John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,841 through 20,860 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866472
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Contradiction?

    Are you saying the verse teaches us that the anointed Jesus wasn’t actually a man, but he came only in the “fashion” of a man?

    We are clearly taught repeatedly that he was and still is a MAN. 

    Now how did this anointed man find himself in the fashion of other men?

    fashion – schema – the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc

    Phil 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Berean, Jesus was numbered with transgressors, not only did God make him to be SIN for us, when he went to the cross being spit upon , mocked and beaten, the people saw him as a transgressor. He was found in the fashion of all men, he humbled himself, he was not deserving of death, but he remained an obedient servant. 

    When Jesus was anointed and sent out becoming the promised seed of Abraham (the anointed), even though he was in the form of God having the Spirit not by measure, he found himself as a weak mortal human who could be tempted and like all men, he feared death. 

    #866473
    Berean
    Participant

    BEFORE HE BECAME A MAN HE WAS

    THE SON OF GOD WHO WAS GOD

    And THE WORD BECAME FLESH…John 1

    and was made in the likeness of men:…..(Phippians 2)

     

    #866474
    Berean
    Participant

     

    King James Bible
    For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

    JODI

    WHEN THE SON OF GOD WAS RICH ?

    WHEN HE BECAME POOR. ?(that ye through his poverty might be rich.)

     

    #866475
    Jodi
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    Jesus has many names, he is called also The Lamb of God, does that make him literally a lamb? No, that is totally absurd, nonsensical. 

    The lamb represents something that symbolizes Christ, as the lamb chosen for sacrifice was without spot or blemish Jesus was like the lamb, for he too was without spot or blemish. 

    Jesus being given the name The Word of God, does not make him literally existing as someone else’s utterance, that is totally absurd, nonsensical. 

    13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    The Word represents something that symbolizes Christ, as the Word was eternal life, Jesus by his blood became the source of eternal salvation (Hebrews 5:9).  

    And what do we have,

    YHVH promised eternal life before the world was. Titus 1:2

    Eternal life was WITH the Father. 1 John 1:2

    YHVH declared from the beginning that a man would come and execute that purpose, eternal salvation. Isaiah 46

    This man was handed over by YHVH’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. Acts 2:23

     

    #866476
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus has many names, he is called also The Lamb of God, does that make him literally a lamb? No, that is totally absurd, nonsensical.

    Not sure it specifically says that his name is the Lamb of God. Likely a title. But even if it was, then yes he is the Lamb of God. And he is the Word of God. Simple.

    We know for sure that his name is Jesus (Yeshua or some other variant) and his name is The Word of God as you have previously stated.

    He is Jesus. He is the Word of God. He is the Lamb of God.

    No one here is making the case that he is an attribute of God in that he is the logos within God.

    Remember that he is the full expression of God. He is expressed. He is of God. From God. Next to God. Son of God. Word of God. Lamb of God.

    Get it now? He is the Word of God. Case closed.

    #866477
    Jodi
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    In the beginning was The Word (Eternal Life) and the Word (Eternal Life) was With God, and the Word (Eternal Life) was God, GOD IS LIFE, His Spirit is LIFE because of righteousness.

    John 1 is about the Anointing of Jesus, the Spirit coming upon him, him being called to righteousness where God promised to hold his hand and keep him to make him for a covenant for the people, a light even to the Gentiles. God’s WORD of Isaiah 11, 42, 61 made true in the flesh.

    That covenant is him shedding his blood to become the source for eternal salvation, which was God’s deliberate plan from the beginning. As he was anointed and sent to preach of his death and a promise of eternal life, his own rejected him.

    In Jesus was LIFE because the SPIRIT was in him, making him for to be a light to all people. 

    #866478
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The below scriptures teach us that YHVH’s WORD before the world began was a promise of eternal life unto mankind, where all flesh would come to worship Him as they inhabit the earth. We are also taught that YHVH SAITH that He HIMSELF formed the earth and made it.

    You snuck in the word ‘promise’. Similarly, the serpent snuck in the words ‘you shall not die’ when speaking to Eve. And they didn’t die. But they did later on.

    #866480
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Jesus’s name means YHVH is salvation.

    YHVH’s WORD promised from the beginning was salvation unto Eternal Life.

    YHVH’s WORD promised from the beginning was the shedding of Jesus’s blood for him to be made our source for eternal salvation.

    So it couldn’t be more perfect for Jesus to be given another name to be called that fits perfectly with his given name, The Word of God.

    #866481
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak THE WORD OF GOD to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

    Paul spoke THE WORD OF GOD, he spoke of Jesus being made the source of eternal salvation. Both THE WORD of eternal salvation and THE SOURCE to receive THE WORD was declared from the beginning.

    #866485
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

    ME: The below scriptures teach us that YHVH’s WORD before the world began was a promise of eternal life unto mankind, where all flesh would come to worship Him as they inhabit the earth. We are also taught that YHVH SAITH that He HIMSELF formed the earth and made it.

    YOU: You snuck in the word ‘promise’. Similarly, the serpent snuck in the words ‘you shall not die’ when speaking to Eve. And they didn’t die. But they did later on.

    ME:  Proclaimer, I gave you this passage in that same post.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, PROMISED before the world began; 

    I snuck in no such thing, you make your tongue as sharp as a serpent’s, the poison of vipers is on your lips.

    #866501
    Berean
    Participant

    For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.(2Cor.8:9)

    JODI

    WHEN THE SON OF GOD WAS RICH ?

    WHEN HE BECAME POOR. ?(that ye through his poverty might be rich.)

     

    #866503
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    TO all…..Jesus was rich,  because of all the Glory that was promised him, from the foundation of the earth,  he never used that promise to him , for his own personal benifit while on this earth.  But he humbled himself and even though being the promised king of kings and great wealth, he took on the role of a servant. That scripture has nothing to do with any past wealth “existence” he had, because he did not exist before his birth on this earth, except in the plan and will of God.

    You people never tire in trying to move Jesus away from his brothers and sisters.   All who make Jesus out to be different in his humanity, then the rest of humanity, are servants  , of  SATAN . that is exactly what he wants you to do. Move Jesus away from the rest of us human being, and make him the object of your worship as your God. 2THS2. 

    Satan want you to move Jesus away from his “only” human flesh existence, and Glorify Him as you God,  because he knows that you will be commiting “idolatry”  and  breaking the First commandment of God.  “you shall have no other God besides me” .

    You people are brave not even fearing the very words of God himself, not to even mention Jesus own words,  good luck with that, your going to need it. IMO

    Jesus said, in that day “MANY” shall come unto me and say lord in “your name”  we did these things . , but what is his answer?, “depart from me you workers of “iniquities” I know you not”. What iniquity was he talking about, which they were commiting, go read and try to understand, the “iniquity that was ‘already’ at work” at the time of the apostles,   written in “2ths2”.  The iniquity of turning a man,  (Jesus),  into a GOD.  

    For those who have eyes to see.

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #866505
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.(2Cor.8:9)

    JODI

    WHEN THE SON OF GOD WAS RICH ?

    WHEN HE BECAME POOR. ?(that ye through his poverty might be rich.)

    ME:

    Let’s compare that which you say scriptures teaches from that which I say they teach. Addressing 2 Cor 8:9.

    You want passages, including 2 Cor 8:9, to say they teach that Jesus pre-existed in the form of God where he had glory and was rich, but he humbled himself coming to earth leaving his form, glory and wealth behind for awhile to temporarily exist in the fashion of a man to die for our sins.

    What I teach is much more profound than that, 

    Jesus of Nazareth was anointed with the Spirit not by measure. YHVH had said concerning mortal man (the people that He had made and had given a spirit to walk therein), that He would give His glory to no other. Jesus was filled with grace and truth, he was filled with the powers of YHVH’s Spirit, the prophecies (WORD of God) of Isaiah 11, 42, and 61 were made true in his flesh.

    As Luke 4 tells you, Jesus left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit and he was Led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tested. He was God’s Son being led by the Spirit where the Spirit bore witness to his spirit that he was a child of God. As promised, God was going to hold his hand and keep him, direct all his ways to fulfill the covenant that frees us from our sins.

    Jesus was sent into the wilderness, he was RICH in the power of the Spirit, as he was in the form of God with that power having been given to him. As he thought it not robbery that he was equal with God having received that power, he none of the less found himself likewise in the fashion of a man, like all men he had weak mortal flesh where he could feel strong HUNGER pangs.  Jesus being 40 days in the wilderness without food HUNGERED like all men, but as he was in the form of God with God’s powers he could use those powers for his own use, he could turn stones into bread and feed himself. But Jesus did not use those powers for himself, he humbled himself and was a servant to God, only using those powers according to God’s will, never his own. 

    Instead of using his powers to make bread from stone as he hungered he quoted scripture from Moses “man cannot live on bread alone but by every word of God.” Such is exactly what Jesus did. He was a man living by the word of God. The word of God was that God was going to hold his hand and keep him. Though Jesus in the fashion of all men having weak mortal flesh, God’s word was in Jesus, God was with Jesus holding his hand and keeping him from giving into temptation. Through the Spirit upon Jesus leading him he was able to overcome the temptations of the world.

    Likewise, when Jesus went to the cross he overcame that which has held all men in bondage all their lives, the fear of death. Then too he lived by the word of God, God had promised him that he would settle him in His house and give him an eternal throne, He promised him that he would receive a portion among the great and be the man who would divide the spoil with the strong, He promised Jesus that He would anoint him above his brothers and sisters, that He would exalt him to sit at His right hand giving Jesus dominion over all the works our One True God the Father YHVH had made, including dominions and thrones. Jesus went to the cross having faith in the word of God, knowing he would be resurrected to be a king of kings and a lord of lords serving God to fulfill all of God’s will. God’s word was in Jesus, God had said that Jesus would not fail in all that He asked him to do, even dying on the cross.

    Berean, you are told that Jesus LEARNED OBEDIENCE suffering on the cross, that he was perfected by it. Jesus learned and we learn through him, that the power of YHVH’s Spirit upon man brings forth righteousness and life.

     

     

     

    #866506
    Berean
    Participant

    There is one way that seems right to a man, but the end of it are the ways of death (Proverbs 14:12)
    This is your case, Gene
    Countering the  truth  constantly,  You risks to loose eternal life.

    #866507
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Jodi

    You

    What I teach is much more profound than that, ……

    Me

    Jodi

    the words of God in your writings are lies
    that’s all …
    To deny the divinity of Jesus and believe to preach deep things, but in what blindness you are Jodi !!!! ??? it is appalling.

    #866521
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……what truth., “your truth”,   we quote scripture over and over to you, exactly what is written and even spoken by Jesus himself.

     But they find no place in you,  because you simply are not of the “truth”  , if you were of the truth you would love what we are saying.

    Berean if I were you I would be more concerned about your own salvation , and remember what it says,   “HE WHO CONDEMNS  ANOTHER, CONDEMNS “HIMSELF” ? and again, “judge not, lest you be judged by the same merits you judge others”,  And again, judge “nothing” before the time”. 

    I put my judgement in the hands of my God,  not a carnel human being, who goes about unknowingly preaching,  Satan’s “DOCTRINES OF SEPERATION” , thinking  he is serving the true God and  our lord Jesus Christ? 

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

    #866523
    Berean
    Participant

    Yes Gene you resist the Word of God and it is very sad.

    #866524
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Below I am applying scripture with scripture. Really curious as to how you’d explain that we are JOINT-HEIRS with Christ?

    Romans 8: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. …32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    Mark 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them,Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

    1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has RECEIVED from the Father the PROMISED Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 

    We are JOINT heirs with the anointed Jesus.  Jesus at the river Jordan was baptized and received the Spirit upon him without measuring, an anointing, it was a calling to righteousness where God had promised to cause him to walk in all his ways so that he would obey God, even set us at liberty going to the cross in obedience. He DIED, and was resurrected RECEIVING the PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT. He rose from the dead an heir of God, an heir of God’s Spirit, and we are JOINT heirs with him, likewise promised to receive the Spirit and walk in ALL of God’s ways. 

    Berean, Isaiah’s prophecies are not yet COMPLETED they involve a Son of Man who returns in the glory of our Father. Recall Paul’s words, Jesus’s origin is of the seed of David, he is to sit on an eternal throne according to the flesh, where he is a Son of God ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT by his resurrection from the dead. ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT he received as was PROMISED, he is a Son of God. We are to be made in his image, we are to receive of the One Spirit, we are Sons by being led by God’s Spirit, we are Sons by having the Spirit bear witness with our spirit that we are, such makes us heirs of God and JOINT heirs with the man anointed of the Spirit, JESUS. 

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 

    2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 

    Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

    Berean, the DIVINE NATURE that we partake in is from the drinking of the one cup that Jesus drinks of, the One Spirit.  The MAN Jesus has this glory of the Father. Where the Spirit is there is Life because of righteousness. When we are said to be heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ, such is us partaking along with Jesus of the divine nature, partaking of the One Spirit. 

    #866525
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    the words of God in your writings are lies

    ME: 

    Give one example?

     

    #866526
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    The topic HERE IS: WHO IS “The Word”

    Yes or no ?

    I Say THAT the bible’s answer IS :the divine Son if God  IS the ONE  WHO IS CALLED “THE WORD”

    AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

    AND THE WORD MADE FLESH…..

     

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