John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,241 through 21,260 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #867006
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …..You as the rest have bought into the biggest “lie”  in religion, which makes Jesus different the the rest of humanity, and that “lie” is exactly what Satan wants you to believe. 

    Jodi and I both believe , this in the beginning of God the Fathers creation of this earth he had in mind the comming into existence the “MAN” Jesus, and at the proper time he brought him forth as a 100% human and only a human being, he never “prexisted ” his berth on this earth, except in the “plan” of Almighty God. 

    At the proper time God brought Jesus forth from humanity, from  the linage of King David, just as Jesus himself said, as well as the apostle Paul.  He did not send to this earth a “preexisting ” being , and morph him into a human body as you people “FALSELY” PREACH. 

    What you Proclaimer,  and they have done is take a ordinary human, how be it  a highly exhulted and glorified human , and turned him into a God, or  Angel, or as in your case “whatever”, I don’t recall you ever saying exactly, but it dosen’t matter,  because you haven’t a clue what he was before his berth on this earth neitherdo they.  So you just go alone with the rest of  the false teachers here.  

    You can call me and Jodi what ever you people want to, but we have a advantage over you people, we have the “spirit of truth” “in” us guiding our thoughts, we are taught by that Spirit given us, Just as Jesus said ,”you shall all be taught by God” , You and they on the other hand are taught by a deluding Spirit given those who do not “love” the truth.  

    Thats the difference here, you people turn  a man, into your object of worship and even your  God,  you completely ignore the first commandment,  “you shall have no other God besides me” .  You act as if that commandment doesent even exist, not to even mention the rest of what God the Father has said, you have not the fear of God “in” you.  You People deny scriptures even though we produce those scriptures over and over to you. You twist up and add word to almost every scripture you use,  to try to justify you false teachings. Instead of asking God for the “Spirit (cognisity) of Truth” so you can reconize the truth when you hear it , you follow after the teachings of Satan, the deluding Spirit that exists in most all of Christianity.  The Spirit of the air that works in the childern of disobedience. 

    To all……go back and “steady”  what Jodi wrote,  10/20/2020,  post # 866980 . 

    Peace and love to you all and yours. ……….gene

     

     

    #867008
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..You haven’t begun to understand truth, what you post not only dosen’t make sense, but is not even quoted as it is written.  Why do you feel you must add your own words to the text, is it not to support your false assumptions?   Carmel,  nearly “all” christanity have been corrupted over the last 2000 years.  The modern churches today have fallen away from the truth, and bought into Satan biggest lie, about  the “SON OF MAN” JESUS, being turned into a GOD,    2THS2  , explains it all to those who have eyes to see.  That man mentioned there is the “MAN” Jesus Christ.  Who you along with your teacher Satan Has turned into your GOD and you worship him as your God .  Just as all the apostate churches do. Let’s see where that “IDOLATROUS ” practice will end you up at. 

    You still have time to repent Carmel.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

     

     

     

     

    #867009
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Yes, the very word translated as angel, Mal’ak, means messenger, and sometimes the surrounding context let’s you know that the Mal’ak is a celestial messengers verses a human messenger.

    Daniel 3 is no proof that Jesus pre-existed and was this particular Son of God who God sent to carry out His will and save Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

    #867012
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Daniel 3 is no proof that Jesus pre-existed and was this particular Son of God who God sent to carry out His will and save Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

    Of course you will brush off all the similarities if you do not accept direct evidence of the Son being the first begotten. For us who accept these scriptures that reveal the truth, we see other scriptures in the context of the firstborn of all creation.

    I agree that the Angel of the Lord and the Son who was before the cosmos is not direct proof for someone who doesn’t believe. But for us who believe, it is certainly very interesting.

    Let’s imagine that there was a scripture that called him the Angel of the Lord in the New Testament. You would brush it off wouldn’t you? How do I know? You did that with The Word of God.

    BTW, description is not the only clue. There are other reasons for seeing the two as the same person. But you wouldn’t accept them because you are set in your ways.

    #867015
    Jodi
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    Your statement is truly hypocritical.

    What are ALL the similarities in this case that point that this would be a pre-existent Jesus, the words “The Son of God”?

    John 1:7 is not referencing the LIGHT of Isaiah 42?

    John 1:10 doesn’t fulfill Isaiah’s prophecy of people rejecting their own kin as the anointed one?

    John 1:12 isn’t directly referencing Isaiah 45?

    John 1:14 is not YHVH’s Word of Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61 being made true in the flesh of Jesus? 

    John 1:16 isn’t referencing prophecy of Deuteronomy 18?

    John 1:49 isn’t referencing prophecy of of 1 Chronicles 17 and Psalms 89?

    ALL throughout John 1 you are being given prophecies fulfilled that were promises given unto the son of Abraham, Jesse and David, not promises unto a pre-existing son. In John 1 you are given YHVH’s word from the beginning of a man of David’s seed coming to be our savior executing God’s purpose for why He created all things ALONE in the first place, not a pre-existent firstborn Son coming to earth in order to save us.

    According to 1 Chronicles 17 and Psalm 89 there existed at that time NO Son of God yet who would one day receive an eternal kingdom, there was no firstborn yet who would be made higher than all the kings of the earth. 

    You can’t even accept scripture that YHVH said He created all things ALONE by HIMSELF, and that Jesus is a son of David according to the flesh and is God’s Son according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead, where he had received that Spirit when he rose from the dead according to a promise. 

    #867016
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Your statement is truly hypocritical.
    What are ALL the similarities in this case that point that this would be a pre-existent Jesus, the words “The Son of God”?

    Jodi, you need to tame the tongue.

    Did I not say there were scriptures that directly talk about the Son of God / Jesus Christ’s ancient origin?

    Then I stated that there are lots of inferences that line up with the direct scriptures as you would imagine if a certain thing were true. But that the inferences were not direct evidence on their own. And yes I can list them. But I’m not going to write an essay. I will maybe list one soon and if you pursue this, I might list more.

    Please pay attention Jodi. As you can see, I am not being hypocritical.

    #867017
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Jesus tells us that he came down from heaven (his first home and that of the Father) to come and do not his own will but that of the One who sent him.
    How can you not believe this?

    #867020
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Direct evidence showing his ancient origin

    Colossians 1:15-16
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    You obviously do not believe this as it is written. I bet you say you believe it, but your explanation will add or takeaway from what is clearly written. Whereas, myself and others can state this the way it is written and we fully stand behind it.

    An inferred or possible truth that aligns with the direct evidence

    Judges 13:18.

    Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    6383. pili or pali

    Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    6382 pele

    Some people ask, if Jesus Christ existed before coming in the flesh, then where is he mentioned in the Old Testament? Well we know he was the Word in the beginning and that he came in the flesh. But where is he actually mentioned. First off, this is a mystery, so it was not revealed in that time. But in hindsight (2020 AD), we read about the Angel (Messenger) of the LORD who many actually called God or the LORD which certainly aligns well with Colossians 1:15 quoted above.

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    You see, if Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God, then the Angel of the LORD who was visible and called God, gives us a match. But whether we consider this or not, clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and we also know that Jesus is called a messenger / angel in the Old Testament.

    Malachi 3:1
    “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking  will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.

    Most scholars read this as John the Baptist and Jesus Christ.

    #867028
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion like a fingerprint at the scene of a crime. By contrast, direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion directly. It doesn’t need inference, but truth is often accompanied by inference or circumstantial evidence.

    #867032
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Pray to God and ask that he open the scriptures to you

    He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”

    And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

    When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. They asked each other,

    “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

    #867039
    Ed J
    Participant

    Some people ask, if Jesus Christ existed before coming in the flesh, then where is he mentioned in the Old Testament?

    Hi T8,

    That’s an easy one, here is the verse right here:

    4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered
    the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment?
    who hath established all the ends of the earth?
    what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?
    (Prov 30:4)

    And here is what God says will happen to those who add to his word:

    5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” (Prov 30:5-6)

    A liar is one who tells lies, period.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #867044
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Satan uses cercumstanucial evidences to created his “Lies”,  like all those who force our bibical texts to say what in fact,  is not saying .  If you understood the reason why Satan wants people to believe in a “preexisting ” God/man Jesus, then you could understand the truth.  Satan does not want us to relate with Jesus on a human level, because he knows how much “FAITH” in GOD the Father that would generate in people, so he devised a plane to moves Jesus away from him being a ordinary  HUMAN BEING, a second Adam,  who GOD took from mankind and  ELEVATED to the highest position there is,  besides God himself,  he fully understands the human potential in mankind, and dosen’t want the rest of humanity to see that,  EXACTLY AS JESUS IS SO ARE WE. 

    It’s time you and everyone else here  gets rid of your so-called  “cercumstanucial ” evidences,  and get down to,  “the truth”.   Modern Christanity  teaches the biggest lies about the true Jesus there is and all based on “cercumstanial” evidence,  a twisted version of  what the truth is, designed by Satan himself. 2THS2.  

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene 

     

    #867050
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel…..You haven’t begun to understand truth, what you post not only dosen’t make sense, but is not even quoted as it is written.

    Gene, IT’S NO USE SCREAMING UNLESS YOU SIMPLY BE

    DECENT ENOUGH

    TO INCLUDE IN YOUR POST MINE, AND WHICH FOR YOU

    IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE,

    PLUS THAT YOU CONTRADICT ME BY USING WHAT IS FOR YOU FULL OF SENSE AND

    PROPER SCRIPTURE.

    AS IT IS THOUGH

    I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU SCREAMING ABOUT.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #867052
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Satan uses cercumstanucial evidences to created his “Lies”,  like all those who force our bibical texts to say what in fact,  is not saying .  If you understood the reason why Satan wants people to believe in a “preexisting ” God/man Jesus, then you could understand the truth.

    Show me the scripture that teaches us that. If you cannot, then this is from your own reasoning. Not that this makes you wrong, but you are wrong because we can state scriptures about Jesus Christ without adding or taking away from them, and you never quote them verbatim because they say the opposite of what you believe. When you quote them, you add in a commentary that adds or takes away from them.

    #867053
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    On a number of occasions, I have taken a scripture and made it look like my own words, by embedding it in a sentence that didn’t change the meaning one iota. And I watched you argue against it. That was all the proof I needed.

    Now is a good time to reassess what you believe and pray vehemently about it.

    #867054
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and all things abide in him.

    #867055
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and all things abide in him

    And Gene and Jodi are basically teaching us this:

    He is NOT before all things…

    Funny how obviously opposed they are to scripture. That is why they need to post long rants with a ton of human reasoning. Because when you make it simple like a yes or no, or ask them to make a short post with one point, they know it condemns them. The devil is often lurking in the details. Like the subtle lies of the serpent who said:

    …but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. “For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    #867056
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Paul: He is before all things
    Gene: He is not before all things

    God: you will die
    Satan: You will not surely die

    When scripture says it is, Gene and Jodi say it is not. Why is that?

    #867059
    Berean
    Participant

     

    October 23rd Meditation: “With God every day (EGW)”.

    Christ was tempted like us

    For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses; on the contrary, he has been tempted like us in all things, without sin. (Hebrews 4:15)

    The coming of Christ into our world was a great event, not only for this world, but for all the worlds of the universe belonging to God. Jesus came to take charge of our own nature, to be tempted in every way as we are, and to leave us an example of flawless character and perfect purity. Having been tempted in all things as we are, He therefore knows how to sympathize with us. He knows how to show compassion to children and young people, he knows how to assist them, for he too was a child and he understands all the trials and temptations facing youth. Christ’s eyes are illuminated by this love that led him to leave the heavenly courts and come to this earth to die in the place of the sinner. …] He was full of compassion and love not only for those who sought to love and obey him but also for those who were evil and guilty. Jesus has not changed; he is the same yesterday, today and forever and he still feels love and compassion for the lost whom he tries to draw to himself in order to give them his divine help. He knows that a demonic power fights in every soul and strives to seize it; but He has come to destroy the power of Satan and to set the prisoners free ; ; The character of the heavenly Father was revealed in Christ. The children who looked at His face saw purity and goodness shining in His eyes. Meekness, benignity, and love were combined with the feeling of His power. But in spite of each of his words, gestures, and facial expressions that revealed his divine authority, humility characterized his conduct and his bearing. The coming of Christ here on earth had only one goal: to save lost souls.

    Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

    #867062
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer where have we ever said God Has not placed Jesus above all thing, except himself. You take snips of what we write and make them out to mean things we are not even hinting at. You are getting very corrupt in you thinking,  if your going to quote us or say we are saying something , then please have the decency to post it all, not something out of context, as you do our scriptures.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

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