John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,101 through 21,120 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #866803
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Proclaimer seems to have no actual response to my response.  He can’t bring himself to acknowledge that his statement I cannot possible say yes or no to because I don’t agree with the statement.

    He gave a statement and then asked a question BASED on the statement, where he assumed I agreed with the statement, when I in fact don’t. If the question is based on the statement that I think is false, I can’t very well answer the question now can I? This should be simple reasoning.

    We all know his point was most likely an attempt at proving foolish thinking on my part, and it just backfired. 

    He most likely assumed my answer would be yes, that I agree that the Messiah is Jesus and that he is not The Word of God.

    His purpose it seems was to try and show how absurd it would be for me to say that the Messiah has the name “Jesus”, so the Messiah is therefore Jesus, and though the Messiah has the name “The Word of God”, he is not “The Word of God”.

    If I said such that would be indeed very foolish, but I say no such thing. I had made it clear in my initial post that I do not believe that our Messiah was ever given the name “The Word of God”. I made it clear that my stance is that his own given name JESUS is unto us God’s word, for his name means, YHVH is salvation, which is the word of God!!!!

    Likewise it is TRUE that as Jesus became the promised anointed one sent out into the world to deliver captives, he became the word of God made true in him, made true in a man of flesh.  

    #866804
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi
    You and Gene despised the TRUE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD … THE ONE WHO COMES FROM HEAVEN SENT FROM THE FATHER
    HOW SAD I FEEL TO READ YOUR HEADED POSTS
    YOU TAKE FROM THE BIBLE ONLY
    WHAT YOUR FALSE VISION TELLS YOU. IT IS NOT THE GOD YOU SAY YOU BELIEVE THAT GUIDES YOU …

    THE PRE-EXISTENCE AND THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST IS WELL PRESENT IN THE BIBLE …. BUT YOU IGNORE IT …. WITHOUT KNOWING WHY … YOU IGNORE IT …. YOU DISCARD CHRIST
    WHICH IS STILL WORTHY TO WORSHIP.
    DON’T MAKE ME LONG POSTS TO TELL ME THAT YOU DESPITE THE DIVINITY AND THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF CHRIST
    THIS IS TOTALLY INUTILITY.

    #866805
    Berean
    Participant

    REVELATION 19:13

    And he was clothed with a garment soaked in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Jodi

    Do you believe what revelation 19:13 says

    YES OR NO

    #866806
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……God’s word belongs to God “alone”,  no matter who quotes it, the prophets or the flesh  man Jesus.   AND God said this , “you shall have “No” Other God besides me”.  So the question is , do you truly believe what God the Father said?, or have you made anot her God besides him, have you turned the flesh man Jesus,  into your GOD?   Even though  JESUS SAID,  “that they might know “You” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD, and Jesus,  the anointed one, who you have sent. 

    Jesus said….’“no man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. YOU cannot serve GOD and mammon. 

    Tell me Berean,  do you hate God the Father And love The Man Jesus? , or do you love God the Father , like Jesus did?, and give him “ALL” the Glory like Jesus did?   DO YOU ROB GOD, and pay Jesus, like nearly all Christanity does? 2ths2.  Has Jesus become your “only” true God”.

    Do you see the man Jesus, as our example of how to have a right relationship with his and our God,  Or do you,  worship Jesus as you God?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #866807
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Do you believe what revelation 19:13 says
    YES OR NO

    #866808
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’ and your ‘No’ be ‘No. ’Whatever is more than these is of the evil one.

    In other words people, just be honest. No need to swear or give out essays. Keep it simple. Do not hide the Devil in the details. Be like a child for the kingdom belongs to them.

    This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

    Again, how do people run from the light? They hide. They cover themselves. They hide in caves. They surround their words with legal contracts where there are escape clauses.

    And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Do not harden your heart.

    #866810
    Berean
    Participant

    Good post Proclaimer

    God bless

    #866811
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Are you asking a bunch of rhetorical questions that you are answering for yourself?

    Or

    Is there one specific question you want me to answer.
    And then I will in turn ask you a question?

    I don’t generally respond to your long drawn out speeches,
    because there are generally many point I disagree with.
    I instead look to seek reconciliation on specifics.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #866816
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. ….Just as I expected, you fail to answer my post, as you and others do to Jodi and I  all the time.  Then you complement anyone who comes along and deverts away from what we have quoted from scriptures over and over, with carnel garbage . The question still is do you “truly believe what Jesus said, the words of his,  which I  quoted to you directly from his mouth?  If you do,  then  you,  and anyone else would have no problem understanding the  truth, the truth, which you and others here keep arguing against.

    Can’t you understand Jesus is “called” the word of God,  not because he “IS” himself God’s word, but because he quotes God the Fathers words, to us,  as God speaks  to him, and tells him  what to say, Just as God did the prophets. No difference at all. 

    God the FATHER through his “ANOINTING” Holy Spirit, which was in Jesus,  “SPOKE” to us,  through the mouth of his prophets, and Jesus was also a prophet, just as MOSES said,

    Deu 18:15…..”“the LORD thy God will raise up unto you a “PROPHET” from the midst of you, “OF” or “FROM”,  your brethern, “LIKE UNTO ME”; unto him you shall hearken.”  THAT is another one,  you people do  not TRULY believe, or you would understand Jesus was not alive at the time that was said, and you would understand Jesus was to come into his “only” existence from his “brethern”,  one of the tribes of Israel.  YOU would also understand that Moses was a human being and someone who was to be “LIKE” him, had to be a human being also, or he would not be “LIKE” him, now would he?

    Jesus was a “perfected” human being , perfected by the Holy Spirit of the Living God , that dwelt “in” him, exactly as we also can be perfected by that same Holy Spirit, that perfected the MAN Jesus?

    Satan want everyone to make Jesus different then themselves, because he dosen’t want you to believe your potential is exactly  the same as Jesus. He want you to “SEPERATE YOUSELF FROM HIM”  and he does it by his ministers teaching that Jesus was and is not truly exactly like us, that he was and is different the the rest of humanity.  He wants us to move Jesus away from our exact idenity with him, and he does it through those who teach his “doctrines of Seperation “.  Which creates a different Jesus.  That is exactly what Jesus himself said would happen,   “many” would come in my name saying I am CHRIST, and decieve “MANY”.  yes preaching Jesus but a different Jesus,  that is the Jesus that has been  preached in the apostate churches  for the last 2000 years. It is not something that is going to happen it already has happened a long time ago, question is are you in the “many” decieved, or the “few” not decieved? 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

    #866817
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    I don’t beleive what you preache, because this is not biblical.

    The true Jesus came down from HEAVEN  LIKE JESUS HIMSELF SAID IT.

    38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

    [28] I came forth from the Father, and AM COME INTO THE WORLD : again, I LEAVE THE WORLD, AND GO TO THE FATHER.

    [29] His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
    [30] Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
    [31] Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

    [10] He that descended(the Son of God) is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) EPHESIANS 4:10

     

    #866818
    nayasnana
    Participant

    I’m new on this forum so, let me explain my reason for joining this forum. After being misled for 40 of my 60 years on a trinity, I began a search. I asked my pastor a simple question and he couldn’t answer it. The question was on the “rapture.” For the past 10 years I have been researching and reading everything I can get my hands on regarding the trinity and the rapture among other things. Here are a few things I have found.

    1. Concerning (John 1:1) ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
    2. With all the definitions and ways logos can be translated, how can we decide which meaning of logos to choose for any one verse?  The Greek word logos (traditionally meaning word, thought, principle, or speech) has been used among both philosophers and theologians. How can it be determined what the logos in John 1:1 is? Any occurrence of logos has to be carefully studied in its context in order to get the proper meaning. The logos in John 1:1 cannot be Jesus. Please notice that “Jesus Christ” is not a lexical definition of logos.  (lexical definition relating to the words or vocabulary of a language.) This verse does not say, “In the beginning was Jesus.” “The Word” is not synonymous with Jesus, or even “the Messiah.” The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God’s creative self-expression—His reason, purposes and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God’s self-expression, or communication, of Himself.This has come to pass through His creation (Rom. 1:19 and 20), and especially the heavens (Ps. 19). It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture, the written Word. Most notably and finally, it has come into being through His Son (Heb. 1:1 and 2).

      It is important to note that it was “Christian teachers” who attached the idea of a “divine person” to the word logos. It is certainly true that when the word logos came to be understood as being Jesus Christ, the understanding of John 1:1 was altered substantially.

    3. It is important at this point to understand that the Greek language has a definite article (‘the’), but does not have an indefinite article (‘a’ or ‘an’). Greek does not operate in the same way as English does in regard to the use of the words ‘the’ and ‘a’.
      Special emphasis is shown when the predicate comes first in the sentence. In other words, contrary to the thought that ‘since there is no definite article used here it could belittle the fact of the Word being God’, the fact that the word ‘God’ is used first in the sentence actually shows some emphasis that this Logos (Word) was in fact God in its nature. However, since it does not have the definite article, it does indicate that this Word was not the same ‘person’ as the Father God, but has the same ‘essence’ and ‘nature’.

      It is also necessary to see this statement in context of the rest of John’s writings. When comparing this with other statements about who the person and nature of Jesus Christ really is, it adds to what is already made clear by the Greek grammar. See for instance: John 8:56-59 (cf. Exo. 3:13-14); 10:28-33; 14:6-11; 1 John 5:20; (also John 8:23; 3:12-13; 5:17-18). These verses also indicate that, in John’s understanding and thus the Bible’s clear statements, Jesus Christ is the same essence and nature as God the Father, but distinct in their person-hood.

    4. Consider the following:
      • GOD has NEVER died and cannot die
        (Ps 148:6, Hab 1:12).
      • Jesus HAS died and WAS resurrected by his God
        (Acts 2:32; 3:15).
      • GOD has NEVER changed (Mal 3:6)
      • Jesus DID change FORM: from spirit
        (John 3:31)
      • to human (Luke 2:7; John 1:14)

        to spirit (1 Peter 3:18).

        But has NEVER changed in how he loves and serves his God (John 5:30).

      • GOD has NO other identity, He IS the Sovereign of the Universe (Isa 42:8 plus He states “I am God” another 163 times in the bible)
      • Jesus did have other identities: before he came to earth, he is NOT mentioned “by the name Jesus”.
        He WAS a “prince”
        (Isaiah 9:6, 7),

        then a “crowned prince, named heir”, then a “King” (Re 11:15; 16:14-16)
        of his God’s Kingdom BUT he always was the “Son OF God” (John 3:16).

        He has a beginning as first of all creation

        (Col 1:15; Rev 3:14).
        Later, he has a beginning as a human
        (Matt 1:1, 18-23).
        Later, he has a beginning as the first directly resurrected from death by his God
        (Acts 3:15, 13:30, Ro 10:9).
        Later he has a beginning as the first granted immortality by his God
        (Ro 6:9, Rev 1:17,18).
        God is God Almighty
        Jesus Christ is the Beloved Son OF God Almighty.

      • GOD has no mother, no beginning
        (Ps 90:2; Re 15:3)
      • Jesus has a human mother (Luke 2:7).
      • God is all wise, but Jesus grew in wisdom.
        (Luke 2:52)
        “And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.”
        (Hebrews 5:8 and 9)
        (8) “Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered”
        (9) “and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.”
      • God has limitless knowledge, but Jesus had limited knowledge.
        (Mark 13:32)
        “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
      • God is, and always has been, perfect, but Jesus needed to attain perfection through his suffering.

        (Hebrews 2:10)
        “In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.”

      • Jesus received Holy Spirit at his baptism. If Jesus were God and the Holy Spirit were God, then God would have been anointed with God by God. What purpose would this have served? We know why people are anointed, but what power could God give to Himself? Jesus was given the gift of Holy Spirit, the same gift he now gives to believers today.

        (Mark 1:9-11)
        (9) “At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.”
        (10) “As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.”
        (11) “And a voice came from heaven: “You are my son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

      • Scripture says that God is spirit; yet even after his resurrection Jesus said of himself that he was not a spirit, but flesh and bone.

        (John 4:23)
        “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

        (Luke 24:39) (KJV)
        “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”

      • The Bible says that God is not a man, but Jesus is very plainly called a man many times in Scripture.

        (Numbers 23:19)
        “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind….”

        (John 8:39 and 40)
        (39) “…If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do the things Abraham did.”
        (40) “As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God…”

      • (Matthew 12:30-32:) “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. ( If all three are one, why can blasphemy be forgiven of all EXCEPT the Holy Spirit?)
      • God’s blessings to all and thank you for allowing me to join your forum.
    #866819
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    nayasnana…….Welcome to the form,  you have brought out many good points, and I agree with most of what you have said. You are apsolutely right John 1:1 was talking about God and not Jesus.  Plus many of your other points are also right,  let’s see what the others her have to say about what you have come to understand. To me, it is a sign,  you have been given the spirit of the truth, because of the love for the truth that is “in” you.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

     

     

    #866820
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Nayasnana

    Welcome to the forum

    I mean this:
    It is not because the dogma of the Trinity is not biblical that it excludes the fact that the Son of God is God (divine or of the same nature as the Father)
    Now, from the incarnation the Son is God clothed with our humanity (John 1:14); Colossians 2: 9; Philippians 2: 6,7,8)

    God bless

    #866821
    nayasnana
    Participant

    flesh: Or “a human being.” The Greek word “sarx” is here used in the sense of a physical being, a living being with flesh. When Jesus was born as a human, he was no longer a spirit. He did not merely assume a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. (Ge 18:1-3; 19:1; Jos 5:13-15) Therefore, Jesus could rightly call himself “the Son of man.”​—(Joh 1:51; 3:14;)

    The Word became flesh:(He “became” not “incarnated.”)  Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. Jesus explained the purpose of his becoming flesh when he said: “The bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” (Joh 6:51) In addition, only because Jesus was wholly human could he experience what humans of flesh and blood experience and thus become a sympathetic High Priest. (Heb 4:15) Jesus could not have been human and divine at the same time; the Scriptures say that he “was made a little lower than angels.” (Heb 2:9; Ps 8:4, 5;)

    However, not all agreed that Jesus had come in the flesh. For example, the Gnostics, who believed that knowledge (Greek, gnoʹsis) could be gained in a mystical way, combined Greek philosophy and Oriental mysticism with apostate Christian teachings. They held that all physical matter is evil. For that reason, they taught that Jesus did not come in the flesh but only seemed to have a human body. An early form of Gnosticism was apparently prevalent at the end of the first century C.E., so John may be making a specific point when he writes that “the Word became flesh.” In his letters, John warns against the false teaching that Jesus did not come “in the flesh.”​(1Jo 4:2, 3; 2Jo 7.)

    At (Colossians 2:9) the apostle Paul says that in Christ “all the fullness of the divine quality [form of the·oʹtes] dwells bodily.” Here, again, some translations read “Godhead” or “deity,” which Trinitarians interpret to mean that God personally dwells in Christ. (KJ, NE, RS, NAB) However, Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon defines the·oʹtes in basically the same way it does thei·oʹtes, as meaning “divinity, divine nature.” (P. 792) The Syriac Peshitta and the Latin Vulgate render this word as “divinity.” Thus, here too, there is a solid basis for rendering the·oʹtes as referring to quality, not personality.

    A consideration of the context of Colossians 2:9 clearly shows that having “divinity,” or “divine nature,” does not make Christ the same as God the Almighty. In the preceding chapter, Paul says: “God saw good for all fullness to dwell in him.” (Col 1:19) Thus, all fullness dwells in Christ because it “pleased the Father” (KJ, Dy), because it was “by God’s own choice.” (NE) So the fullness of “divinity” that dwells in Christ is his as a result of a decision made by the Father. Further showing that having such “fullness” does not make Christ the same person as Almighty God is the fact that Paul later speaks of Christ as being “seated at the right hand of God.”​—Col 3:1.

    Considering the immediate context of Colossians 2:9, it is noted that in verse 8, Christians are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human tradition. They are also told that “carefully concealed in [Christ] are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge,” and they are urged to “go on walking in union with him, rooted and being built up in him and being stabilized in the faith.” (Col 2:3, 6, 7) In addition, verses 13 to 15 explain that they are made alive through faith, being released from the Law covenant. Paul’s argument, therefore, is that Christians do not need the Law (which was removed by means of Christ) or human philosophy and tradition. They have all they need, a precious “fullness,” in Christ.​—Col 2:10-12.

    Finally, at 2 Peter 1:3, 4 the apostle shows that by virtue of “the precious and very grand promises” extended to faithful anointed Christians, they “may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Elsewhere in the Scriptures, Christians are referred to as ‘sharing’ with Christ in his sufferings, in a death like his, and in a resurrection like his to immortality as spirit creatures, becoming joint heirs with him in the heavenly Kingdom. (1Co 15:50-54; Php 3:10, 11; 1Pe 5:1; 2Pe 1:2-4; Re 20:6) Thus it is evident that the sharing of Christians in “divine nature” is a sharing with Christ in his glory. Be blessed

     

    #866822
    Berean
    Participant

    “Jesus could not have been human and divine at the same time; “

     

    Jesus lived a man’s life even though he was God
    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

     

    #866823
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @nayasnanayahoo-com

    Please notice that “Jesus Christ” is not a lexical definition of logos. (lexical definition relating to the words or vocabulary of a language.) This verse does not say, “In the beginning was Jesus.” “The Word” is not synonymous with Jesus, or even “the Messiah.”

    Yet the parallels are strikingly similar.

    But what if the Logos was WITH God and that God created all things through him?

    And if it then became flesh and that is Jesus Christ, then isn’t it coincidental that Jesus Christ also came in the flesh?

    And again if all things were created through him and Jesus Christ is not the Word, then is it also coincidental that God created all things through both or perhaps God create two universes?

    John 1:1-3
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Hebrews 1:2
    but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Colossians 1:15-17
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him 

    Rev 3:14
    And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witnessthe beginning of the creation of God.

    And if his name is Jesus and so he is Jesus, then if his name is also The Word of God, then why is he NOT the Word of God?

    He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    And if Jesus Christ had zero history before coming in the flesh, then why is this in the Bible?

    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    BTW, I agree with much of what you have written so far. Just these parts I want to challenge you with.

    #866824
    Berean
    Participant

    The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God’s creative self-expression—His reason, purposes and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God’s self-expression, or communication, of Himself.

     

    The Bible Say THAT” the Word ”

    Was God.

     

    Can “God’s creative self-expression—His reason, purposes and plans,”

    BE GOD ????

    CAN “God’s creative self-expression—His reason, purposes and plans,”

    Made all things.   like John wrote:. ???

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Ephesians 3

    And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

     

    #866825
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @berean

    Jesus lived a man’s life even though he was God

    If the Father is the only true God as scripture states, then your verse basically says:

    Jesus lived a man’s life even though he was The Father

    I believe and I think you do too that it means that he had the same nature and as we know, he emptied himself and became a man.

    1 Timothy 1:17
    Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
    Amen.

    John 1:18
    No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    1 Corinthians 8:5-6
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

     

    #866826
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @berean2005

    Is this you too Berean?

    #866828
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Berean……God’s word belongs to God “alone”,  no matter who quotes it, the prophets or the flesh  man Jesus.   AND God said this , “you shall have “No” Other God besides me”.  So the question is , do you truly believe what God the Father said?, or have you made anot her God besides him, have you turned the flesh man Jesus,  into your GOD?   Even though  JESUS SAID,  “that they might know “You” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD, and Jesus,  the anointed one, who you have sent. 

    Jesus said….’“no man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. YOU cannot serve GOD and mammon. 

    Tell me Berean,  do you hate God the Father And love The Man Jesus? , or do you love God the Father , like Jesus did?, and give him “ALL” the Glory like Jesus did?   DO YOU ROB GOD, and pay Jesus, like nearly all Christanity does? 2ths2.  Has Jesus become your “only” true God”.

    Do you see the man Jesus, as our example of how to have a right relationship with his and our God,  Or do you,  worship Jesus as you God?

     

    GENE SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE WHERE

    GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF SAYS:

     

    I AM THE ONLY

    TRUE

    GOD!

     

    NOW ANSWER WHY THE FATHER ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE ONLY SAID THAT

    HE IS GOD AND

    NEVER SAID

    HIMSELF

    THAT

    HE IS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

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