John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,201 through 21,220 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866951
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Mike, Let’s go about this a different way:

    The bible uses the term – “The Word” – in many places. Please list
    for me all the different meanings you believe this phrase to mean…

    1 ?
    2 ?
    3 ?
    4 ?
    5 ect…

    please list them all,
    so we can explore this further.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #866952
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Further EdJ, God reveals things in their time. Romans 16:25:

    Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

    #866961
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj…..Jodi and I, are not fence walkers, we both know exactly what we are saying and have produced countless scriptures over and over to back up exactly what we are saying.  Your lack of undstanding dosen’t make us fence walkers. Show us where any of those scripture we posted makes us appear as a “fence walker”.  We both know exactly where we are saying.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #866962
    Berean
    Participant

    Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.(Proverbes 26:12)

    #866963
    Jodi
    Participant

    Proclaimer:

    The Word became flesh.

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    His name is the Word of God.

    And yes, he is the seed of David.

    True understanding of all this sees no contradiction.

    A person who pits one scripture against another is not seeing the truth because both were inspired by the almighty God.

    Jodi:

    The Word became flesh – Yes, God had said that He would rest His Spirit upon the son of Jesse, an anointing, and send this anointed one out into the world to be a savior. The Messiah came in the flesh EXACTLY according to THE WORD given long ago.  

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh – Yes, Jesus who left the river Jordan being filled with the Spirit was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, he then came out of the wilderness and CAME into Galilee, where fame began to spread of him as he began to speak God’s word and perform signs and miracles. People wondered who this man of flesh was, some knew he was the PROMISED Messiah, the promised king, the promised savior, the promised son of David to whom God had promised to be a Father to. 

    His name is the Word of God his name is Jesus “YHVH is salvation” God’s word spoken throughout the bible, that He would save us and do so through one man. Another name we are also given said to be written, which is called the word of God, is “King of kings and Lord of lords”. We know from THE WORD of God spoken by both David and Isaiah, that David’s son would be a King of kings and a Lord of lords, having dominion overall that YHVH had made solely by Himself. 

    And yes, he is the seed of David– Absolutely, according to Matthew 1 and Romans 1 we are told that the GENESIS and the COMING INTO EXISTENCE of Jesus is according to being of David’s seed. Likewise we are told in Acts 13 that of David’s seed ACCORDING TO A PROMISE (THE WORD of God) God raised unto Israel a savior, Jesus. 

    True understanding of all this sees no contradiction- yes when you apply scripture with scripture there are no contradictions. John 1 speaks to God’s WORD that He had declared from the beginning which then He revealed to the prophets. There are so many prophecies that are to be directly applied to John 1.

    A person who pits one scripture against another is not seeing the truth because both were inspired by the almighty God. -yes, all the word of God is true and when you apply it all together it gives us a clear message. God wanted us to know that all THE WORD from Him that He revealed to the prophets was with Him from the beginning. He had declared the END from the beginning

    #866964
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Ed J,

    YOU:

    Gene and Jodi are playing semantics.

    You say he is, and I say he isn’t; period!
    But Gene and Jodi want it both ways.

    He isn’t the word of God but his name is called the word of God ???

    Fence walkers

    ME:

    As I have been saying, I do not believe that Jesus was ever given the name “The Word of God”. The names that he has been given, those names are the word of God. 

    For example,

    His name, JESUS, it’s very meaning is to us God’s word spoken throughout the bible, “YVHV is salvation”.

    His name that is written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, is also God’s spoken word. 

     

    #866965
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    The WORD below given by Isaiah is a promise that a man of FLESH will receive YHVH’s Spirit, it’s an ANOINTING, where then this anointed man of flesh is promised to be SENT. 

    Our Messiah, according to The WORD, was promised to come in the flesh. 

    The WORD was that a man would be full of grace and truth.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

    The “me” above is Jesus of Nazareth who had left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit, filled with grace and truth. 

    Moreover, concerning this anointing of a man of flesh we are told even more, 

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles….5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    So here we have THE WORD spoken to us as fulfilled, 

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    The WORD of Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61 was made true EXACTLY how it was declared, a man of flesh was anointed with the Spirit filled with grace and truth and sent out into the world where the people beheld his glory. 

    That glory, him being filled with the Spirit not by measure, the only one, as God said He would not give it to any other, is Jesus being declared as God’s only begotten of the Father. Jesus was the only mortal man raised up from among his brethren to be begotten of God’s Spirit not by measure. 

     

    #866966
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    There are no contradictions, everything is to be applied together!

    John 7:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Jesus is the man who was made into God’s only begotten Son at the river Jordan. He is the man according to The WORD whom God made to be for a light, it was a calling to righteousness where he would deliver captives and build God’s city. The son of Jesse was made into our Maker’s Son.  

    Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    JESUS DID NOT pre-exist and create heaven and earth, that is a direct LIE against scripture. YHVH made all things himself, and He did so through the ONE MAN who would bring forth YHVH’s purpose in creating all things in the first place, eternal life. Because this one man brings forth eternal life, YHVH held all things in him, in him all things consisted, so nothing would have been made that was made without this one man. This one man was promised to receive dominion over all that YHVH alone had made, so when YHVH was making all things by Himself He was doing so FOR this man to inherit it, and be a King of kings and a Lord of lords overall. 

     

    #866967
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Jodi

    You

    “JESUS DID NOT pre-exist and create heaven and earth, that is a direct LIE against scripture. YHVH made all things himself, and He did so through the ONE MAN who would bring forth YHVH’s purpose in creating all things in the first place, eternal life. Because this one man brings forth eternal life, YHVH held all things in him, in him all things consisted, so nothing would have been made that was made without this one man. This one man was promised to receive dominion over all that YHVH alone had made, so when YHVH was making all things by Himself He was doing so FOR this man to inherit it, and be a King of kings and a Lord of lords overall. ”

    Me

    Your comments are inspired by the devil, the prince of lies.
    And you think you’re wise!

    Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.(Proverbes 26:12)

     

    #866968
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Edj…..Jodi and I, are not fence walkers, we both know exactly what we are saying and have produced countless scriptures over and over to back up exactly what we are saying.

    Even demons believe

    Bull. All you do is quote Jesus humanity which no one here disagrees with. But you do not accept the full counsel of scripture. You take a snapshot of him coming in the flesh and with human reasoning say that he was created with no prior history and is still a man (adam). You try to hide the fact that he was with God in the beginning. The eternal life with the Father who came from heaven, came in flesh, died, rose again, and is in the glory he had with the Father. Even demons were more truthful Gene.

    Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Messiah…

    He is the Word of Life

    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.…

    He was sent to us

    For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    The firstborn of all creation and all things created through him

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    He is back from whence he came

    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Here is the timeline

    I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

    Boom!

    You either hear the voice of the shepherd or you do not. Scripture is either the truth or it isn’t. Simple. Let your yes be yes and no be no. Why speak with forked tongue?

    #866969
    carmel
    Participant

    HI Gene,

    YOU: Carmel. …..Man you are so far out there in delusion, you make anything out of scriptures you want to m even though it is not stated like that , nor even intended to be taken that way.  No one can take what you are saying seriously Carmel, 

    Gene, There was a fox and he spotted a cluster of grapes.

    He jumped, and jumped, and jumped….FOR NO USE and after he became breathless he said,

    AFTER ALL, THAT CLUSTER ISN’T GOOD TO EAT IT IS STILL SOUR.

    YOU: No one can take what you are saying seriously Carmel,

    WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

    Gene, your words prove that you are still on MILK, and unless you contradict me using scriptures, OF WHICH YOU YOURSELF CONFIRMED THAT I PRODUCED,

    something which you never do unless it is your own CORRUPTION,

    MY STANDS.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866972
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: JESUS DID NOT pre-exist and create heaven and earth, that is a direct LIE against scripture.

     

    Scriptures:

    Genesis 18:1 And the Lord appeared to him

    in the vale of Mambre as he was sitting at the door of his tent, in the very heat of the day. 2And when he had lifted up his eyes, there appeared to him three men standing near him: and as soon as he saw them he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and adored down to the ground. 3And he said:

    Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight,

    pass not away from thy servant:

     

    Galatians 4:14 You despised not, nor rejected: but received me as

    an angel of God,

    even as Christ Jesus.

     

    Jude 1:5 I will therefore admonish you, though ye once knew all things,

    that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,

    did afterwards destroy them that believed not: 

    Isaiah 48: I, even I have spoken and

    called him: (????)

    I have brought him,(???)

    and his way is made

    prosperous.(???)

    16Come ye near unto me, and hear this:

    I have not spoken in secret

    from the beginning:

    from the time

    before it was done,(???)

    I was there,

    and now the Lord God

    hath sent me,(???)

    and his spirit.(???)

    Hebrews1:2In these days hath spoken to us by his Son,

    whom he hath appointed heir of all things,

    by whom also he made the world. 

    8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    9Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    10And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, didst found the earth: and the works of thy hands are the heavens.

    11They shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment.

    12And as a vesture shalt thou change them,

    and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame, and thy years shall not fail.

    John1:15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke:

    He that shall come after me,

    is preferred before me: because he was before me. 

    18No man hath seen God at any time:

    the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father,

    he hath declared him.

     

    John 6:62 If then you shall see

    the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

    John 8:And he said to them: You are from beneath,

    I am from above.

    You are of this world,

    I am not of this world.

    24Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that

    I am he,

    you shall die in your sin. 25They said therefore to him:

    Who art thou? Jesus said to them:

    The beginning,

    who also speak unto you. 

    John17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself,

    with the glory which I had,

    before the world was, with thee.

     

    Jodi, This time I left it for you to comment on the above scriptures which

     

    PROVE JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE AND CREATOR

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #866974
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Continuously you do not discuss our POINT that goes beyond Jesus being a man whom was anointed and sent. 

    If you just look at the END that YHVH had declared from the beginning. What is it? It’s a man, a human, sitting on his father David’s throne according to the flesh, where he is a Son of God according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead, which we read he had received that Spirit according to a promise when he rose from the dead. 

    YHVH made all things with the purpose of eternal life, which He declared one man would bring, a man who could do nothing of himself, it was all because of the Spirit of YHVH that came upon the son of David we are saved.

    If one man brings forth His purpose for His creation, than all things consist in him. If one man receives dominion over the works that YHVH had made, than all things were made by reason of and FOR him. 

     

    #866976
    Berean
    Participant

    Who came to help Daniel’s friends when they were thrown into the fiery furnace by the servants of King Nebuchadnezzar?

    I BELEIVE THAT IT IS THE SON OF GOD…..

    ANOTHER PROOF OF THE PRE EXISTENCE OF THE SON OF GOD

    Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellers, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
    [25] He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.(DANIEL 3)

    Jesus himself stood beside them in the terrible furnace, and by the glory of his presence the arrogant king of Babylon was convinced that he could only be the Son of God. The light from heaven had radiated from Daniel and his companions, until all their fellows understood the faith which ennobled their lives and embellished their character (RH 1/2/1881).

     

    #866977
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    Scripture does not teach that Jesus went back to a former being, At ALL.

    Scripture teaches that Jesus was raised from the dead as YHVH’s fulfilled WORD from before time began, a HUMAN BEING HAVING ETERNAL LIFE.

    As Jesus appeared to many they were a witness to the WORD OF LIFE made true in him.

    That WORD wasn’t just for Jesus, seeing him gave them hope for their own resurrection into GLORY, into power, made incorruptible. 

    #866978
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    God’s angels appear as men on earth and they are the Sons of God. Daniel 3 is not any sort of proof that Jesus pre-existed.

    #866979
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Daniel 3 :

    and the form of the fourth is like THE SON OF GOD .(DANIEL 3)

    #866980
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    The Word from the beginning, 

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 

    The Word from the beginning was made true in Jesus,

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    Jesus, ANOINTED at the river Jordan, where he left the river having been filled with the Spirit, had God holding his hand and keeping him for to fulfill God’s covenant and be for a light. THIS JESUS, the son of Jesse anointed as according to The Word of God made true in the flesh, was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world, where he would be raised from the dead upon shedding his blood and be given GLORY. 

    1 Peter 1:18 For as much as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    FROM THE BEGINNING, Jesus was promised glory, and to us it would be for our own hope for that glory, whereby seeing Jesus in that glory it would give us faith in God. 

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    Recall, Jesus was ANOINTED AND SENT having God’s Spirit upon him in order TO preach God’s word, DO God’s work. 

    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with (para-FROM) thee before the world was. 

    Now apply this to the below verse,

    1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    JESUS asked for the very glory that was from God from the beginning that he had been FOREORDAINED to receive. Jesus was not ignorant to the glory he was foreordained from the beginning to receive.

    The people witnessed that glory when they saw and handled Jesus after he rose from the dead, which gave them faith in God as it had been promised to be their own glory. They likewise knew that Jesus was given the honor to give that eternal life to his own fellow brethren.

    So many of you ignore God’s word and then treat Jesus like he was ignorant of it. 

    #866981
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar said, “Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king’s command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God.

    #866982
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Can you DEFEND your doctrine or not? I give you scripture that speaks against it, and you just ignore it. Don’t you realize that you have zero credibility, if you cannot speak to ALL scriptures?

    You have not responded as I am aware, that you are told directly from scripture, that there was NO COMING of a savior UNTIL AFTER John preached of baptism. But that is not what you say.

    Likewise, you say that the savior had to be God coming to earth, but below the promise from our One True God, was David’s son being raised up to be a savior. 

    23-24 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus; when John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    Likewise read and explain this passage please, 

    2 Peter 1: 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Berean, at the river Jordan Jesus became the only mortal man to have been begotten of God’s Spirit without measure filled with grace and truth, making him God’s only begotten son, receiving honor and glory.  It is at that moment that the Spirit came to abode upon him that God declares this Jesus as His beloved Son.

    This was the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, for upon having been begotten of the Spirit, an ANOINTING, he was SENT out into the world for to fulfill God’s covenant and be our savior. 

    All scripture that speaks to the Son of God being SENT, speak to Jesus’ own declaration as to WHEN he was SENT. 

    In John 3 you are told that he whom God sent speaks the word of God, for God gave him the Spirit not by measure. God SENT Jesus of Nazareth upon anointing him of the Spirit for the purpose TO PREACH and set us at liberty. 

     

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