John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,821 through 20,840 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866441
    Berean
    Participant

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

     

    with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    And he is BEFORE all things, and by him all things consist…..

     

    #866442
    Berean
    Participant

    Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me BEFORE(PRO)the foundation of the world.

    #866443
    Berean
    Participant

    with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE(PRO) the world was.

    And he is BEFORE(PRO) all things, and by him all things consist…..

    #866444
    Berean
    Participant

     

    before
    πρὸ (pro)
    Preposition
    Strong’s Greek 4253: A primary preposition; ‘fore’, i.e. In front of, prior to.

    #866445
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    πρὸ (pro) — 47 Occurrences

    Pretty clear what the word means when you look at the other scriptures.

    https://biblehub.com/greek/pro_4253.htm

    Englishman’s Concordance

    Matthew 5:12 Prep
    GRK: προφήτας τοὺς πρὸ ὑμῶν
    NAS: the prophets who were before you.
    KJV: the prophets which were before you.
    INT: prophets who [were] before you

    Matthew 6:8 Prep
    GRK: χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς
    NAS: what you need before you ask Him.
    KJV: ye have need of, before ye ask
    INT: need you have before you

    Matthew 8:29 Prep
    GRK: ἦλθες ὧδε πρὸ καιροῦ βασανίσαι
    NAS: here to torment us before the time?
    KJV: to torment us before the time?
    INT: are you come here before [the] time to torment

    Matthew 11:10 Prep
    GRK: ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου
    KJV: my messenger before thy face,
    INT: messenger of me before [the] face of you

    Matthew 24:38 Prep
    GRK: ἐκείναις ταῖς πρὸ τοῦ κατακλυσμοῦ
    NAS: days before the flood
    KJV: that were before the flood
    INT: those before the flood

    Mark 1:2 Prep
    GRK: ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου
    NAS: MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO
    KJV: my messenger before thy face,
    INT: messenger of me before face of you

    Luke 2:21 Prep
    GRK: τοῦ ἀγγέλου πρὸ τοῦ συλλημφθῆναι
    NAS: by the angel before He was conceived
    KJV: of the angel before he was conceived
    INT: the angel before was conceived

    Luke 7:27 Prep
    GRK: ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου
    NAS: MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO
    KJV: my messenger before thy face,
    INT: messenger of me before [the] face of you

    Luke 9:52 Prep
    GRK: ἀπέστειλεν ἀγγέλους πρὸ προσώπου αὐτοῦ
    NAS: messengers on ahead of Him, and they went
    KJV: sent messengers before his face:
    INT: he sent messengers before [the] face of him

    Luke 10:1 Prep
    GRK: δύο δύο πρὸ προσώπου αὐτοῦ
    NAS: them in pairs ahead of Him to every
    KJV: two and two before his face
    INT: pairs [by] pairs before [the] face of himself

    Luke 11:38 Prep
    GRK: πρῶτον ἐβαπτίσθη πρὸ τοῦ ἀρίστου
    NAS: ceremonially washed before the meal.
    KJV: first washed before dinner.
    INT: first he washed before the dinner

    Luke 21:12 Prep
    GRK: πρὸ δὲ τούτων
    NAS: But before all these things,
    KJV: But before all these,
    INT: Before however these things

    Luke 22:15 Prep
    GRK: μεθ’ ὑμῶν πρὸ τοῦ με
    NAS: Passover with you before I suffer;
    KJV: with you before I suffer:
    INT: with you before I

    John 1:48 Prep
    GRK: εἶπεν αὐτῷ Πρὸ τοῦ σε
    NAS: and said to him, Before Philip
    KJV: unto him, Before that Philip
    INT: said to him Before that you

    John 5:7 Prep
    GRK: ἐγὼ ἄλλος πρὸ ἐμοῦ καταβαίνει
    NAS: another steps down before me.
    KJV: another steppeth down before me.
    INT: I another before me descends

    John 10:8 Prep
    GRK: ὅσοι ἦλθον πρὸ ἐμοῦ κλέπται
    NAS: came before Me are thieves
    KJV: that ever came before me are
    INT: who ever came before me thieves

    John 11:55 Prep
    GRK: τῆς χώρας πρὸ τοῦ πάσχα
    NAS: out of the country before the Passover
    KJV: to Jerusalem before the passover,
    INT: the region before the passover

    John 12:1 Prep
    GRK: οὖν Ἰησοῦς πρὸ ἓξ ἡμερῶν
    NAS: six days before the Passover, came
    KJV: six days before the passover came
    INT: Therefore Jesus before six days

    John 13:1 Prep
    GRK: ΠΡΟ ΔΕ ΤΗΣ
    NAS: Now before the Feast of the Passover,
    KJV: Now before the feast of the passover,
    INT: before moreover the

    John 13:19 Prep
    GRK: λέγω ὑμῖν πρὸ τοῦ γενέσθαι
    NAS: on I am telling you before [it] comes
    KJV: I tell you before it come, that,
    INT: I tell you before it comes to pass

    John 17:5 Prep
    GRK: ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν
    NAS: I had with You before the world
    KJV: with thee before the world was.
    INT: which I had before the

    John 17:24 Prep
    GRK: ἠγάπησάς με πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου
    NAS: Me, for You loved Me before the foundation
    KJV: me before the foundation
    INT: you loved me before [the] foundation of [the] world

    Acts 5:36 Prep
    GRK: πρὸ γὰρ τούτων
    NAS: For some time ago Theudas rose
    KJV: For before these days
    INT: before indeed these

    Acts 12:6 Prep
    GRK: φύλακές τε πρὸ τῆς θύρας
    NAS: and guards in front of the door
    KJV: and the keepers before the door kept
    INT: guards also before the door

    Acts 12:14 Prep
    GRK: τὸν Πέτρον πρὸ τοῦ πυλῶνος
    NAS: was standing in front of the gate.
    KJV: Peter stood before the gate.
    INT: Peter before the gate

    Acts 13:24 Prep
    GRK: προκηρύξαντος Ἰωάννου πρὸ προσώπου τῆς
    NAS: had proclaimed before His coming
    KJV: had first preached before his
    INT: having before proclaimed John before [the] face the

    Acts 14:13 Prep
    GRK: τοῦ ὄντος πρὸ τῆς πόλεως
    NAS: of Zeus, whose [temple] was just outside the city,
    KJV: which was before their city,
    INT: who was before the city

    Acts 21:38 Prep
    GRK: Αἰγύπτιος ὁ πρὸ τούτων τῶν
    NAS: time ago stirred up a revolt
    KJV: that Egyptian, which before these
    INT: Egyptian who before these the

    Acts 23:15 Prep
    GRK: ἡμεῖς δὲ πρὸ τοῦ ἐγγίσαι
    NAS: to slay him before he comes near
    KJV: and we, or ever he come near,
    INT: we moreover before drawing near

    Romans 16:7 Prep
    GRK: οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γέγοναν
    NAS: also were in Christ before me.
    KJV: in Christ before me.
    INT: who also before me were

    1 Corinthians 2:7 Prep
    GRK: ὁ θεὸς πρὸ τῶν αἰώνων
    NAS: predestined before the ages
    KJV: God ordained before the world unto
    INT: God before the ages

    1 Corinthians 4:5 Prep
    GRK: ὥστε μὴ πρὸ καιροῦ τι
    NAS: do not go on passing judgment before the time,
    KJV: judge nothing before the time, until
    INT: So that not before [the] time anything

    2 Corinthians 12:2 Prep
    GRK: ἐν Χριστῷ πρὸ ἐτῶν δεκατεσσάρων
    NAS: years ago– whether
    KJV: fourteen years ago, (whether in
    INT: in Christ ago years fourteen

    Galatians 1:17 Prep
    GRK: πρὸς τοὺς πρὸ ἐμοῦ ἀποστόλους
    NAS: who were apostles before me; but I went away
    KJV: them which were apostles before me;
    INT: to those [who were] before me apostles

    Galatians 2:12 Prep
    GRK: πρὸ τοῦ γὰρ
    NAS: For prior to the coming of certain men
    KJV: For before that certain came
    INT: prior indeed

    Galatians 3:23 Prep
    GRK: Πρὸ τοῦ δὲ
    NAS: But before faith came,
    KJV: But before faith came,
    INT: before moreover

    Ephesians 1:4 Prep
    GRK: ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου
    NAS: as He chose us in Him before the foundation
    KJV: him before the foundation
    INT: in him before [the] foundation of [the] world

    Colossians 1:17 Prep
    GRK: αὐτὸς ἔστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ
    NAS: He is before all
    KJV: he is before all things, and
    INT: he is before all and

    2 Timothy 1:9 Prep
    GRK: Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων
    KJV: Christ Jesus before the world began,
    INT: Christ Jesus before time eternal

    2 Timothy 4:21 Prep
    GRK: Σπούδασον πρὸ χειμῶνος ἐλθεῖν
    NAS: to come before winter.
    KJV: to come before winter.
    INT: Be earnest before winter to come

    Titus 1:2 Prep
    GRK: ἀψευδὴς θεὸς πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων
    NAS: promised long ages ago,
    KJV: promised before the world
    INT: who cannot lie God before time eternal

    Hebrews 11:5 Prep
    GRK: ὁ θεός πρὸ γὰρ τῆς
    NAS: HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken
    KJV: him: for before his translation
    INT: God before indeed the

    James 5:9 Prep
    GRK: ὁ κριτὴς πρὸ τῶν θυρῶν
    NAS: is standing right at the door.
    KJV: the judge standeth before the door.
    INT: the judge before the doors

    James 5:12 Prep
    GRK: Πρὸ πάντων δέ
    NAS: But above all, my brethren,
    KJV: But above all things, my
    INT: Before all things however

    1 Peter 1:20 Prep
    GRK: προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου
    NAS: For He was foreknown before the foundation
    KJV: was foreordained before the foundation
    INT: having been foreknown indeed before [the] foundation of [the] world

    1 Peter 4:8 Prep
    GRK: πρὸ πάντων τὴν
    NAS: Above all, keep
    KJV: And above all things have
    INT: before all things

    Jude 1:25 Prep
    GRK: καὶ ἐξουσία πρὸ παντὸς τοῦ
    NAS: and authority, before all
    INT: and authority before all


    #866449
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel……The seed Jesus was talking about is the seed of the kingdom of God, which he went about sowing in people. He was not talking about seed as relating to his linage from Abraham, as what Paul was talking about.

    Man are you ever screwed up in you thinking,  what makes you think you can move contexts of thing written to fit your own “spicial” thinking, when things arn’t even hinted at what you say.  Do you realize how ignorant those false asumptions of your makes you out to be?

    Gene, I  repeat what I told you in the last post, HERE IT COMES: 

    First and foremost

    WHEN IT COMES TO THE SPIRITUAL DOCTRINE I’M AFRAID YOU AND Jodi with every respect  ARE SIMPLY

    DEAD!

    ESPECIALLY WHEN THIS DOCTRINE IT IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO

    “THE WORD”

    DESPITE THE FACT THAT SCRIPTURE MADE IT ABSOLUTE TRUTH THAT

    “THE WORD” IS JESUS 

    THE SON

    OF MAN,

     

    CAN YOU SEE WHAT IS THE TRUTH HIDDEN BEHIND the title SON of man, Gene?

    NEVER, NEVER, and NEVER!

    Now read the pure truth:

    Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this:

    The seed is “THE WORD” of God. and

    “THE WORD” is JESUS, the SON of man!

    I SAID Gene that

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN IS 

    THE SEED OF GOD!

    NOW READ SCRIPTURE HEREUNDER AGAIN, RESPECT IT, AND KEEP IN MIND THAT THE CONTEXT IS

    ABOUT GOD AND THE PROCESS OF HIS DIVINITY AD INTRA.

    NOT

    ABOUT THE CORRUPTED PROCESS OF MAN AND THE WORLD.

    THUS DISCERN THE HIDDEN MEANING FOR A CHANGE:

    Colossians 1:Who is the image of the invisible God,

    (THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD PRE-EXISTED BEFORE THE WORLD WAS UNKNOWN TO THE HEAVENLY REALMS John 1:31)

    the firstborn of every creature: (PRE-EXISTED)

    16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him.

    IN THE ABOVE Gene, SCRIPTURE IS MORE THAN CLEAR THAT AS JOHN SAID REGARDING

    “THE WORD”

    All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

    NOW ON THIS CORRUPTED WORLD WE HAVE TONS OF DIFFERENT SEEDS APART 

    HUMAN SEED/SPERMA, AND WITH RESPECT OF THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE Gene, ATTENTION:

    ALL THE SEEDS ON THIS PLANET 

    ARE MADE BY

    HERE IT COMES Gene: BY 

    THE SEED OF GOD

    “THE WORD” A SPIRIT OF GOD.

    WHO WAS MADE FLESH

    JESUS, THE SON

    of MAN

    GET THIS INTO YOUR CARNAL MINDED MENTALITY, Gene,

     THAT WITH RESPECT TO SCRIPTURES 

    THERE ‘S NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSES WHICH IS NOT CREATED BY 

    THE ONE AND ONLY ONE UNIQUE

     SPIRIT

    “THE WORD”, Jesus, the Son of Man

    GOT IT Gene,  read what you said now;

    The seed Jesus was talking about is the seed of the kingdom of God, which he went about sowing in people. He was not talking about the seed as relating to his linage from Abraham, as what Paul was talking about.

    FOR YOU, JODI, AND FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE 

    CARNALLY STAGNATED,

    THE THINGS IN GENERAL OF GOD ARE LIKE 

    THE THINGS OF HUMANS!

    NOW READ SCRIPTURE Gene:

    Isaiah 55:11

    For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,

    so are my ways exalted above your ways,

    and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my WORD be,( JESUS’ SPIRIT, THE SON OF MAN )

    which shall go forth from my mouth: 

    it shall not return to me void, ( BUT GLORIFIED GODMAN)

    but it shall do whatsoever I please, (DID YOU GET THIS? Gene, EVEN ALL THE SEEDS OF THIS WORLD, NEVER MIND THE CORRUPTED FILTHY SPERMA!)

    and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

     

    Man are you ever screwed up in your thinking,

    what makes you think you can move contexts of thing written to fit your own

    “special” thinking,

    when things aren’t even hinted at what you say.

      Do you realize how IGNORANT those false assumptions of your makes you out to be?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    #866450
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..Show “ONE” SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS ever said he was God the Fathers “WORD”   SO how do you reconcile this what Jesus “actually” said,  remember this is not me saying this , it is Jesus “himself”……“the words I am telling you are “NOT” my words but the words of him who “sent” me.”  Tell me, if Jesus himself says the words he spoke were “NOT” his words, but the words of him who sent him. TELL US SHOULD WE BELIEVE YOU OR JESUS? 

    • I chose to believe “the “man” Jesus and what he said, concerning whose words they were, he was telling us ,  not you, sorry, and I also believe this he said ,  “this is “eternal” life , that the might know “YOU”  THE “ONLY”  “TRUE” GOD…….,

    I ALSO THINK I will believe what Paul said over you also,  “but unto us there is but “ONE” GOD and one mediator between God and men, the “MAN” Jesus Christ”.   

    O and let’s not forget what Jesus quoted,  the “shema”,  “Hear O Israel, the  LORD (Yehovah)  “OUR” GOD, IS “ONE” LORD (Yehovah). ”  I see no mention of a triune God there do you? 

    And let not forget what God the Father himself self said also…..“You shall have “NO” OTHER God, besides me”.  You shall make “no” image of me in heaven above or earth below”.  

    So tell us again who should we believe, you or what the Apostles,  Jesus,  and God the Father said? , I know who I will believe and it is not you, Carmel. Your self proclaimed “insperational enlightenments”,   is nothing but pure deception given you by a delusional spirit sent to all those who “love not the truth”.  2THS2. 

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    #866451
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    ..Show “ONE” SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS ever said he was God the Fathers “WORD” SO how do you reconcile this what Jesus “actually” said, remember this is not me saying this , it is Jesus “himself”……“the words I am telling you are “NOT” my words but the words of him who “sent” me.” Tell me, if Jesus himself says the words he spoke were “NOT” his words, but the words of him who sent him. TELL US SHOULD WE BELIEVE YOU OR JESUS?

    Some poor reasoning here.

    Tell me where Jesus mentioned Michael the archangel.

    Mustn’t exist then right? See how silly your argument is?

    Further, he emptied himself and learned obedience.

    Now he is back in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

    You have free will, so can choose to either believe or not.

    #866453
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I see you posted scriptures that I have numerous times addressed by applying them to other scriptures so you could see the VERY SIMPLE given truth. You just ignore and go around in circles.

    Jesus said he came down from heaven, yes of course, he came to us directly from God exactly according to God’s word given in prophecy. YHVH’s word that He spoke to Isaiah and to David as well as other prophets was made true in the flesh in more ways than one.  Jesus said that he was not of this world like the apostles were not of this world, that he was sent as they were sent. So…….? YOUR JUST SILENT about that verse?… and you REFUSE to apply CERTAIN WORDS FROM JESUS THAT DON’T FIT your doctrine, let alone apply YHVH’s word spoken beforehand.

    WITH is a word that represents OF. Jesus was not ignorant to OT scripture concerning himself, he even quoted it concerning himself. He most certainly asked YHVH for the glory that was OF YHVH for him that YHVH had declared from the beginning. It’s like you don’t pay attention to the WORD of YHVH given to you nor bother to actually argue against the direct points I give you based on scripture, it’s ridiculous.

    Berean, YHVH knew us before we were born, you don’t think He likewise knew and loved Jesus before he was born? You don’t think He created all things out of love? Have you ZERO concept that YHVH is ALL KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL and that everything unfolds according to His hands and determined purpose? 

    YHVH’s purpose was to make mankind in His own image and give them eternal life. Jesus is that firstborn of many brethren. but you make him into a false god.

    #866455
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer….your response is what is rediclious, here is why,  if you said Jesus was Michael the Arch Angel,  then I could reasonable ask you where did Jesus himself ever say that, and that would be a right and worthy question,  right?,  why?,  because it is addressing who Jesus “really” is, and,  that question has nothing to do with the fact that there is a Arch angel Michael who exists,  why?, because his existence is not the subject matter. 

    If you and others say Jesus “is” “the word”  of God, and Jesus says,  the words he was telling us “is not “his” words,  then my question is appropriate why ?, because it is concerning who Jesus “really is”,  your response changes “subject matter”,  mine does not .  That’s  the difference , we ask ligimate question and give scriptures that deal with them, and you people change subject matter, so you won’t have to deal with those “LIGIMATE”  questions and scriptures we post.

    IT’S like playing a shell game with you people, when you can’t deal with the question and scriptures we give, you simple switch subjects, and try to render what we ask as rediclious. But those who really love the truth will not ignore them, and the light that is in them will be increased.

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

     

    #866459
    Berean
    Participant

    Jésus IS THE CREATOR AND chief of the Angels because God create all things by HIM.It IS why Bible name HIM ARCHANGEL

    ARCH=CHIEF

    ARCHANGEL = CHIEF OF THE ANGELS

    MICHAËL= WHO IS LIKE GOD ?

    JESUS IS LIKE GOD AND ALSO LIKE HUMAN….AND HE LIVE LIKE A MAN MUST LIVE IN THE WAYS OF GOD

    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    AMEN ALLELOUIA !

     

    THANKS GOD FOR YOU OWN BELOVED SON

     

    #866460
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:Carmel…..Show “ONE” SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS ever said he was God the Fathers “WORD” 

    Gene,

    Show “ONE” SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS ever said he was a

    A JEW BUT WITH RESPECT TO SCRIPTURE HE DEFINITELY WAS.

    Show “ONE” SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS ever said he was a

    A SON OF ABRAHAM BUT WITH RESPECT TO SCRIPTURES HE DEFINITELY WAS.

    Show “ONE” SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS ever said he was a

    A SON OF DAVID BUT WITH RESPECT TO SCRIPTURES HE DEFINITELY WAS.

    Show “ONE” SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS ever said he was a

    PROPHET BUT WITH RESPECT TO SCRIPTURES HE DEFINITELY WAS.

    Show “ONE” SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS ever said he was a

    PREACHER BUT WITH RESPECT TO SCRIPTURES HE DEFINITELY WAS.

    THAT’S ENOUGH OF THAT STUFF!

    NOW TO THE TRUTH:

    Show “ONE” SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS ever said he was

    THE “WORD” OF GOD

    HE NEVER SAID SO DIRECTLY,

    BUT WITH RESPECT TO SCRIPTURES HE DEFINITELY WAS.

     

    THAT WILL DO GENE

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #866461
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Christ Jesus =  the ANOINTED Jesus.

    WHEN was Jesus ANOINTED? At the river Jordan of course!

    What was he anointed with? The Spirit of YHVH without measure of course!

    What did that make him exist as? In the form of YHVH of course!

    but people didn’t believe him and it made him cry out, 

    “44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    Berean, you want to tell me that Jesus “left his glory behind”, when the truth is that he BECAME GLORY upon his anointing, which people witnessed and beheld that glory as he was sent out into the world, the glory of the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE SPIRIT OF YHVH WITHOUT MEASURE who was FILLED with grace and TRUTH able to speak THE WORD of YHVH because the Spirit had descended upon him.  Such is YHVH’s WORD that was declared from the beginning, later given to Isaiah, then MADE TRUE IN THE FLESH.

    #866465
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..but Jesus did say ‘himself” this,  “the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS,  but the Words of him that sent me”. 

    We don’t have to assume anything  about that, now do we? Question is,  do you “truly” believe what Jesus himself said?

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #866466
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..Why did you deliberately leave off the rest of verse 10?    where it show we bow our knee to Jesus, to the “glory of God”.  

    Is it because you want Jesus to be your God? 2ths2. 

    Peace and love to you and yours…….gene

    #866467
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer and All,

    The below scriptures teach us that YHVH’s WORD before the world began was a promise of eternal life unto mankind, where all flesh would come to worship Him as they inhabit the earth. We are also taught that YHVH SAITH that He HIMSELF formed the earth and made it.

    We are given in YHVH’s WORD, not only who formed and created the earth, but also we are given that there was a PURPOSE established before it was even created. 

    Furthermore we are given that YHVH foreknew and predestinated  people to be glorified. YHVH sanctifies and ordains even before being formed in the womb. He thus most certainly loves before one even exists.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 

    Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to HIS PURPOSE. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

    Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 

     

    #866468
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer and All,

    1 John 1: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;

    Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Eternal Life was WITH the Father from the beginning, it was promised before the world even began unto man. The people witnessed the promised glory that was WITH/PARA/FROM/OF the Father before the world was,  when they saw with their eyes and handled with their hands, the resurrected MAN JESUS. 

    #866469
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer and All,

    Scripture gives us a clear message. 

    We know that which was THE WORD that was WITH YHVH from the beginning, eternal life for the flesh creature that YHVH had made, human beings.

    His PURPOSE was for humans to live with His Spirit upon them for all eternity, where humans are Sons being led by that Spirit that is upon them. Jesus became THE WORD made true in the flesh, where the people were a witness, seeing and touching THE WORD made true, the resurrected Jesus.

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Seeing the resurrected Jesus was to produce faith and hope in God, as Jesus’s resurrection was promised to be their resurrection. As we are promised to have our grave open and receive the Holy Spirit, we are told that Jesus was raised receiving the promised Holy Spirit, given for all eternity. We have been promised to be JOINT heirs with Jesus, being heirs of God where those who have the Spirit upon them being led by the Spirit are Sons of God. 

    John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

    Romans 8:6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

    2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    Romans 8:10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him,Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Jesus was the only mortal man to have received the Spirit not by measure. That Spirit gives life because of righteousness, as that Spirit causes you to walk in all of God’s ways where you thus are not worthy of death. As Jesus was not worthy of death he was raised from the dead receiving the glory that was PROMISED from God for mankind declared from the beginning.

    God could justify ALL sins through the anointed Jesus, because Jesus is proof that the Spirit does cause righteousness. This was for us to know, so that we would seek God, trust in Him and His word, and desire His Spirit, seek to be a joint heir with Jesus. We are promised to be begotten of the Spirit as he was, have it come to dwell upon us causing us to walk in all of God’s ways. 

    Jesus is the Son of Man returning in the glory of the Father to reward us with that same glory, which was THE WORD from the beginning. Jesus will sit on his father David’s throne according to the flesh where he is a Son of God according to the Spirit, as he had been raised from the dead having received that Spirit ACCORDING TO THE WORD that was WITH the Father from the beginning. He has a name above all names as God anointed him with gladness above his brothers and sisters, he sits on his father David’s throne as a king of kings and a lord of lords. YHVH had made all things including dominions and thrones by reason of and for him. Without the WORD of the new beginning, the new heaven and earth which Jesus is firstborn and head over, nothing that YHVH says that He had made by Himself, would have been made.

    #866470
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    Christ Jesus =  the ANOINTED Jesus.

    WHEN was Jesus ANOINTED? At the river Jordan of course!

    What was he anointed with? The Spirit of YHVH without measure of course!

    What did that make him exist as? In the form of YHVH of course

    Me

    ONE

    Who, being in the form of God,

    TWO

    thought it was not a flight on par with God:
    [7] But no reputation was made,

    THREE

    and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    FOUR

    [8] And being found fashionable as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, unto the death of the cross.

    JODI ONE THING AFTER THE OTHER

    #866471
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    We know that which was THE WORD that was WITH YHVH from the beginning, eternal life for the flesh creature that YHVH had made, human beings

    The Word was WITH God and all things were made through him.

    If Jesus is the name he had as a man, the Word of God is the name he had when he had glory with the Father before the cosmos. Today he has both names. You have already admitted that he has both names.

    He came in the flesh. And he is the eternal life that was with the Father. Through him, we too can have eternal life.

    This is written in scripture. We don’t buy your Ordinary Jesus Brigade doctrine.

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