John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,361 through 21,380 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #867232
    Ed J
    Participant

    Likewise, God alone created you, but He did that THROUGH your parents.

    If he did it “through” our parents, then he DIDN’T do it alone.

    Your logic fails!

    #867233
    Ed J
    Participant

    Berean said:
    The Father speaking to the Son

    Why are you adding to God’s Word what it does not say?

    #867242
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……Again you twist scriptures to meet your false assumptions,  it dosen’t say ‘”he” ,  it says the same  (God) was in the beginning”,  you continue to force our text to say what in fact it is not saying. 

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #867243
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean and all……..let’s have a little bible study ,  please pay close attintion to the subject matter, and the “exact” wording, you may be supprised to what it really shows. 

    John 8:53….. Are you “greater then”,  our father Abraham, who is dead, and the prophets; and you say , if a man keep my sayings , he shall never taste of death. 

    Now that sets the descussion , it was about who is the “greatest”  Jesus or Abraham and the prophets.  Can we all agree with that so far?

    John 8: 54…..Jesus answered, “if I honour myself,  my honour is nothing : it is my Father that honours me; of whom you say, that he is your God: 

    John 8:55…..”yet you have not known him ; but I “know” him :(a present tense statement) and if I should say I “know” him not , (another present tense statement) I should be a liar like you: but I  “know” him, and keep his saying. 

    John 8: 56….. your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 

    John 8 : 57…… “then said the Jews unto him, you are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?  ( Jesus never said that or even implied it either that is how those blind Jew took what he was saying , just as the blind guides of today take it also).

    John 8: 58……Jesus said unto them, verily, varily, I say unto you , before Abraham “was” , I am. 

    The word there for “was” , comes from the Greek word  “ginomai” means “caused to be”.  the word for “cause ” implies a “reason for being”. 

    Jesus was showing his importance, to them ,  by saying he was ahead of Abraham in the creative plan of God for  humanity.  He prexisted Abraham in the plan of God. He was not saying he was alive before Abraham was at all.

    Next point,  notice Jesus did not say he “knew” God, as in a past , but he “knows” God, as in the present.  He said it three times, never using any past tense expressions.  Had Jesus known God in the past before his birth he would have used that expression.

    As I said Berean,  there is more in the text then first meats the eye, to them who have eyes to see it.

    Peace and love to you all and yours………gene

     

     

     

    #867245
    Berean
    Participant

    Edj

    you

    Berean said:
    The Father speaking to the Son
    Why are you adding to God’s Word what it does not say?

    Me

    Edj

    If you read carefully the text of Hebrews 1 from the beginning, you will realize that indeed, it is indeed the Father who speaks to the Son in the verses that I have quoted.

    I put in red what concerns God (the Father)
    Maybe I forget …

     

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    [4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
    [6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
    [7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
    [8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    [9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
    [10] And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
    [11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    [12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
    [13] But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
    [14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

    #867246
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    JOHN 8 [53] Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

    GREATER

    meizwn
    meizon
    mide’-zone
    irregular comparative of megaV – megas 3173; larger (literally or figuratively, specially, in age):–elder, greater(-est), more.

     

     

    #867247
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: One of Jesus’ many names is “the Word of God”.

      He is not called that because he is a literal word(s) God spoke. 

    He is called that because he is God’s preeminent spokesman. 

    Just like the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia was named “the Word of the King” (Kal Hatze).  That human being wasn’t literally a word that the King of Abyssinia uttered, Gene.  He was named “the Word of the King” because he spoke on behalf of the King. 

    Jesus is named “the Word of God” because he speaks on behalf of God.

     

    ME: Mike your reasoning above makes PERFECT SENSE,

    ONLY WHEN IT IS A REFERENCE TO HUMAN BEINGS. 

    HOW ON EARTH

    YOU PUT GOD, CREATOR, IN THE SAME BASKET AS HUMANS, HIS CREATURES, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT

    THEY WERE /ARE CURSED, SATANIC, AND MORTAL THROUGH SIN.

    Now read WHAT GOD SAID:

    Isaiah 55: 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts:

    nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,

    so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my word be,

    Reading 10 above God simply made it clear that THE PHYSICAL PROCESS OF THE WORLD/WORLDS HAS TWO PERCEPTIONS, NOT JUST PHYSICAL BUT ALSO

    SPIRITUAL. THE TRUTH HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN.Attention Mike 

    ALL ESTABLISHED/CREATED BY 

    GOD ALONE! SPIRIT, BY

    GOD’S OWN WORD! SPIRIT!

    NOT BY GOD ALONE! 

    WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT! WHY YOU MIGHT ASK?

    VERY SIMPLE!

    AS FLESH/PHYSICAL COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO

    GOD’S OWN WORK;

    IT IS HIS SPIRIT “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN WHICH GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE  TO

    ALL OF GOD’S WORK!  John1:1-4, John6:27, Colossians 1:15-20

    WHATEVER IS PHYSICAL IN ACTUAL FACT IS

    SPIRITUAL!!!

    COMPRESSED INTO PHYSICAL AND IT ONLY BECAME HARD THROUGH CORRUPTION. THROUGH THE SIN OF THE REBEL IN HEAVEN IN WHICH “THE WORD” WAS/IS SEALED AS ETERNAL LIFE. IN ORDER TO ACCOMPLISH GOD’S WILL AND ALL WOULD BE RESTORED AGAIN BACK INTO PERFECTION. Well pinpointed out in

    Matthew 3:9

    And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’

    I tell you that out of these stones

    God can raise up children for Abraham.

    Matthew 17:20  if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed,

    you shall say to this mountain,

    Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove;

    and nothing shall be impossible to you. 

    A PERSON WITH 100% FAITH IN JESUS COULD SPEAK TO ANYTHING PHYSICAL  AND IT SIMPLY DO WHATEVER HE ASKS AS “THE WORD” WITHIN THAT PARTICULAR PHYSICAL, JESUS, SIMPLY ACCOMPLISHES IT INSTANTLY.

    OK Mike, within those stones, within that mountain, and within the entire process of the world/worlds there is

    “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man, as a SPIRIT.

    SLAIN….and SEALED, PRECISELY

    THE ACTUAL LIFE AND EXISTENCE OF ALL.

    .John1:1-4, John6:27, Colossians 1:15-20

     

    …..which shall go forth from my mouth:

     

    UNLESS THE WORD OF GOD, SPIRIT, COMES OUT OF GOD’S MOUTH

    NOTHING IS CREATED/HAPPENED. 

    THAT SPIRIT Mike is precisely THE SON JESUS.

    AN INFINITESIMAL SPIRIT WHICH NO MICROSCOPE COULD BE INVENTED IN ORDER TO BE DETECTED! NOT ONLY THAT BUT

    WITHIN THAT SPIRIT ABIDES ETERNALLY

    THE FATHER!

    SHIELDED AND PROTECTED  BY HIS SON, and 

    THE SON EMPOWERED BY THE FATHER THROUGH THE 

    HOLY GHOST

    And without that

    SPIRIT “THE WORD”

    THE FATHER COULD NOT FUNCTION AT ALL AS A CREATOR. 

    BEFORE CREATION STARTED THE STORY WAS THE OPPOSITE!

    IT WAS 

    THE SON WITHIN THE FATHER!

    WHICH WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THE FATHER TO CREATE!

    AD EXTRA

    OUTSIDE OF HIMSELF!

    THUS GOD PRONOUNCED HIS FIRST EVER WORD

    LET THERE BE LIGHT!

    THAT LIGHT IS/WAS THE SON

    THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT.

    THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE  WAS IN PITCH DARKNESS UP TO THAT MOMENT IN TIME! DEAD and at the same time FULL OF LIFE BUT STATIC!

    NOW READ AND BE AWARE

    ….it shall not return to me void, 

    DO YOU THINK Mike,

    JESUS CHRIST ON THE FATHER’S RIGHT HAND IS

    VOID?

    ….but it shall do whatsoever I please,

    and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    NOW with your reasoning

    can you tell me 

    WHAT HUMAN WORD CAN DO IN ORDER TO BE 

    EQUAL and COMPARED WITH GOD’S

    WORD?

    SO YOU PUT IT IN THE SAME BASKET LIKE YOU DID WHEN YOU COMPARED IT WITH

    the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia AND SAID THAT HE

    YOU: was named “the Word of the King” (Kal Hatze).  That human being wasn’t literally a word that the King of Abyssinia uttered, Gene.  He was named “the Word of the King” because he spoke on behalf of the King. 

    Jesus is named “the Word of God” because he speaks on behalf of God.

    WITH EVERY RESPECT Mike

    YOU ARE WRONG!

     

    YOU SEE Mike, FOR JESUS TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF GOD WAS THE 

    TINIEST

    TASK JESUS DID STILL DOING FOR GOD

    BOTH AS A SPIRIT WHEN HE SPOKE/SPEAKS WITHIN GOD’S CREATURES UP TO THIS DAY AND ETERNALLY, AND AS A HUMAN WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH! FROM THE OTHER HAND

    THE BIGGEST MYSTERIOUS TASK JESUS DID AND STILL DOING AS “THE WORD” SPIRIT, WAS AND IS  WHEN HE WAS

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WOLRD Rev.13:8.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #867249
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……No Mike is right, Jesus is called thec word of God because he speaks to us thec words of God,  not “his” words,  or don’t  you believe what Jesus said ,  the word I am telling you are “NOT” my word , but the words of him who sent me.  

    Jesus plainly tell you THE WORDS HE WAS TELLING THEM WAS “NOT” FROM HIMSELF.

    How much clearer can it get?

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #867250
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Brean……did you see,  (greater) or  (greatest) , more ,  (as in more “important” then)  if is obvisely what they were saying and meaning.  The translation has it right even in the English.

    They were comparing Jesus to Abraham,  as in Greater in “importance”,   they were not descussing his age, at that point of the text, the age thing came up later in the text . Why do you feel  you have to change what is clearly meant?

    Please go back and read it all and think about it?

    Peace and love to you and yours…….gene

     

    #867251
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Yes verse 53 it is about the importance
    but in verse 57,58 of the age …. Also it is clear for me that Jesus existed long before Abraham.

    #867252
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    God created the universe through the Son.

    #867253
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Carmel……No Mike is right, Jesus is called thec word of God because he speaks to us thec words of God,  not “his” words,  or don’t  you believe what Jesus said ,  the word I am telling you are “NOT” my word , but the words of him who sent me.

    Yes he spoke God’s words. So he is the Word of God. He is the full expression of God.

    He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD. 

    Thus, he the The Word of God.

    She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

    Thus, he is Jesus.

    #867254
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But Gene will agree he is Jesus, but not the Word of God? Why? Pride?

    #867255
    Berean
    Participant

    When you’re an old man … it’s hard to turn back …
    It’s easier to break an atom than to break a prejudice

    #867256
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj, …..The first man resurected from the dead to enter the kingdom of God,  is what I said. But to help clarify it to you, he is the first man,  as a human being, to be resurected back to life eternal, never able to die again. Does that make clearer for you?

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #867257
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….OK, we now agree on  that,  now let’s move on,   did you notice that Jesus never used the   ( pastense)  when referencing to God the Father?  Can we agree on that also?

    2….. question,  what did Jesus call them? (The Jews talking to him) .  Did he said they were liars?

    3…..did Jesus say,  I have  “known ” God as in (past tense)  no, he said I “know” him, as in (present tense).  

    Now my question to you is, if Jesus had “known”  God, as in a Past life,  don’t you think he would have said so? If he was trying to prove he “prexisted” ?

    Let’s stop there for right now and see if we can agree, then we can move on brother. There is more to this, but want to go a step at a time.

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

     

    #867258
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer,  wrong again , no he is NOT, the word of God “himself” he is called that “because” he spoke God the Fathers words to us. Me and Mike agree on that.

     

    What you are not realizing is that these people think that he “IS”  GOD’S WORD “HIMSELF” . God spoke “through him”, but that dosen’t make him God’s words, no more then if God were to speak through the prophets, you or anyone else.  The “MAN” Jesus,  carried God the Fathers message to us, a “mediator” 

    “Unto us there is but one God and one “mediator”  between God and men,  the “MAN” Jesus” . 

    A mediator represents someone or something, but he is not that person or thing he represents.

    Can we agree on that?

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #867259
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel, Carmel, your so confused,  Jesus is “NOT” that Spirit, that dwelt in him, no more then we are that Spirit either. 

    “But if the “Spirit” of Him that raised Jesus from the “dead” dwell in you, “HE”  that raised up Christ (the anointed one) from the dead shall also quicken your mortal (dead) “BODIES” , BY THE SPIRIT THAT DWELLS “IN” YOU. 

    Carmel there you go  how simple, how straight forward, can you get.  You have no way around this scripture. It is the exact Same Spirit that was “IN” Jesus that raised him up from the dead, that is in us and will do the same thing for us also.  That Spirit is the Spirit of the LIVING GOD, given to the “Man” Jesus , and us also who have it. That Spirit is God himself,  therefore it says , “That God may be in you “ALL” and through “ALL”.   

    AND AGAIN. …..” know you not that your “body” is the temple of the Living God”.?

    I do not seperate Jesus’ human identity and relationship with God from my own, he is the “FIRST” born of “MANY” brethern”. 

    Think about it Carmel.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

     

    #867260
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Gene

    In John 8:58 Jesus makes it clear that he existed BEFORE ABRAHAM
    THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE
    SO DON’T THINK THAT I BELIEVE YOUR FALSE REASONING.
    YES JESUS IS BIGGER THAN ABRAHAM
    1- IN AGE
    2- IN IMPORTANCE
    THE BIBLE IS FULL OF QUOTES ON THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST AND HIS PREEXISTENCE.

    #867261
    Berean
    Participant

    Lexicon :: Strong’s G1096 – ginomai

    γίνομαι
    Transliteration
    ginomai (Key)
    Pronunciation
    ge’-no-mi (Key)
    Part of Speech
    verb
    Root Word (Etymology)
    A prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
    Greek Inflections of γίνομαι [?]
    mGNT
    670x in 81 unique form(s) TR
    676x in 87 unique form(s) LXX
    1,703x in 103 unique form(s)γεγενημένον — 2x
    γεγενῆσθαι — 1x
    γεγένησθε — 2x
    Γέγονα — 1x
    γέγονα — 4x
    γεγόναμεν — 2x
    γέγονας — 3x
    γέγονασιν — 1x
    γεγόνασιν — 2x
    γεγόνατε — 2x
    Γέγονεν — 1x
    γέγονεν — 34x
    γεγονέναι — 4x
    γεγονὸς — 4x
    γεγονός — 3x
    γεγονότας — 1x
    γεγονότες — 2x
    γεγονότι — 1x
    γεγονυῖα — 1x
    γεγονὼς — 1x
    γενέσθαι — 38x
    γένεσθε — 1x
    γενέσθω — 5x
    γενηθέντας — 1x
    γενηθέντες — 2x
    γενηθέντων — 1x
    γενηθῆναι — 1x
    γενήθητε — 1x
    Γενηθήτω — 2x
    γενηθήτω — 6x
    γενήσεσθε — 2x
    γενήσεται — 10x
    γένησθε — 7x
    γενησόμενον — 1x
    γένηταί — 1x
    γένηται — 45x
    γένοιτό — 1x
    γένοιτο — 16x
    γενόμενα — 7x
    γενόμεναι — 4x
    γενομένην — 4x
    Γενομένης — 3x
    γενομένης — 31x
    γενόμενοι — 6x
    γενομένοις — 2x
    γενόμενον — 5x
    γενόμενος — 26x
    γενομένου — 8x
    Γενομένων — 1x
    γενομένων — 1x
    γένωμαι — 2x
    γενώμεθα — 1x
    γένωνται — 4x
    γίνεσθαι — 10x
    γινέσθαι — 1x
    Γίνεσθε — 3x
    γίνεσθε — 21x
    γινέσθω — 3x
    γίνεται — 26x
    γινόμενα — 4x
    γινομένας — 1x
    γινομένη — 1x
    γινομένῃ — 1x
    γινόμενοι — 2x
    γινομένοις — 1x
    γινόμενον — 4x
    γινομένων — 1x
    γινόνται — 1x
    γίνου — 5x
    γινώμεθα — 3x
    γίνωνται — 1x
    ἐγεγόνει — 2x
    ἐγένεσθε — 3x
    ἐγένετο — 168x
    ἐγενέτο — 1x
    Ἐγένετο — 35x
    ἐγενήθη — 11x
    ἐγενήθημεν — 7x
    ἐγενήθησάν — 1x
    ἐγενήθησαν — 2x
    ἐγενήθητε — 4x
    ἐγενόμην — 13x
    ἐγένοντο — 17x
    Ἐγένοντο — 1x
    ἐγένου — 2x
    ἐγίνετο — 1x
    Ἐγίνετο — 1x
    Dictionary Aids

    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
    to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
    to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

    of events
    to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage

    of men appearing in public
    to be made, finished

    of miracles, to be performed, wrought
    to become, be made

     

    IN SUMMARY
    BEFORE ABRAHAM COMES INTO EXISTENCE,

    JESUS SAYS:

    I AM

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