John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,121 through 21,140 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866829
    Berean
    Participant

    Is this you too Berean?

     

    No  I am Berean

    When I Say THAT Jésus IS God , I mean He IS OF the SAME nature of the Father

    And the Word was God

    Not THE God

    God in infinity but not in PERSONALITY

    God the Father IS THE ONLY TRUE  GOD

    BLESS BE HIS NAME
    AMEN

     

     

    #866830
    nayasnana
    Participant

    The first thing I want to note is, (2 Peter 1:20) “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.”
    A triple deity (sometimes referred to as threefold, tripled, triplicate, tripartite, triune or triadic, or as a trinity) is three deities that are worshipped as one. Such deities are common throughout world mythology; the number three has a long history of mythical associations.

    The Doctrine of the Trinity did not exist until 325 A.D. The Old Testament is the original Hebrew Bible, the sacred scriptures of the Jewish faith, written at different times between about 1200 and 165 BC. The New Testament books were written by Christians in the first century AD.
    “It is an unquestionable historical fact that the doctrine of the Trinity is a false doctrine foisted into
    the Church during the third and fourth centuries; which finally triumphed by the aid of persecuting emperors.
    For many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God.
    To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. . . .
    Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. Jesus’ establishment as ‘the Son of God’ was officially proposed
    and voted on by the Council of Nicaea. . . . [It was] a relatively close vote at that. . . . By officially endorsing Jesus as God, Constantine turned Jesus into a deity who existed beyond the scope of the human world, an entity whose power was unchallengeable.
    After Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades.
    Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula. This council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus. The historical record shows that, just as Jesus and the New Testament writers foretold, various heretical ideas and teachers rose up from within the early Church and infiltrated it from without. Christ Himself warned His followers: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name . . . and will deceive many” (Matthew 24:4-5) By the second century, faithful members of the Church, Christ’s “little flock” (Luke 12:32), had largely been scattered by waves of deadly persecution. They held firmly to the biblical truth about Jesus Christ and God the Father, though they were persecuted by the Roman authorities as well as those who professed Christianity but were in reality teaching “another Jesus” and a “different gospel” (2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9). This was the setting in which the doctrine of the Trinity emerged. In those early decades after Jesus Christ’s ministry, death and resurrection, and spanning the next few centuries, various ideas sprang up as to His exact nature. But why do so many follow after the belief of the Trinity? The answer is simple. They do not check it for themselves with what the Bible teaches. Consider Jesus Christ’s words:
    Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39
    So it is to the Bible we must turn, and when we do, we do not find any evidence to suggest that God is made up of three beings. Be Blessed

     

    #866831
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    When I Say THAT Jésus IS God , I mean He IS OF the SAME nature of the Father

    Yes this is what I thought and I am with you regarding that.

    It’s tough because when we use a capital letter it is the same as a word in Greek that is preceded by the definite article. So when we say ‘God’ it basically means ”the God’. But John 1:1-3 doesn’t have the definite article before the last mention of ‘theos’. And it seems wrong to also say ‘god’ which is how false gods is written. Yes ‘divine’ is what many believe it is saying. Even many Trinitarian scholars acknowledge that too.

    #866832
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @nayasnanayahoo-com

    Thanks for the history lesson. Yes the emergence and establishment of the Trinity Doctrine is fickle indeed. It is wrought with the works of men as history attests.

    I do not think that there are die-hard Trinitarians debating here right now though, but your post serves as a good reminder for those that are reading this discussion.

    #866833
    nayasnana
    Participant

    He (Jesus) is the “word” (God’s messenger.) I know Christ was with God from the beginning and I am researching this now. In the Scriptures, the meaning of the term “beginning” depends on the context. Here the Greek word ar·kheʹ cannot refer to “the beginning” of God the Creator, for he is eternal, having no beginning. (Ps 90:2) It must, therefore, refer to the time when God began creating. God’s first creation was termed the Word, a heavenly designation of the one who became Jesus. (Joh 1:14-17) So Jesus is the only one who can rightly be called “the firstborn of all creation.” (Col 1:15) He was “the beginning of the creation by God” (Re 3:14), so he existed before other spirit creatures and the physical universe were created. In fact, by means of Jesus, “all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth.”​—(Col 1:16); The very contrast with the prophets (who in the lower sense were amongst God’s sons) would be sufficient to prove this, but the words which follow, and the whole contents of this chapter, are designed to show the supreme dignity of Him who is God’s latest Representative on earth. The prophet’s commission extended no farther than the special message of his words and life; “a Son” spoke with His Father’s authority, with complete knowledge of His will and purpose. It is impossible to read these first lines (in which the whole argument of the Epistle is enfolded) without recalling the prologue of the fourth Gospel. The name “Word” is not mentioned here, and the highest level of John’s teaching is not reached; but the idea which “the Word” expresses, and the thought of the Only Begotten as declaring and interpreting the Father (John 1:18; also John 14:10; John 14:24) are present throughout.

    In ( Colossians 1:15) no man hath seen God corporeally with the eyes of his body, though intellectually with the eyes of the understanding, when enlightened. Not in his essence and nature, which is infinite and incomprehensible, but in Jesus’ works of creation, providence, and grace; in and through Christ, in whom He gives the light of the knowledge of the glory of His person and perfections; But the Father is said to be invisible, because He did not appear to Old Testament saints and His voice was never heard, so His shape was never seen; He never assumed any visible form; but whenever any voice was heard, or shape seen, it was the Son of God that appeared, who is here said to be his “image”, and that, as he is the Son of God; in which sense he is the natural, essential, and eternal image of his Father, the eternal one. He (Jesus) is perfect and complete. It includes sameness of nature and perfections but separate “entities.”

    In (Revelation 3:14) Laodicea was the last and worst of the seven churches of Asia. Here our Lord Jesus styles himself, The Amen;(so be it) one steady and unchangeable in all his purposes and promises. Christ expects men should be in earnest. How many professors of gospel doctrine are neither hot nor cold; except they are indifferent in needful matters, and hot and fiery in disputes about things of lesser importance. A severe punishment is threatened. They would give a false opinion of Christianity, as if it were an unholy religion while others would conclude it could give no real satisfaction, otherwise its professors would not have been heartless in it, or so ready to seek pleasure or happiness from the world. One cause of this indifference and inconsistency in religion is, self-conceit and self-delusion. What a difference between what they thought of themselves and what Christ thought of them. How careful should we be not to cheat our owns souls! The faithful and true witness, Jesus Christ.  He is a witness for God and His truth, and Jesus can approve of nothing which the God of truth would not approve. He is arrayed in a vesture dipped in his own blood, by which he purchased his power as Mediator; and in the blood of his enemies, over whom he always prevails. His name is The Word of God; a name none fully knows but himself; only this we know, that this Word was God “manifest” (not incarnated) in the flesh; but his perfections cannot be fully understood by any creature. Although an incarnation is a type of manifestation, there is, however, a significant difference that exists between the two that must be understood. Many things can be considered the manifestation of something or someone. We are the manifestation of Christ, who was the manifestation of God. We who follow Christ are likewise the manifestation of God yet we are not the complete “physical substance” of God literally but rather God is made known  (manifest) through us.

    BTW ( I love a challenge)

     

     

     

    #866834
    nayasnana
    Participant

    Gotcha. I understood you to be saying that Jesus was God. And you’re correct, He is of the same nature and essence but, Jesus is the Son of God. Two different persons. Be blessed

    #866835
    nayasnana
    Participant

    I am always amazed at those who believe at all cost that a trinity is scriptural. Even when you show proof that Jesus and God were claimed to be one decades before the Holy Spirit was added to the trinity.

    #866838
    Ed J
    Participant

    The logos in John 1:1 cannot be Jesus.

    Hi Nayasnana,

    Quite refreshment to have someone else come along,
    to help explain this simple truth to others here!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #866839
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Nayasana,

    WELLCOME!

    Read Isaiah 48:15 I, even I have spoken and called him: (: MY WORD”)I have brought him,(BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD) and his way is made

    PROSPEROUS (A CLEAR REFERENCE TO JESUS ASA SPIRIT: “THE WORD”)

    16Come ye near unto me,

    and hear this:

    I have not spoken in secret from

    the beginning:

    from the time before it was done, (THE BEGINNING)

    I was there,(JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE)

    and now the Lord God

    hath sent me, (“THE WORD”IN JESUS’ FLESH) 

    and his spirit. (THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’SOUL)

    BOTH GLORIFIED INTO ONE SUBSTANCE IN

    JESUS CHRIST:

    JOHN13;31,32

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #866840
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    He (Jesus) is the “word” (God’s messenger.) I know Christ was with God from the beginning and I am researching this now. In the Scriptures, the meaning of the term “beginning” depends on the context. Here the Greek word ar·kheʹ cannot refer to “the beginning” of God the Creator, for he is eternal, having no beginning. (Ps 90:2) It must, therefore, refer to the time when God began creating. God’s first creation was termed the Word, a heavenly designation of the one who became Jesus. (Joh 1:14-17) So Jesus is the only one who can rightly be called “the firstborn of all creation.” (Col 1:15) He was “the beginning of the creation by God” (Re 3:14), so he existed before other spirit creatures and the physical universe were created. In fact, by means of Jesus, “all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth.”​—(Col 1:16); The very contrast with the prophets (who in the lower sense were amongst God’s sons) would be sufficient to prove this, but the words which follow, and the whole contents of this chapter, are designed to show the supreme dignity of Him who is God’s latest Representative on earth. The prophet’s commission extended no farther than the special message of his words and life; “a Son” spoke with His Father’s authority, with complete knowledge of His will and purpose. It is impossible to read these first lines (in which the whole argument of the Epistle is enfolded) without recalling the prologue of the fourth Gospel. The name “Word” is not mentioned here, and the highest level of John’s teaching is not reached; but the idea which “the Word” expresses, and the thought of the Only Begotten as declaring and interpreting the Father (John 1:18; also John 14:10; John 14:24) are present throughout.

    Great post. But I’m not aligned with Jesus Christ not being the Word of God part. Yes obviously the logos is an attribute of God just as truth and love is. But Jesus Christ said he was the Truth and the Life. He is a person that personifies these Godly attributes. Same can be said about the logos.

    We know that Jesus is his name and so he is Jesus. He is also named, “The Word of God”, so why is he Jesus but not the Word of God?

    There are currently two members here who will not answer this most simplest of questions. They are not honest people IMO because they dodge questions regarding their teachings. They seem only interested in being right and do not seem to put truth above themselves. Hopefully you can give me an answer here.

    Why is he NOT the Word of God if that is his name, but is Jesus because that is also his name?

    Here is how Tatian (165 A.D) put it centuries before Nicea.

    And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world…

    For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.

    Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 175 A.D)

    And He is without beginning, since He is unbegotten; and He is unchangeable, because He is immortal. And he is called God… He is Lord, because He rules over the universe, Father, because He is before all things, …

    God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by him He made all things. 

     

     

     

    #866842
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant


    Proclaimer…..the “only” way Jesus himself could be the “word” of God “himself” is if he were God, himself. JESUS IS NOT “NAMED” the Word,  scripture does not say that, It says he is “called” the word of God, it does not say he “IS” the word of God.

    look up the meaning of the word “called” ,  it shows it as a “sur-name” ,  not to mention Jesus himself said this, 

    John 12:48…..He that rejects me and recieve not my words has one that judges him: the words that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49,  For I have not spoken of (from) “MYSELF”; but the Father which sent me, “He” gave me commandment, what I should     “say”, and what I should “speak”. 

     

    Does that sound like Jesus was saying he “himself” was God’s word? , not to me , that sounds like The man Jesus was telling us exactly what God the Father was telling him to say to us.  The sur-name “the word” is because he was telling us God the Fathers word exactly as the Father was telling him to tell us.  It was God the Fathers words , not “his own” words. 

    Jesus bore testified to us God the Fathers words, which are the words of life, he is as one who testifies to us the words of God, not that he himself is the word of God.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #866843
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…… Here is your answer to your question you ask me.

    Isa 44:6-7…… Thus says the LORD the King of Israel,  and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first and the last; and besides me there is “NO”  God.

    VERSE 7……Fear you not, neither be afraid; have not I told you from that time and have declared it?, you are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is “NO” God; I know “NOT” ANY. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

    #866844
    nayasnana
    Participant

    Some of my “research” was done a few years back so, wording of my post today may be a little “iffy.” I make every attempt to quote exactly from the Bible when giving my thoughts/opinions. I pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit before posting anything. I do not in any way want to “force” anyone to believe what I post. I share what I have found and what I believe it means to give others the courage and incentive to really dig into God’s word and find truths. Be Blessed

    #866845
    nayasnana
    Participant

    After God asks, “Who among them [your idols] has declared these things?” He then states, “The Lord loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans…. I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.” But who is “him”? The first part of this as “The Lord’s chosen ally [because allies are elsewhere referred to as “lovers” in Scripture] will carry out his purpose against Babylon.” So, it is likely a reference, once again, to Cyrus on one level. But, as already explained, Cyrus was a forerunner of the ultimate Messiah, Jesus Christ, who will overthrow end-time Babylon at His second coming. And this is the primary reference here. In verse 16, the pronoun changes from Him to “Me”—showing Jesus directly speaking as having been sent by the Father through the Holy Spirit.

    As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once.” ( John 13:31-32) John has hinted throughout his gospel that Jesus would redefine glory. The word for exalt or glorify actually means to lift up on high. For Jesus, his glory will involve his being lifted up on high on the cross out of love for us and in obedience to the Father. Through his death, burial and resurrection, Jesus will bring the Father glory by fulfilling the Father’s plan to bring us out of our bondage to sin and death.

     

    #866846
    nayasnana
    Participant

    In reference to (Tatian 165 A.D) Most Protestants will claim that the historic Christian faith can be determined from the Bible, but a simple comparison of the multitude of doctrines taught by Protestants makes it clear this is not true. The result of this is that early church history is left far too often to the revisionist history of the Roman Catholics. The word is in desperate need of a testimony like that of the apostles and their churches.

    Fortunately, many writings have been left to us from all periods of church, even the earliest and it’s not difficult to determine what was important to the churches the apostles started. We see doctrines introduced at later periods into the teaching of the churches and we can see that those doctrines are not apostolic.

    After the reign of Constantine and the first general council of the church at Nicea, two very significant events occurred.

    One, the churches now had an official means to decree doctrine. Doctrines that were universal in the church before that time were very likely to have come from a common source, the apostles, because there was no hierarchy to establish new doctrines universally.

    Two, most of the citizens of the Roman empire became Christians, making it almost impossible after Nicea to find anything resembling the churches before Nicea. No longer were the churches gatherings of those who had chosen the Christian faith against what was accepted in society. Now, the churches consisted mostly of those who were just doing what everyone else was doing. (This is evidenced by the awful behavior of the churches and their leaders after Nicea)

    Jesus said that prophets were to be judged by their fruit. In early church history it is possible not just to see the apostolic or non-apostolic origin of doctrines, it’s also possible to see the fruit of new doctrines as they arrived on the scene.

    The starting-point of Tatian’s theology is a strict monotheism, which becomes the source of the moral life. Originally the human soul possessed faith in one God, but lost it with the fall. In consequence, humanity sank under the rule of demons into the abominable error of polytheism. By monotheistic faith, the soul is delivered from the material world and from demonic rule and is united with God. God is spirit (pneuma), but not the physical or stoical pneuma; he was alone before the creation, but he had within himself the whole creation.

    The means of creation was the dynamis logike (“power expressed in words”). At first there proceeded from God the Logos who, generated in the beginning, was to produce the world by creating matter from which the whole of creation sprang. ( I’m going to attempt more reseach on this since this “theology” of Tatian is conveying that Jesus was “created” in the heavens.) I’ve also began some research on the belief that Jesus was/is the Archangel Michael. It will take me a minute but, I’ll get back with you as soon as find something worth sharing. Pray for the Holy Spirit to lead me in this research. Be blessed

     

     

    #866847
    Ed J
    Participant

    It says he is “called” the word of God

    Where does it say that Gene?
    Because I never seen it ???

    #866849
    carmel
    Participant

    Carmel…… Here is your answer to your question you ask me.

    Isa 44:6-7…… Thus says the LORD the King of Israel,  and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first and the last; and besides me there is “NO”  God.

    VERSE 7……Fear you not, neither be afraid; have not I told you from that time and have declared it?, you are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is “NO” God; I know “NOT” ANY. 

    Hi Gene,

    READ AGAIN MY QUESTION IN PLAIN SIMPLE ENGLISH:

     

    GENE SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE WHERE

    GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF SAYS:

     

    I AM THE ONLY

    TRUE

    GOD!

    DID YOU UNDERSTAND THE ABOVE Gene?

    HERE IT IS AGAIN:

     

    GENE SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE WHERE

    GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF SAYS:

     

    I AM THE ONLY

    TRUE

    GOD!

    Gene

    TRUE GOD 

    NOT JUST THE ONLY GOD!

    SATAN ALSO CONSIDERED HIMSELF GOD ON EARTH.

    THE FATHER WAS NOT ACCEPTED AS 

    THE ONLY GOD ON EARTH!

    NEVER MIND

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD ON EARTH.

    THE FACT THAT GOD SHOUTED SO IN ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES.

    BEFORE JESUS PROCLAIMED SO!

     

    NOW ANSWER THIS ONE GENE,

    WHY THE FATHER ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE ONLY SAID THAT

    HE IS THE ONLY GOD

    AND

    HE NEVER SAID

    HIMSELF

    THAT

    HE IS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD ON EARTH?

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866850
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..the “only” way Jesus himself could be the “word” of God “himself” is if he were God, himself. JESUS IS NOT “NAMED” the Word, scripture does not say that, It says he is “called” the word of God, it does not say he “IS” the word of God.

    A lot in your post is not true. His name is The Word of God as has already been pointed out to you multiple times. There seems to be something blinding you from this.

    And he is not called ‘the God’, but is referenced in nature only. He is after all called the only begotten of the Father and first born of all creation. From what else then was he derived?

    If he wasn’t the first to be with God then who was this very special person?

    Where are your answers?

    #866851
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    EDJ…..REV 19:13,  …..and he was clothed  with a vesture, dipped in blood: and his name is ““CALLED” , “The word of God”.  

    Now look up the words given there for “called”  it will tell you it is a “sur-name” ,  or Title,  like when Jesus said to Simon Bar-jona,  you shall be “called” Peter , that word means a Stone or Rock,  was Peter a stone or rock, no he was not , but that name was an “atribute” afforded him, because of some atribute he posessed, the same thing applied to James and John, he called them the “Son’s of Thunder”,  did that make them really sons of THUNDER, what ever that would be?, NO IT WOULD NOT. 

    JESUS is afforded the “TITLE” ,  the word of God,  because he told us God the Fathers words, “exactly”,  as the Father commanded him to. The same thing applies to the Prophets God sent before, Jesus was ever born,  just as  Heb 1:1 says,

    God, who at Sunday times and in different manners spake in times past unto the fathers by (through)  the prophets, has in theses last days spoken unto us by (through) a Son, who he appointed heir of all things,  by (for the purpose of) whom also he (God) made the worlds;  

    Now ask yourself who was the one speaking, was it the prophets, or the Son?, NO it was God the Father who was speaking,  not Jesus or the prophets, get the glory of the Fathers words?, “only God the Father does”. No matter who he (God) speaks through, it’s still him (God), who is the one speaking those words through them. GET IT? 

    God is Spirit and can speak directly through a persons mouth, by his Spirit being in that  person,  it was not Jesus who said destory this temple and in three days I, (God the Father),   shall raise it up. , that was God the FATHER SPEAKING DIRECTLY THROUGH THE HUMAN JESUS’ MOUTH. 

    God and his words are one and the same being, no matter who he choses to speak through, it’s still God himself speaking, his own words. Not the words of the messenger, who he has sent.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

     

    #866852
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel. ……if God himself said there is “no other God” but him, then common sense should tell you he is saying he is also the “only” true” God,  if  you don’t believe God himself, then believe Jesus,  when he said  , “that they might know “YOU” THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD. 

    I have given you both God the Father,  and Jesus own words, you either believe them or not it’s up to you.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………..gene

     

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