIVINE TASK,

    AND IT LACKED NOTHING IN ORDER

    FOR JESUS TO BE BORN IN ALL THINGS 

    LIKE (NOT IDENTICAL Gene)

    HIS BRETHREN. 

    And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called  

    THE Son of God.(NOT A SON OF GOD as you preach)

    Now to

    Matthew 1:18 Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together,

    she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost.

    Gene, ANOTHER ATTESTATION THAT JESUS WAS NOT FROM MANKIND WHAT MORE DO YOUand Jodi WANT TO

    ACCEPT THE ABOVE TRUTH?

    THAT JESUS WAS 

    OF THE HOLY GHOST?

     

    19Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately. 20But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying:

    Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife,

    for that which is conceived in her,

    is of the Holy Ghost.

    NOT FROM MANKIND,

    NO SPERMA, NO DNA, NO OVUM,

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S OWN PERSONAL WORK! IT IS

    THROUGHOUT SPIRIT!

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH.

    IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE!

    Isaiah 66:7

    7Before she was in labour,

    she brought forth;

    before her time came to be delivered,

    she brought forth a MAN CHILD

     

    YOU: So far,  he is the “firstborn” of “MANY “, BRETHERN”.

    ME: Gene IN WHAT WAY, AND WHEN 

    JESUS BECAME THE FIRSTBORN OF 

    MANY BRETHREN?

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #867199
    Ed J
    Participant

    Edj,

    I love that you search for the impossible.

    Hi Princess,

    I don’t know what you mean, but it sounds like a complement.

    ( :

    #867200
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Waiting for Gene to exercise his free will and reply.

    #867207
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……when he was resurected from the Grave, he was the First one from humanity to be born into the kingdom of God and the first human being given eternal life. Evidently you don’t really believe Jesus was actually Dead, even though he said he was.

    What do you do with Jesus saying he was a Son of Man around eighty times?  Obvisely you really don’t believe what he said he was right?

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #867208
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…… fix this site where it dosen’t log me out every day OK . I spent a hour writing a post to Berean and it would not posted because I was loged out.  Leave me loged in if you can.

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

    #867209
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……I will try to repost to you again on the word Before, and a word study on what Jesus was addressing when he said that.  In the mean time if you can go and reread that whole chapter, starting where they ask him if he was “greater” then Abraham and the prophets.  The whole context is important in explaining several things including evidence of Jesus,  not “preexisting” his birth on this earth.  The words are there,  you just probably never thought about it.

    I will try to do it tomorrow if I can?

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    #867210
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You know I don’t believe in your biblical interpretations. So no need to try to show me that “prin” means something else in John 8:58 and elsewhere than what the king James bible expresses

    #867211
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Mike,

    ALL of scripture must agree, I do not see that at all with your doctrine, nor with the doctrine of others. If you don’t apply clear given truths to certain passages you are going to understand them incorrectly, which is exactly what you and others do with verse 58 of John 8.

    Hi Jodi, I’m willing to invest some serious time and effort to get to the bottom of our disagreement.  I see your claim above – that my doctrine somehow doesn’t align with ALL of scripture.  I see it, I understand it, I completely reject it, and I can prove to you that it is an erroneous claim.  I would like to do this in a private debate format, since I only make a few posts here every weekend or two.  When I come back, there are multiple pages of discussions that I have to sift through to find out if YOU’VE addressed any of my arguments.  Are you willing to do this in a private debate thread?  Let me know.  In the meantime…

    Okay, I’ve made this point before, but never saw where you addressed it.

    Matthew 3:9

    And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

    1:  Do you believe that God could raise up children for Abraham out of stone that already exists on the earth, as John claims?  Yes or No?

    2:  If God did raise up a child for Abraham out of stone that already exists on earth, would that child of Abraham be a human being who preexisted his humanity as stone?  Yes or No?

    3:  If God had foretold about the future coming of this child of Abraham that He would one day raise out of stone, would it be true that this future child of Abraham preexisted as stone BEFORE God caused him to be a human child of Abraham?  Yes or No?

    Now I’m assuming that your answer to all three of those is Yes – because I can’t imagine any other way you could possibly answer them.  And if so, then you should be able to understand that it is possible for there to have existed a human being who previously existed as something other than a human being.  And the fact that this human being’s existence was foretold wouldn’t change the fact that he preexisted his humanity as something other than a human.

    So IF the answer to those 3 questions is indeed YES, then surely you can understand that there isn’t a single scripture in the Bible that PROHIBITS a human being PREEXISTING as something other than a human being.  After all, Adam technically preexisted his humanity as dust of the earth (ie: stone).  And Eve preexisted as one of Adam’s ribs.  So all of those wonderful scriptures you keep posting about how God would someday raise someone out of Jesse/David/a virgin that will be a ruler for Him don’t actually say a single thing – one way or the other – about whether or not this future “somebody” PREEXISTED his humanity as something other than human.

    So what are we left with then?  Well, we have you posting scriptures that don’t argue the point either way.  And we have me posting scriptures that not only align perfectly with every scripture you post – but also clearly and unequivocally teach that Jesus preexisted his humanity as something other than human.  And that makes your statement to me – “ALL of scripture must agree” – actually argue for me, and against you.  Because YOU are the one who only wants to accept SOME of the scriptural teachings and disregard or illogically explain away others.  I’M the one who’s doctrine incorporates “ALL of scripture”.

    Let me know about a private discussion thread so I can easily find your responses and address them in the future.

    #867212
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    How confused are they? Jesus didn’t say he saw Abraham, he said Abraham saw him.

    Actually, Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’ day, ie: his earthly coming where he’d save Abraham’s descendants by offering himself as a sacrificial lamb to atone for their sins.  But…

    1:  It’s true that the Jews took that statement to mean that Jesus had seen/conversed with Abraham – which was impossible in their minds because Jesus wasn’t even 50 years old.

    2:  Jesus did not AGREE with them, but instead CORRECTED them by pointing out that before Abraham even existed, he had already been in existence.

    The pronoun/verb statement “I am” (the most common statement in any language) is not anything mystical, or a revelation of hidden truth.  The statement means exactly what it means every other time Jesus (or anyone else in scripture) uttered the words “I am” (I am sick, I am hungry, I am tired, I am a disciple of Jesus, etc.)  But as I explained very clearly in a previous post, there are certain problems when translating one language (with it’s own set of rules) into another (that has it’s own set of rules).  In the Greek language, statements that are clearly past tense in English will sometimes be written in the Greek present tense.  Maybe this will help…

    ego eimi

    This is a screenshot of NET Bible’s online page of John 14:9. ( http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Joh&chapter=14&verse=9 )

    Notice that every single translation above renders Jesus’ statement to Philip as a PAST TENSE statement.  But in fact, it is the EXACT SAME statement (ego eimi: “I EXIST”), in the exact same Greek PRESENT TENSE  that Jesus makes in John 8:58.  So IF the Greek present tense and the English present tense corresponded perfectly, every one of those past tense “Have I been with you so long” translations above would be rendered as I am with you so long”.

    But we don’t talk like that in English.  In English, your mom says, “I have been here for 2 weeks already, and it’s time for me to leave now”, not, “I am here for 2 weeks already, and it’s time for me to leave now”.

    Now, please read the info in the yellow box that I’ve outlined in a red square.  Learn about “historical presents”, and how most English translators render them as English past tenses – while some let them remain present tense even though it makes less sense to us in English.  For example, here’s John 14:9 in Young’s Literal Translation:

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Jesus saith to him, ‘So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father?

    But Young’s is one of the very few that don’t “fix” it for a better English understanding.  Because clearly it flows better in English as “So long [of a] time I have been with you”, right?  And that’s why the vast majority of English translations (including the KJV) “fix” it for us… because the translators know it is a Greek “historical present” and that it should be translated into English as a past tense statement.

    Jodi, the clear and undeniable meaning of John 8:58 is this…

    1:  The Jews claimed that Jesus couldn’t have seen (or been seen by) Abraham since Jesus wasn’t even 50 years old.

    2:  Jesus corrected them by telling them that even before Abraham had existed, Jesus had already been in existence.

    The correct English translation of 8:58 is…

    Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham existed, I existed.”

    … just like the correct English translation of 14:9 is…

    “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?”

    Both are Greek historical presents, and both should be translated as English past tenses.  The only reason the vast majority of English translation have the past tense “I have been” in 14:9 but keep the present tense “I am” in 8:58 is because they erroneously believe the name of God is “I AM”, and try to make 8:58 into some illogical claim by Jesus to BE the God named “I AM”.  Of course that’s just silly – like all of the scriptural gymnastics the Trinitarians go through in an effort to make Jesus BE the very God he is the Son, Servant, Prophet, Angel, Messiah, Word (Spokesman), and Lamb OF.

    Anyway, this is an example of the fun stuff we can learn together if you agree to the private discussion.

     

    #867213
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Mike, the son of Jesse did not create the heavens and the earth, YHVH did…

    I’ve never claimed that anyone other than Jehovah created the heavens and the earth.  Scripture doesn’t ever teach that Jesus created these things.  What scripture teaches is that God alone created them, and that He did that THROUGH His firstborn son.

    Likewise, God alone created you, but He did that THROUGH your parents.

    We’re not told in scripture exactly what it means that God created all things through Jesus… only that He did.

    #867214
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: As said, ALL OF SCRIPTURE must agree. 

    So let’s talk about, 1 Cor 15: 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

    Don’t forget this one…

    John 3:5-8

    Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

    I realize you are trying to make a distinction between “flesh and blood” and “flesh and bone” – but they are just two popular ways to say the same exact thing.  Jesus’ teaching above makes it clear that FLESH cannot even ENTER the Kingdom of God.  Those humans who do enter God’s Kingdom are those who have been born again of something OTHER THAN flesh.  So whether you choose to refer to humans as “flesh and bone” or “flesh and blood”, the fact that they are FLESH prohibits them from inheriting or entering the Kingdom of God.  They must be born again to do so.

    So while it’s true that Jesus was raised from the dead in the very same flesh body in which he died, it is equally true that he had to have had his flesh body “transformed into his new glorious body” (Philippians 3:21) upon his ascension to heaven (Acts 1:9-11),  because he could not enter God’s Kingdom as a flesh being.

    #867215
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Maybe you not following what theses people are saying, they are not saying Jesus speaks God words to us , what they are saying is that The man Jesus “IS” “himself” God’s word. As I have said that’s like saying Peter is a “actual” rock, like you would find at a rock query some where. 

    I can’t comment on what somebody else may have said.  I can only tell you that I have never said Jesus is literally any word that God spoke.  Nor is Peter (who’s name means “rock”) a literal rock.  So listen to what I’m saying, because I can only speak for myself…

    One of Jesus’ many names is “the Word of God”.  He is not called that because he is a literal word(s) God spoke.  He is called that because he is God’s preeminent spokesman.  Just like the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia was named “the Word of the King” (Kal Hatze).  That human being wasn’t literally a word that the King of Abyssinia uttered, Gene.  He was named “the Word of the King” because he spoke on behalf of the King.  Jesus is named “the Word of God” because he speaks on behalf of God.

    So no, Peter isn’t a literal rock.  Jesus isn’t a literal word that God spoke.  And Kal Hatze isn’t a literal word the King of Abyssinia spoke.

    #867216
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Good work Mike.

    #867219
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike , yes but that is not what they believe and teach ,, they believe Jesus is “himself” God’s word, they teach that when John said in the beginning was the word and the words was with God and the word was God.   They transpose the word “word” written there as  to be Jesus himself.  They are not taking it as Jesus spoke God the Fathers words to us, but he “is” God the Fathers words. 

    They use that as a proof od Jesus’ preexistence. Something that passage is not even hinting at. That’s the problem Mike.

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    #867220
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike , I am going to post about where Jesus said “before Abraham I am”,  from the point in that chapter when it not only shows Jesus was not saying he existed befor Abraham, but where it also shows he wasn’t even there then.  Jesus clearly implies it, by his own words.  I am going to direct it to Berean  but the rest can also commit on it.

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

    #867222
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    ME: Let’s refresh our memory Gene and go back to my/your WORDS:

    YOU: So far,  he is the “firstborn” of “MANY “, BRETHERN”.

    ME: Gene IN WHAT WAY, AND WHEN 

    JESUS BECAME THE FIRSTBORN OF 

    MANY BRETHREN?

    Now let’s refer to scripture Gene,

    Romans 8:29 For whom he (GOD THE FATHER) foreknew, he also

    predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son;

    that he (JESUS) might be

    the firstborn amongst MANY brethren.

    JESUS,Gene, was THE FIRSTBORN

    BOTH IN RELATION TO OUR SOULS and ALSO

    IN RELATION TO OUR FLESH!

    NEVERTHELESS, HE REDEEMED US IN OUR FLESH, FIRST

    ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS

     

    Now let’s read your REPLY! FULL OF

    MISUNDERSTANDINGS /LIES

     

    YOU: Carmel……when he was resurrected from the Grave,

    he was the First one from humanity

    ME: A PURE LIE HUMANITY CANNOT IN ANYAY REDEEM THEMSELVES!

    YOU:  to be

    born into the kingdom of God

    and the first human being given eternal life.

    ANOTHER PURE LIE!

    JESUS IS ETERNAL LIFE ITSELF

    John11:25 Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: 

    BACK TO YOUR MISUNDERSTANDINGS/LIES

    LET’S FOCUS ON YOUR PARTICULAR WORDS:

    BORN AGAIN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

    NOW: JESUS WHEN HE RESURRECTED

    WAS NOT YET

    ASCENDED INTO PERFECTION IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

    SINCE ONLY GOD IS PERFECT! NO?

    THUS, HE WAS BORN FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME SIMPLY WHAT YOU IN ACTUAL FACT BELIEVE BUT UNAWARE OF

    INDENTICALLY HUMAN IN EVERY SENSE 

    THE SON OF MAN  

    NOW to scripture again WHERE WE FIND THE PRECISE WORDS :

    BORN AGAIN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

    John3:3 Jesus answered, and said to him:

    Amen, amen I say to thee,

    unless a man be born again,

    he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Reading the above scripture Jesus confirmed that

    HE, A PARTICULAR UNIQUE MAN,

    WAS BORN AGAIN ON HIS RESURRECTION (as you well mentioned)

    BUT JESUS, APART 

    HE REFERRED TO HIMSELF, HE ALSO IN THE SAME INSTANT REFERRED TO

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, SIMPLY AS ON HIS RESURRECTION

    HE WAS NOT ONLY BORN AGAIN HIMSELF

    ALONE, BUT

    AS THE PRIMACY, THE BEGINNING OF ALL BEGINNINGS, AS HE WAS IN ADAM

    THE FIRST LIVING SOUL,

    HE WAS EMBODIED IN HIMSELF WITH THE ENTIRE OF HIS OWN

    KINGDOM OF THE FLESH!

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON IN THE FLESH.

    OF EARTH, the generations of earth, NOT OF HEAVEN.

    AS MUCH AS THE FIRST ADAM WAS ALSO EMBODIED WITH THE ENTIRE OF HIS OWN KINGDOM OF ALL SOULS. LOST THROUGH SIN, AND TRANSFORMED INTO MORTAL CURSED SATANIC FLESH AND BLOOD. THE FACT THAT HUMANS COULD IN NO WAY DO NOTHING BY /IN THEIR OWN CURSED FLESH OF THIS WORLD, AND NEEDED

    A UNIQUE PURE FLESH FROM HEAVEN,

    THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN.

    BY WHICH FLESH

    JESUS PERFECTED

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE PRECISELY WHEN HE GAVE HIS OWN DIVINE FLESH AS A RANSOM, ATTENTION Gene:

    IN EXCHANGE

    FOR THE FLESH OF THE HUMAN RACE, ex satanic.

     John5:36 But I have a greater testimony than that of John: for the works which the Father hath

    HATH GIVEN ME TO PERFECT.

    BY WHICH FLESH

    JESUS WAS BORN AGAIN

    FOR THE SAKE OF HUMANITY

    ALL EMBODIED IN HIM. Well asserted in

    1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy

     HATH REGENERATED (RECREATED) US unto a lively hope,

     BY THE RESURRECTION OF

     JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD!

    GOT IT Gene?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #867224
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

    The false teachers in this topic do not believe that the world was made through him. These opening verses in John utterly destroys their teaching.

    The Word that was with God

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    John’s witness: The true light

    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    The Word that was with God becomes flesh

    14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

    16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

    #867226
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen

    The Father speaking to the Son

    And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
    [11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    [12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

    #867230
    Ed J
    Participant

    Mike said:
    Scripture doesn’t ever teach that Jesus created these things. What scripture teaches is that God alone created them, and that He did that THROUGH His firstborn son.

    Hi Mike,

    Your wording suggests Jesus helped in creation,
    which goes against the verse you just cited.

    Could it not instead simply be by Jesus crucifixion, that
    that is how God created the heavens and Earth “through” Jesus?
    Then that would not violate God creating the heaven and earth “ALONE”

    BUT if Jesus helped in ANY manor as you appear to be suggesting – that WOULD violate the verse.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #867231
    Ed J
    Participant

    Gene said:
    Carmel……when he was resurected from the Grave, he was the First one from humanity to be born into the kingdom of God and the first human being given eternal life.

    Gene, you are so far off.

    “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils,
    no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” (Luke 11:20)

    Q.
    How does this verse square with what you just said.

    A.
    It does not

    Care to comment?

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