John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,081 through 21,100 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866783
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The point of a topic here is to uncover the truth.

    But you need honest people in the process to make that happen.

    Unfortunately there are people here who are not honest.

    They cannot answer a simple yes or no.

    Thus, their answers must be coming from the Evil One.

    But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’ and your ‘No’ be ‘No. … Whatever is more than these is of the evil one.

    They will give every excuse under the sun and even write off this verse as not being relevant.

    But know this. No lie is of God. Truth is an attribute of God and God’s children. And the Son of God is the truth.

    Dishonest people are not worthy to be given truth though.  It is for the innocent and those who truly seek.

    But some people only seek that which makes them look good and right in their own eyes.

    God sends a strong delusion to some people.

    #866784
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj….let me break it down for you OK,

    1 Peter 1:10 -11…….Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied  of the grace that should come unto you: 11,  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was “in” them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and unto the glory, that should follow.

    1…..the Spirit of Christ ?, “that was the “anointing” Holy Spirit of God , that was “in” them, it was testifying to them beforehand about the sufferings of “THE ANOINTED ONE” the man Jesus,  it was the exact same Holy Spirit Jesus was “Anointed” with at the Jordan river. that was testifying to them (the prophets), beforehand.  

    Your mixing up the words rendered as “Christ”,  in some cases it is meaning  the “the Anointing Spirit of God itself” and in others places it is meaning  the “ANOINTED” ones of GOD, or , the person who is the Anointed one.   

    For instance nearly every time scriptures say Jesus Christ,  it is meaning the man  Jesus who is  “the anointed one”,  it is not saying Jesus himself is the anointing Spirit,  it is saying,  he is the one “ANOINTED” with the Spirit.  

    It unfortunate that the translators left out the words “the anointed one”,  because it can give a false impression that Jesus himself is the anointing he was anointed with. But if you will check out the original Greek translations you will see that the original text nearly  always says Jesus  “the anointed on”,  not just Jesus Christ as our text shows.  Check it out for yourself and you will see what I mean.

    Again the term “CHRIST” IN SCRIPTURES can be taken two ways, one as the person “anointed”  or,  in other cases,  as the Anointing Spirit itself, depending on the context of the verse  it is used in. 

    Hope that helped Edj.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

     

    #866785
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel….I AM NOT GOD,  nor is Jesus the one you have turned into your God.  God has the power to make every word he speaks come ture, I certanly do not have that power, no do , you either.  So the last post of your is pure foolishness. IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #866786
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer,  I see your still hung up on the word, “Before”,  used there by Jesus. Why not spend some of your time and give it and “honest” research for a change, instead of taking the side of those blind,  false accusing people,  Jesus was talking to. 

    Those Jew always used Abraham to justify there “position”  with God, why do you think John the Baptist said to them,  “God could raise up those stones unto Abraham if he wanted to.”  Jesus  was simply telling them he was “more important” or “before”  Abraham,  in importance  to them.  I realize you can’t understand that, because of your own blindness, that you are accusing others of here, but none the less the truth shall prevail in the end. 

    Why can’t you understand what Jesus was actually meaning,  If you were of the truth you could easely understand it,  So instead of going around accusing others of being dishonest and disenginuous,  why not take a good look at yourself for a change?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #866787
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all….The man Jesus said , “every word that proceeds out of the mouth of GOD, that shall a man  live by”.  Jesus was a Son of Man. 

    The man Jesus said to us all, that those words he spoke were,  “not” his own words, saying,  “the words I am telling you are “NOT” “MY”  words, but the words of him who sent me”. Does anyone here have any trouble with “believing” those words of Jesus?

    Peace and love to you all and yours. ……….gene

     

    #866788
    Berean
    Participant

    COLOSSIANS 2:9

    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    [9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

    GODHEAD = DIVINITY

    JESUS IS NOT JUST A MAN.

    #866789
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer, I see your still hung up on the word, “Before”…

    I see you are still avoiding simple yes or no questions regarding what you believe. If you avoid scrutiny and do not seek truth that is outside of yourself, you will be deceived. It is that simple. And it’s your life. Your choice. Your responsibility.

    #866790
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:

    Likewise, there is no amount of scriptures you can post saying Jesus existed as a human that will ever change the scriptural fact that he first existed (and does again) as a spirit entity in heaven alongside his and our God, YHVH.

    ME:

    That’s just it though, he doesn’t exist as a spirit entity in heaven Mike, he sits at YHVH’s right hand as a Son of Man, and he is returning to earth as a Son of Man, and when he returns to earth he is going to sit on his father David’s throne ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, where he is a Son of God according to the Spirit, which makes him a spiritual human being, The Spirit bears witness to his spirit that he is a Son of God. Your are “spiritual” when you walk in all of God’s ways.  

    Likewise, all of this was God’s WORD from the beginning, 

    This Son of Man did not have his flesh decay, it received life again, with glory, power, made incorruptible, God’s WORD of eternal life before the world began.  

    The glory of this Son of Man having been exalted to sit at YHVH’s right hand was YHVH’s WORD declared from the beginning!

    This Son of Man who returns in his own glory and the Father’s glory was YHVH’s WORD declared from the beginning!

     

    #866791
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU; God has the power to make every word he speaks come ture,

    100% TRUTH:

    NOW ANSWER Gene, IF YOU ARE HONEST  AND BELIEVE IN A TRUE GOD OF WHICH I DOUBT,

    with every respect to your carnal minded mentality.

    WHAT DOES GOD MAKE USE OF APART HIS POWER,

    TO MAKE HIS WORD TO COME TRUE?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866792
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    ME:  I don’t read the verse and see it as you do, so your question doesn’t work.

    YOU:
    Its not a verse Jodi but purely a statement worded by me.

    Do you believe that statement?

    Yes, No, I don’t know. Here it is again.

    The messiah’s name is Jesus and also The Word of God. He is Jesus but he is not The Word of God.

    Do not let deceit in your heart win again. Be honest and let light into the darkness where deceit lies.

    Is the statement true or false?

    ME: 

    You are asking me to answer a question based from a STATEMENT you made just prior to the question, a statement that I believe is false.

    Here is the thing though, I can answer your question, if it just stands alone. I can answer it if I disregard the statement given just prior.

    The question standing alone, 

    He is Jesus but he is not The Word of God?

    Answer, FALSE

    The Messiah is Jesus, for Jesus was anointed at the river Jordan and then was sent out into the world.

    The Messiah is the Word of God, as the Word of God was a promise for a messiah to one day come.

    The Word of God of a Messiah, one anointed with the Spirit promised to come into the world, was made true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth.

     

    #866793
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Gene,
     
    If you believe that, then you need to smudge this verse out of your bible…
     
    “Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
    when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.” (1 Peter 1:11)
     
    The bread from heaven (Christ) being born in the house of bread (Bethlehem)
    This is talking about “The spirit of Christ” that Jesus was born with…
     
    “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of
    Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
    whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)
     
    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    Edj….let me break it down for you OK,

    1…..the Spirit of Christ ?, “that was the “anointing” Holy Spirit of God

    Hi Gene,

    There’s only one problem it doesn’t say that. But here is what “The Bible” does say…

    “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” (Prov 30:6)

    #866794
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    You: “Do not let deceit in your heart win again. Be honest and let light into the darkness where deceit lies.”

    ME: This is total slander, care to give me an example as to when you knew that I had deceit in my heart and it won?

    #866795
    Ed J
    Participant

    Gene,

    The bible clearly says Christ was born in Bethlehem. But
    you instead believe “Christ” was begotten at the Jordan river.
    Satan has deceived ‘your mind’ with the doctrine of separation!

    #866796
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: 1…..the Spirit of Christ ?,

    “that was the “anointing” Holy Spirit of God ,

    that was “in” them, it was testifying to them beforehand about the sufferings of “THE ANOINTED ONE” the man Jesus,

    it was the exact same Holy Spirit Jesus was “Anointed” with at the Jordan river.

    that was testifying to them (the prophets), beforehand.

     

    Read Hereunder Gene,now

     

    Romans 8:9But you are not in the flesh,

    but in the spirit, (OF CHRIST)

    if so be that the Spirit of God (“THE WORD”the seed of God,)  DWELLS in you.(Luke 8:11-15)

    CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:

    Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,(IN HIM through “THE WORD”)

    he is none of his. (CHRIST/GODMAN on earth)

    10And if Christ be in you,

    the body indeed is dead, because of sin;

    but the spirit liveth, because of justification.

     

    ME: WE SINNERS, ARE JUSTIFIED PURE IN JESUS THE SON OF MAN,

    FIRST ON HIS BAPTISM, (for our souls) THEN ON HIS RESURRECTION.(for our flesh)

    NOW JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, THE HUMAN NATURE, (the flesh) GLORIFIED ON HIS DEATH AND BECAME 

    ONE SUBSTANCE IN THE HOLY GHOST (the soul) JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE, John13:31-32

    THUS THEY ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE BUT

    TWO IN ONE FLESH IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    Godman on earth

    THE HOLY SPIRIT AT THE JORDAN WAS OF THE FATHER.

    NOW THE HOLY SPIRIT LEFT JESUS JUST BEFORE HIS DEATH.

    THE SAME HOLY SPIRIT OF THE FATHER WAS SENT BY JESUS

    IN THE GLORY AND POWER OF JESUS

    GODMAN ON EARTH

    ON PENTECOST,

    1John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding

    that we may know the true God,

    and maybe in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    JESUS CHRIST

    OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER

    Ephesians 4:1I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, (JESUS CHRIST) beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5One Lord, (JESUS CHRIST) one faith, one baptism.

    6One God and Father of all,(BOTH FLESH AND SOUL) who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

    WE ARE HIS CHILDREN John17:2,  Isaiah 9:6

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866797
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Jodi

    If Jesus were only a man, he could not judge the good and the bad …
    think a little
    Jesus is called THE WORD and he is God made flesh.
    If you don’t believe this part of the truth, you cannot understand the rest and you will continue to preach an outlaw Christ ….

    ME: 

    You said,  “If Jesus were only a man, he could not judge the good and the bad”

    such is a false doctrine that comes out from misinterpreting scriptures, and you misinterpret those scriptures because you ignore and don’t apply other passages to them so that they can be properly understood.

    1. There is NO declaration in the below passages that God became flesh.
    2.  What you are directly told is that there is a stem of Jesse, whom the LORD rests His Spirit upon and by that Spirit upon him, he brings forth justice. 
    3. There is NO declaration in the below passages that God becomes flesh to judge the world.
    4. What you are directly told is that God is going to judge the world by a man whom God ordained. 
    5. What you are directly told is that a man was called to righteousness having God direct all his ways and by such He delivers captives.  

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and UNDERSTANDING, the Spirit of COUNSEL and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

    3 And shall MAKE him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

    4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

    Isaiah 42:1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. …6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, 7 to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness. 8 “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols. 

    Isaiah 45:6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other. 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. ..13 I will raise him up in my righteousness: I will make all his ways straight. He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free,

    Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

    It is not that God became flesh for to save us and to judge us.

    It is that God anointed a man with His Spirit without measure to save us and to judge us. 

    It is not God is made into a man so we could be saved and be properly judged.

    A MAN is MADE into a savior and a judge by our One True God the Father YHVH, and such is literally YHVH’s WORD that He had spoken from the beginning, where that word becomes true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth. 

    #866798
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You: “Do not let deceit in your heart win again. Be honest and let light into the darkness where deceit lies.”

    ME: This is total slander, care to give me an example as to when you knew that I had deceit in my heart and it won?

    Not my measure of judgement. Don’t shoot the messenger.

    But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’ and your ‘No’ be ‘No. ’Whatever is more than these is of the evil one.

    An honest person can easily answer a yes no question.

    #866799
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Ed J,

    YOU: The bible clearly says Christ was born in Bethlehem.

    ME: The bible also clearly says that Jesus was “BORN KING of the Jews”. 

    But he WAS NOT a KING with a kingdom, when he was born. 

    Likewise, he was not a savior when he was born, and it’s very ridiculous to think the baby Jesus was a lord over anyone when he was born, neither was he an anointed one yet either.

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and PROPHESIED, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    Ed J, 

    So I am to believe that Zacharias was giving a prophecy soon to be fulfilled by Jesus’ birth?

    and

    I am to believe that raising up a horn of salvation in the house of David, which God spake since the world began, equates to God sending down a pre-existing anointed savior to become flesh?

    Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his PROMISE raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God ANOINTED Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath ANOINTED me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    Ed J,

    You are telling me that I am to believe that the savior had already come, but yet passages say he didn’t come until after John preached the baptism of repentance?

    So it’s okay to believe you over direct scripture?

    So Jesus being said to be “born king of the Jews”, it’s okay to apply that as him being the person of prophecy, but when he is said to be born a savior who is Christ the lord, it’s impossible to apply prophecy in “this case”, even though direct scripture supports that it most certainly was being applied as prophecy?

    You are told directly when Jesus was made the anointed one and then sent out into the world, but I guess I am suppose to believe you over scripture, nope, I don’t think so!

    #866800
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…..They can only take one  scripture or part of a scripture and make their own blind sense of it,  No matter how many other scriptures we quote that shows them their errors,  they are simply unable to put them together.   If they were of the truth they would have no problem understanding exactly what we are telling them.  This whole thing here is an exercise of futality. IMO

    “unless the LORD is the builder of the house the weary builders toil in vain”,  “unless the LORD’S the city’s shield the guards maintain a useless watch’. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #866801
    Jodi
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    You: “Do not let deceit in your heart win again. Be honest and let light into the darkness where deceit lies.”

    ME: This is total slander, care to give me an example as to when you knew that I had deceit in my heart and it won?

    YOU: Not my measure of judgement. Don’t shoot the messenger.

    But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’ and your ‘No’ be ‘No. ’Whatever is more than these is of the evil one.

    An honest person can easily answer a yes no question.

    ME: How exactly is it not your measure of judgment?.. you are applying the words directly to me.

    “Don’t shoot the messenger huh”, so who gave you that message and told you to post it directly to me? 

     

    #866802
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    It’s just another day on the forum! We’ll stay strong and just keep plugging on I suppose!

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