John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,221 through 21,240 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866983
    Berean
    Participant

    who has sent his angel and rescued his servants!

    THIS Angel IS the Angel OF the Lord

    Not a mere angel but Thé Angel

    who is assimilated to YHWH HIMSELF

    “In reading passages that mention the angel of the Lord (YHWH) such as in Exodus 3 and many other passages, you can see that the text quickly conflates the angel of the Lord with YHWH. In contrast, when an angel appears without this distinction, the angel maintains his own identity separate from YHWH. – Dieter Sep 9 ’17 at 1:35”

    #866984
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    The below passages give us a clear message,

    Luke 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    John 3:34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that THIS IS the Son of God.

    2 Peter 1: 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God, …..

    ….1:10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” 

    Jesus of Nazareth is called God’s only begotten Son BECAUSE JESUS was the only one begotten of the Spirit of God not by measure, filled with grace and TRUTH where he would PREACH the word of God.  Such was an anointing that no other mortal man received, whereupon that anointing he was thus the Son of God who was SENT out into the world being not of the world but directly down from heaven, sent to us directly from God for to be our savior, where people beheld his glory as he did God’s work through the Spirit that he had been begotten with. 

     

    #866985
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    God sends HIS angels, who are His Sons, to earth to perform His will, and they obey Him.

    Daniel 3 is speaking of one of God’s Sons, an angel, that performed God’s will. 

    #866986
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    “You have not responded as I am aware, that you are told directly from scripture, that there was NO COMING of a savior UNTIL AFTER John preached of baptism. But that is not what you say.”

    Me

    The divine Son of God pre-exist and WAS BEFORE JOHN THE BAPTIST

    John the Baptist :

    John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. (V.15)

    He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

     

    JESUS IS HE THAT COMETH FROM HEAVEN AND HE IS ABOVE ALL.

    #866987
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    Jesus, the Son of Man who is in heaven at God’s right hand, is the son of David, and he is “declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.”

    Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

    JESUS, as he sits at God’s right hand is NOT a Son of God because he pre-existed as God’s Son, he is a Son of Man who is God’s Son ACCORDING to the Spirit he received by promise, when he rose from the dead. 

    This same Spirit he had received at the river Jordan, when at that moment he was declared to be God’s Son. As he was the only mortal man to have received the Spirit not by measure he was God’s only begotten Son sent out into the world not being of the world.

    He died.

    He was raised given the Spirit for all eternity, a Son forevermore, and now a firstborn of many brethren, for we are joint heirs with him, being heirs of God’s Spirit for all eternity. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God, and we are promised to be conformed to the image of the Son. We will have the Spirit upon us leading us to walk in all of God’s ways, as it does Jesus. God had promised that He would be ALL in ALL, that all flesh would come to worship Him, that He did not make earth in vain but for it to be inhabited.

    Such is the End declared from the beginning, a new heaven and earth with Jesus as firstborn overall creation, a last Adam made in the image of God, a Son of God according to the Spirit. All things were made by God ALONE by reason of and for him, without him nothing would have been made that was made, for he brings forth eternal life. He fulfills God’s purpose for why God created all things in the first place. We will see this Son of Man in the glory of the Father returning having the honor to give eternal life to his brethren, as he was indeed anointed with the oil of gladness above his fellows.

    #866988
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    TOTAL FAIL on your part. 

    You need to post the scriptures I gave and talk about them or you have zero credibility. 

    Once again you divert to yet another verse you misinterpret.

     

    #866989
    Berean
    Participant

    YOU WOULD DO WELL TO CALM YOURSELF … I PROPOSE YOU TO GO REST A LITTLE. WHAT I TELL YOU IS THE TRUTH.

    #866990
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    TO ALL……Go back and reread, no not read, but seriously study,  what JODI has written, espically her post on 10/20/2020, # 866980, 

    That is the “APSOLUTE TRUTH “.   study it, and you will reconize the “TRUTH”,  if you truly have the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH ” in you.  those who don’t are simply blinded by all the confusion in Christanity  brought on by Satan and his servants .

    Peace and love to you all and yours………….gene

    #866991
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean you would not know the truth if it bit you in the ass.  Your so far out there , you don’t even know if your afoot or horseback, in my opinion , and you certanily are not alone here that’s for sure.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

    #866992
    Jodi
    Participant

    Thanks Gene,

    As Proclaimer has made the point numerous times that we just argue that Jesus was a man and that’s it, the truth is there is much more that we have been showing through the scriptures we post. 

    There needs to be a discussion, and I did post this rather recently to Mike, around what is the END that we are given.

    Likewise, people need to acknowledge that this End which is a New Beginning was declared by God from the beginning. Such is not an after thought, but it is a clear given truth that needs to be at the forefront of the mind when reading all of scripture. 

    When you see what the End is and know it was declared from the beginning, and you apply this clear given truth to all of scripture, there is not one scripture that teaches Jesus pre-existed. They all teach that God, who clearly states that He created all things by Himself, did so by reason of and for the Son of Man who would fulfill all of His will, fulfill that which was the VERY REASON AS TO WHY God created all things in the first place. 

    #866993
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    “Berean you would not know the truth if it bit you in the ass.  Your so far out there , you don’t even know if your afoot or horseback, in my opinion , and you certanily are not alone here that’s for sure.”

    Me

    Ah ah that’s all you can say … how sad
    This proves that you are not from God but from the Devil

    #866994
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    As said earlier,

    Jesus who was the Son of Man exalted to God’s right hand, is God’s Son ACCORDING TO the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead, where he had received that Spirit when he rose from the dead ACCORDING TO A PROMISE. 

    People that is clear given truth, where it is then a lie to say that our lord Jesus Christ in heaven is God’s Son because he pre-existed as God’s firstborn before heaven and earth were created.

    Psalm 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I WILL make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will establish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    In the time that Chronicles and the Psalms were written, there is NO firstborn yet of God, there is no Son of God dwelling in God’s house yet, there is no son of David with an eternal throne yet,  Such was ALL a promise of what WOULD BE.

    Below Jesus is NOT identified as God’s Son according to you people’s doctrine that you preach, he is God’s Son directly according to prophecy, according to scripture that gave a PROMISE.  

    Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 

    Jesus is God’s Son according to scripture, not according to doctrine made from misinterpretation of scriptures. 

    Jesus is God’s Son according to God’s goodness/mercy that He bestowed upon Jesus, giving him all the fruits of His Holy Spirit. Jesus is the son of David whom God BECAME a Father to ACCORDING TO A PROMISE.

    Jesus had died, but God raised him from the dead, where on that day, David’s son was begotten of the Spirit for all eternity, made a firstborn over all of creation just as was PROMISED. God had promised that He would keep his goodness with him forever, never taking it away. Jesus received the Holy Spirit ACCORDING to a PROMISE, being begotten of the Spirit on that day he was raised from the dead. 

    This was all YHVH’s WORD from the beginning, all things that YHVH had created ALONE, BY HIMSELF, He did by reason of and for THIS firstborn, who would be a firstborn of many brethren, who was PROMISED to have first place overall. Nothing would have been made that was made without him, for through Him YHVH had declared from the beginning that ONE MAN would execute YHVH’s purpose for creating all things in the first place.

    YHVH had promised eternal life before the world even began, IN that WORD was the ONE MAN who would bring forth that promise, so when all things were being made by YHVH ALONE they were being made by reason of (THROUGH) him. 

    #866995
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Get real, Gene has said plenty, given you scriptures like I have that you ignore and refuse to discuss, which goes to show you have zero credibility unto God’s word.

    One must be able to discuss any and all of scripture and show how any passage fits perfectly with their understanding to other scriptures.

    #866996
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    you loop with your earthly Christ
    and you ignore the true Christ who comes from heaven (dwelling of God)

    #866998
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Christ is NOT earthly! Your perception of my belief is false, and if you have read what I have posted you would know I would never say such a thing. 

    When Jesus was ANOINTED with the Spirit and SENT out into the world TO PREACH the word of God, he said that he was not of this world. Christ is not earthly, he is HEAVENLY, sent down from heaven, sent directly from God. 

    The image of my Christ is according to God’s EXACT WORDS, a man anointed with the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Reverence for YHVH, who was then sent out into the world not being of the world, not speaking of the earth earthly things, but being OF HEAVEN and speaking HEAVENLY things. The heavenly WORD that he spoke was that he would die but he would ascend to where he was before, and show many that God’s word from before the world was, of eternal life unto mankind, is true in him, so that people would put their faith in our One True God the Father YHVH, and desire YHVH’s Spirit just as Jesus received, the Spirit that makes a human a Son of God, a heavenly man. 

    #867000
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Scripture does not teach that

    Jesus went back to a former being, At ALL.

    THE ABOVE ARE LIES!

    NOW READ THE TRUTH:

    John 6:62 If then you shall see

    the Son of man ascend up where he was BEFORE?

     

    John17:5 And now glorify thou me,

    O Father, with thyself,

    with the glory

    WHICH I HAD

    BEFORE the world was, with thee.

     John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that

    I CAME OUT from God.

    28 I CAME FORTH from the Father,

    and am come INTO (not out into) the world:

    AGAIN

    I LEAVE  the world, and

    I GO TO THE FATHER.

    keep silence Jodi  or else

    we read

    more lies 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #867001
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: GENE: TO ALL……Go back and reread, no not read, but seriously study,  what JODI has written, espically her post on 10/20/2020, # 866980,

    ME Here it COMES Gene:

    THE FATHER OF LIES!

    Jodi:

    To All,

    The Word from the beginning,

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    1ST. LIE: The Word from the beginning

    was made

    true in Jesus,

    ME: TRUTH: John 1:14  And the Word was

    MADE FLESH,

    (JESUS IS THE WORD, ITSELF Jodi,)

    Confirmed by Jesus himself in

    John12:48 He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath 

    ONE (JESUS, THE SON OF MAN)

    that judgeth him;

    THE WORD (JESUS’SPIRIT)

    that I have spoken,

    the same shall judge him in the last day. 

    and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying:

    This was he of whom I spoke:

    He that shall come after me,

    is preferred before me: because

    HE WAS BEFORE ME.

    PRE-EXISTED!

    YOU: ….no not read, but seriously study,  

    YES Gene, I DID SERIOUSLY STUDY AND I DID ALSO

    DISCOVERED:

    ONE PURE LIE:

    DOWN!  AND

    MORE TO GO

    FROM YOUR god of lies.

    Jodi

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #867003
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    God’s angels appear as men on earth and they are the Sons of God. Daniel 3 is not any sort of proof that Jesus pre-existed.

    Angels are messengers. Jesus is a messenger among many other things. John the Baptist was a messenger too.

    #867004
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU:God’s angels appear as men on earth and they are the Sons of God. Daniel 3

    is not any sort of proof that Jesus pre-existed.

    Jodi your PREACHING IS CRAMMED WITH

    LIES! READ:

     

    Galatians 4:14 You despised not, nor rejected:

    but received me as

    an angel of God,

    even as Christ Jesus.

    THE ANGEL OF THE LORD

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #867005
    Ed J
    Participant

    Edj…..Jodi and I, are not fence walkers, we both know exactly what we are saying and have produced countless scriptures over and over to back up exactly what we are saying.

    Even demons believe

    Bull. All you do is quote Jesus humanity which no one here disagrees with. But you do not accept the full counsel of scripture. You take a snapshot of him coming in the flesh and with human reasoning say that he was created with no prior history and is still a man (adam). You try to hide the fact that he was with God in the beginning. The eternal life with the Father who came from heaven, came in flesh, died, rose again, and is in the glory he had with the Father. Even demons were more truthful Gene.

    Hi T8,

    Well “Proclaimed”!

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