John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,321 through 21,340 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #867171
    Lulu
    Participant

    I joined 5 days ago.

    #867172
    princess
    Participant

    Jesus is his name. He is Jesus.

    The Word of God is his name. He is the Word of God.

    The Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    🔅language, language. the word & flesh are physical. your metaphysical faith does not work out. finding truth has nothing to do with the physical, no matter how many crowns, commas, uppercase, lower case, color schemes you use.

    the language of humanity, you do get that right?

    this also puts you in  the human worshiping category . so as long as you don’t have him carved in stone your alright. so saints are stoned and gods are crucified. got it.

    not saying, anything im fighting a few myself, so i get it. but come on man! what you have read and seen and know, it’s like you hold in and discard discussion early in the game, look at this thread, has anyone answered right yet? casting lots i say it’s divided.

    its your god, i get it. i respect the dedication. i get it, you get grief on matters, look who your debating/writing with repeatedly, all that you have to give you give what!?! so intelligent you are and that knowledge being pulled down to this. just blows me away.

    quit trying to figure it all out and start living it, breathing it, feel it, touch it just love it! give you a taste of what im going through, brought a praying mantis into the house due to the cold. i don’t know if its going to make it through, living with me can be to say the least, a bit trying. the same heartbeat i could like pull the  teeth out oblivious individuals, grind them down to fertilize the house plants. its not pretty. dude, rue the day.  ♥♥♥♥

    its not the blood, its spirit. elementals, my dear Watson. fire, water, sound, vibration. remove the veil, tear it in 2. technically or since you go by the book, jesus is your brother. everyone leaves that out. prophets have it tough, always did.

     

    Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.'”…10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11For both the One who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. 12He says: “I will proclaim Your name to My brothers; I will sing Your praises in the assembly.”…

    so he isn’t your brother he is your god.🔆!

    praise me !o! by all means, do so 💦 !o! oh, wait i have to suffer to receive praise, 🤔wait a second…….this is the marshmallow test right! where are those tootsie pops when you need them. 😊

    i miss T

     

     

    #867173
    princess
    Participant

    Hi Edj, truly it’s been a week of blue full moons.

    #867175
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    language, language. the word & flesh are physical. your metaphysical faith does not work out. finding truth has nothing to do with the physical, no matter how many crowns, commas, uppercase, lower case, color schemes you use.

    Wow you get all that from my simple words to Gene which are there to remind him of that which is written which he teaches against.

    this also puts you in  the human worshiping category . so as long as you don’t have him carved in stone your alright. so saints are stoned and gods are crucified. got it.

    Got what exactly?

    quit trying to figure it all out and start living it, breathing it, feel it, touch it just love it!

    Heaven Net is a forum that tests what is true and what is false regarding God, the Bible, Jesus Christ, and the Kingdom of God. It is where teachings extracted from the Bible are tested using the Bible. What you are saying doesn’t fit the the function of this website. What you say here is more about lives expressed outside of this website. If you think Heaven Net is the full picture of any member here, then you are wrong. Maybe its possible that myself and others express a more business mind in emails, a more social and humorous exchange on Facebook, and loving relationships with family and friends and also strangers in real life. Perhaps you could not possibly judge all that from Heaven Net just as reading my work emails is not likely to give much away about the real me.

    What is going on in your head Miia? Why do you feel the need to criticize just because I correct people using scripture on Heaven Net?

    #867176
    Ed J
    Participant

    Are you new to this site?

    I joined 5 days ago.

    Hi Lulu,

    Welcome!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #867177
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Edj, truly it’s been a week of blue full moons.

    Hi Princess,

    I know “a blood moon” is a solar eclipse

    But what’s “a blue moon” ?

    ______________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #867178
    Ed J
    Participant

    come on man!

    Princess, is that your Joe Biden impression?

    #867179
    Ed J
    Participant

    i miss T

    You mean Pierre?

    #867180
    Ed J
    Participant

    what’s “a blue moon” ?

    Is that “two full moons” in one Month?

    #867181
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lulu……you were giving us the English definition of the word “Before” it’s not the same in Greek.

    STRONG…..Greek (pro) ….A primary preposition; “fore”, that is, “in front of” , prior (figuratively superior) to. 

    That is the Greek meaning of the word (pro) that is used in the text. 

    Jesus was not telling them he was “alive” before Abraham at all, but was more important to them then Abraham was.  

    Peace and love to you and yours…….gene

     

    #867183
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj……The term blue moon, can express feeling bad. Princess could be going through a sad time right now.

    If you are Princess, hope you get to feeling better.

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #867185
    Berean
    Participant

    There is No Biblical proof that Jesus did not exist before Abraham.

    Jésus IS The SON OF GOD WHO WAS WITH (THE)GOD IN THE BIGINNING AND HE WAS GOD…

    #867186
    Berean
    Participant

    prin
    prin
    prin
    Matt 1:18, Matt 26:34, Matt 26:75, Mark 14:30, Mark 14:72, Luke 2:26, Luke 22:34, Luke 22:61, John 4:49, John 8:58, John 14:29, Acts 2:20, Acts 7:2, Acts 25:16

     

    prin
    prin
    adverb from pro – pro 4253; prior, sooner:–before (that), ere.

     

    #867187
    princess
    Participant

    you really don’t have a clue do you !0!

    Mila, such a beautiful soul that she is, isn’t me.

    I don’t hide in sheep’s clothing.  nor behind a blood god that demands Human sacrifice  when presented with scriptural teachings that oh say  Shake it up a bit. You come back with business emails, FB  really!?!

    your reply is nothing more then a childish notion

    in all honesty you really don’t know what to believe and as long as you have the Bible in one hand and man in the other you are just fine keeps you grounded. Then have at it !0!

    don’t know which god to pick but hey three heads are better then one !0!
    I just can’t…..

    👑 princess 👑

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #867188
    princess
    Participant

    Edj,

    I love that you search for the impossible.

    #867189
    princess
    Participant

    You mean Pierre?

    yes ❤️

    #867190
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……How interesting, your diffenition of the GREEK WORD ((prin) is completely different then the one I copied and posted from STRONGS concordance,  (G4250)  

    But then that’s what you people do, you force the text to say what in fact it is not saying, to meet your false “trinitarian”,  preexisting,  teachings.

    Get a Strongs concordance and just check it out for a change. Or get yourself an actual Greek Dictionary.

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #867191
    Berean
    Participant

    Strong’s Number G4250 matches the Greek πρίν (prin),
    which occurs 14 times in 14 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

    View results using the NASB Greek concordance
    TOOLS
     Mat 1:18
    Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before G4250 they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
    TOOLS
     Mat 26:34
    Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before G4250 the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
    TOOLS
     Mat 26:75
    And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before G4250 the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
    TOOLS
     Mar 14:30
    And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before G4250 the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
    TOOLS
     Mar 14:72
    And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before G4250 the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.
    TOOLS
     Luk 2:26
    And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before G4250 he had seen the Lord’s Christ.
    TOOLS
     Luk 22:34
    And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that G4250 thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
    TOOLS
     Luk 22:61
    And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before G4250 the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
    TOOLS
     Jhn 4:49
    The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere G4250 my child die.
    TOOLS
     Jhn 8:58
    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before G4250 Abraham was, I am.
    TOOLS
     Jhn 14:29
    And now I have told you before G4250 it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
    TOOLS
     Act 2:20
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before G4250 that great and notable day of the Lord come:
    TOOLS
     Act 7:2
    And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before G4250 he dwelt in Charran,
    TOOLS
     Act 25:16
    To whom I answered, It is not the manner of the Romans to deliver any man to die, before G4250 that he which is accused have the accusers face to face, and have licence to answer for himself concerning the crime laid against him.

    #867192
    Berean
    Participant

    None of the texts mentioned (in 867191) has the meaning of “more important”

    #867193
    Berean
    Participant

    Transliteration
    prin (Key)
    Pronunciation
    pre’n (Key)
    Part of Speech
    adverb
    Root Word (Etymology)
    From πρό (G4253)
    Greek Inflections of πρίν [?]
    mGNT
    13x in 1 unique form(s) TR
    14x in 2 unique form(s) LXX
    28x in 1 unique form(s)Πρὶν — 3x
    πρὶν — 11x
    Dictionary Aids
    Vine’s Expository Dictionary: View Entry
    KJV Translation Count — Total: 14x
    The KJV translates Strong’s G4250 in the following manner: before (11x), before that (2x), ere (1x).
    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
    before, formerly
    Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
    πρίν prín, prin; adverb from G4253; prior, sooner:—before (that), ere.
    Thayer’s Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
    STRONGS NT 4250: πρίν
    πρίν ((according to Curtius, § 380 comparitive προιον, προιν, πρίν)), as in Greek writings from Homer down:
    1. an adverb previously,formerly (cf. πάλαι, 1): 3Macc. 5:28 3Macc. 6:4, 31; but never so in the N. T.
    2. with the force of a conjunction, before, before that: with an accusative and aorist infinitive of things past (cf. Winers Grammar, § 44, 6 at the end; Buttmann, § 142, 3); πρίν Ἀβραάμ γενέσθαι, before Abraham existed, came into being, John 8:58; also πρίν ἤ (cf. Meyer on Matthew 1:18), Matthew 1:18; (Acts 7:2); with an aorist infinitive haying the force of the Latin future perfect, of things future (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 332 (311)): πρίν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι, before the cock shall have crowed,

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