John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,801 through 20,820 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866413
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..Please show me where what i have said prevents Jesus from being the “head”  of the church , or  before all thing  except God the  Father.  Nothing I or Jodi have said changes that Berean nor do we imply it either. Jesus is the firstborn from mankind to be raised from the dead, and recieve eternal life, and he certanily is the head of us all.  

    If you think what I or Jodi are saying about Jesus’ humanity,  takes that position  away from Jesus, you are “greatly” mistaken. We know full well Jesus is the head of all thing in the family of God our Father.  But we also know he is “not” our  God, nor are we called to worship him as our God,  as you people do and preach,  that’s the issue here Berean, not what you mentioned in your last post. 

    The only ones preaching a “false Jesus” here, are those who preach and worship Jesus as their  God, and portray him as  a preexisting being of somekind,  that created every thing that exists.  Those are the ones preaching a false Jesus here and nearly every where in Chretsendom today. And have for the past 2000 years, that “iniquity”, has been preached by the “APOSTATE” (fallen) ,  CHURCHES. That teaching of Jesus being a GOD,   Jesus by his own mouth will destory at his return, just as 2ths2, shows , for those who have eyes to see.  

    Didn’t Jesus tell us all that the Great deception that would come would be “about him” ?,  that deception has been here for nearly 2000 years , it was starting to “infect”  the true church at the very time of the original Apostles.  Berean what Jesus said was and is true today, “wide is the way that leads to destruction, and “MANY” go in threat thereof”,  but narrow is the way that leads to life and “FEW” there be that find it” . So,  Ask YOURSELF are you with the “MANY” or the “FEW”?   Have you bought into Satan’s  big “LIE” about Jesus being a God, and do you preach and worship him as such?  not much time is left Berean,  may God, “the “only” true God”,  help you to see and understand this. 

    Peace and love to you and yours…….gene

    #866414
    Berean
    Participant

    “Berean…..Please show me where what i have said prevents Jesus from being the “head”  of the church , or  before all thing  except God the  Father.  “

    …….

    Gene

    Bible say

    he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    [18] And he is the head of the body, the church:

    he(JESUS) is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    [18] And he(JESUS) is the head of the body, the church:

     

     

    #866415
    Berean
    Participant

    Since Jesus is before all things, that makes him not a creature. okay
    And more than that the Bible tells us:
    “by him all things consist.”

    consist …

    sunistaw
    sunistao
    soon-is-tah’-o,

    sunistano soon-is-tan’-o, or sunistemi soon-is’-tay-mee from sun – sun 4862 and isthmi – histemi 2476 (including its collateral forms); to set together, i.e. (by implication) to introduce (favorably), or (figuratively) to exhibit; intransitively, to stand near, or (figuratively) to constitute: – approve, commend, consist, make, stand (with).

    2 Peter 3:5

    5

    lanqanei gar autouV touto qelontaV oti ouranoi hsan ekpalai kai gh ex udatoV kai di udatoV sunestwsa tw tou qeou logw
    3: 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

    was formed
    συνεστῶσα (synestōsa)
    Verb – Perfect Participle Active – Nominative Feminine Singular
    Strong’s Greek 4921: To place together, commend, prove, exhibit; instrans: I stand with; To be composed of, cohere.

    #866416
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..All that stuff has you mixed up brother.  THAT IS WHY I ALWAYS KEEP BRINGING YOU BACK TO WHAT JESUS HIMSELF “CLEARLY” SAID.   “this is eternal life , that they (you BEREAN) MIGHT KNOW “YOU”,  the “ONLY” TRUE God”.  There is only “ONE” TRUE GOD”., and that “ONE” “TRUE GOD”, is NOT JESUS. Why can’t you simply admit that Berean? 

    Berean you seen to have never got past that point yet. Until you do speaking to you is futile.

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    #866417
    Berean
    Participant

    You run away from the truth
    You don’t answer the verses I give you
    it is written that Jesus is BEFORE ALL THINGS ….
    WHAT ARE YOU SAYING. YOU OF THIS VERSE ???

    #866418
    Berean
    Participant

    A simple man cannot be the savior of the world and be the judge of those who will or will not go to heaven.
    GOD IS WISE AND HE GIVEN HIS OWN BEGOTTEN SON TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD

    The Eternal Father, the unchangeable One, gave His only begotten Son, tore from His bosom Him who was made in the express image of His person, and sent Him down to earth to reveal how greatly He loved mankind. ” R&H, July 9, 1895.

    #866419
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi guys.

    If you select some text and hit the quote button in the toolbar it looks like this now.

    Here is a quote

    You may need to reload the page to see it as you might have the old style sheet cached.

    #866421
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Aristides (ca. 125 A.D)

    Now the Christians trace their origin from the Lord Jesus Christ. And He is acknowledged by the Holy Spirit to be the son of the Most High God, who came down from heaven for the salvation of men.(Apology 15)

    Justin Martyr (ca. 150 A.D)

    For not only among the Greeks did the Word prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the barbarians were they condemned by the Word Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ, and in obedience to him, we not only deny that those who did such things as these are gods, but assert that they are wicked and ungodly demons, whose actions will not bear comparison with those even of men desirous of virtue. (5)…

    And when we say also that the Word, who is the firstborn of God, was brought forth without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven… (21).

    Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten. (23)…

    For next to God, we worship and love the Word who is out of the unbegotten and ineffable God, since also He became man for our sakes, that, becoming a partaker of our sufferings, He might also bring us healing. (13).

    And God, the Father of the cosmos, who is the perfect intelligence, the truth. And the Word, being His Son, came to us, having put on flesh, revealing both himself and the Father, giving to us in himself resurrection from the dead, and eternal life afterwards. And this is Jesus Christ, our Saviour and Lord. (On the Resurrection, 1).

    #866422
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Tatian (165 A.D)

    God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Word. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary basis of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone, but inasmuch as He was all powerful, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Word-power, the Word himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him. 

     

    #866423
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene (2020 AD)

    A word can not be applied to the person “quoting” them , they can only be applied to the one who gave them, Jesus gave us God the Fathers words, they were not “his” words, So how could Jesus actually be GOD THE FATHERS “WORDS” HIMSELF.

    #866424
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean…..All that stuff has you mixed up brother.  THAT IS WHY I ALWAYS KEEP BRINGING YOU BACK TO WHAT JESUS HIMSELF “CLEARLY” SAID.   “this is eternal life , that they (you BEREAN) MIGHT KNOW “YOU”,  the “ONLY” TRUE God”.  There is only “ONE” TRUE GOD”., and that “ONE” “TRUE GOD”, is NOT JESUS. Why can’t you simply admit that Berean?

    You do err in your conclusions Gene. Up to God to judge whether this is a false witness or simply a continuous lack of understanding from your part. I will try and make it simple for you Gene.

    He is the expressed image of God. Thus, while God is true, so it is that Jesus is called The Truth. God has the Word within himself as an attribute of him, but he has expressed or begotten from himself (his own nature) so that the Word was WITH God. He was with him from the beginning, even before the cosmos. As already admitted by your camp, Jesus Christ has a name, “The Word of God”, thus that is who he is just as his name is Jesus Christ and that too is who he is.

    As a matter of fact, he is the full expression of God. While the Church will reflect Christ, Jesus Christ is the full expression of God. Yes, that doesn’t make him God, it makes him OF God. And yes, we already agree that he became a man. So it seems Gene, that you have no answer left to defend your teaching apart from levelling accusations at us that miss the mark. And if you had to sum up missing the mark in one word, what would that be?

    #866429
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer,  you quote pagan writers, who taught the false teaching that Jesus “himself” is words of God”,  and dance all around to avoid this simple but clear words of Jesus himself,  “the words I am telling you are “NOT” “MY”,  words,  but the words of him who sent me.”  why not address that issue for a change instead of constantly skirting around it, why can’t you people address it?  Why treat it as if it were not even in your bibles, as you people treat so many others scriptures also.  How can you even expect to get the truth ignoring so many scriptures. 

    Jesus is “not” God’s word, no more then you or I would be his word even if we “quote” them to someone.  Proclaimer the bottom line is this, you and others here do not see the “real” Jesus,  a 100% true human from start to finish, who God the Father gave great honour too, because of his obediance and faith even to his own death,  he obeyed,  his “God”, and our God, his father,  and our Father”,  you either believe that or not, Proclaimer that’s your choice based on what is influencing you the most,  either the truth or a LIE,  taught by Satan and his “many” many, modern day servants.

    I personally don’t care what other so-called,  “church father’s ” say,  espically those  who changed the word of God, under the  influences of Plato, Socrates, and Greek false God teachings, where the orgins of the  false teachings of the “TRINITY”  came from. 

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

     

    #866431
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: I don’t see at all the LIGHT that Jesus is declared to be, is shown to pre-exist.

    I actually see the very opposite of that.

    ME: WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM A CARNALLY MINDED PERSON LIKE YOU WITH EVERY RESPECT. Now to be carnally minded is death and an enemy of God Romans 8:6-8

    YOU: Jesus is the LIGHT because he was called to righteousness,

    ME: CALLED TO JUSTICE is more appropriate, as Jesus came to JUSTIFY THE TRUTH of HIS PRE-EXISTENCE as

     The LIGHT and LIFE of all physical, John17:2. Precisely “THE WORD”

    who speaks for no use, hidden in the heart of

    ALL HUMANS, NO MATTER WHO,

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD.Rev.13:8

    Well pinpointed out in  BOTH VERSES HEREUNDER:

    John 1:4 In him was LIFE, and

    THE LIFE was THE LIGHT of men.

    John1:9 That was

    THE TRUE LIGHT,

    which ENLIGHTENS

    EVERY MAN

    that COMES

    into this world.
    NOW ANSWER JODI, WHO WAS

    THE FIRST MAN THAT EVER CAME INTO THIS WORLD?

    THAT MAN Jodi

    WAS ENLIGHTENED BY “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, and IT MEANS THAT

    JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT:

    ETERNAL LIFE and LIGHT PRECISELY IN

    ADAM’S HEART!

    Now Jodi, read hereunder enough scripture which confirms that

    Jesus is THE LIGHT and PRE-EXISTED

     

    Isaiah 42:6 I the Lord (BEFORE THE WORLD WAS)

    HAVE CALLED YOU IN JUSTICE, ( PRE-EXISTED)

    and taken thee by the hand, and

    PRESERVED thee. ( PRE-EXISTED)

    And I have given thee ( PRE-EXISTED)

    for a covenant of the people,

    for a light of the Gentiles:

    I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You,

    And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, as

    A LIGHT to the nations,

    John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was

    THE LIGHT of men.

    John 1:7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of

    THE LIGHT, that all men might believe through him.

    John 1:8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of

    THE LIGHT.

    John 1:9 That was

    THE TRUE LIGHT, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

    John 3:19 And this is the judgment: because

    THE LIGHT is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil.

    John 9:5 While I am in the world, I am

    THE LIGHT of the world.”

    John 12:35 Jesus therefore said to them: Yet a little while,

    THE LIGHT is among you. Walk whilst you have the light, that the darkness overtake you not. And he that walketh in darkness, knoweth not whither he goeth.

    John 12:36 Whilst you have

    THE LIGHT, believe in the light, that you may be the children of light. These things Jesus spoke; and he went away, and hid himself from them.

    John 12:46 I am come

    A LIGHT into the world; that whosoever believeth in me, may not remain in darkness.

    Luke 2:32 A LIGHT to the revelation of the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

    1 John 2:8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and

    THE TRUE LIGHT is already shining.

    Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show

     LIGHT to the people, and to the Gentiles.

    Matthew 17:2 And he was transfigured before them.

    And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866432
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Bible say

    he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    [18] And he is the head of the body, the church:

    he(JESUS) is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    [18] And he (JESUS) is the head of the body, the church:

    ME: 

    before – para ,

    here in the verse below para is translated as above,

    12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

    and the WORD BY  is EN meaning, in, by, with

    he (Jesus) is ABOVE all things, and IN him all things consist.

    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn FROM the dead; that in all things he might have first place.

    If Jesus is above all things that makes him of course then head of the church, which is exactly what Paul is telling you.

    “he” is considered the BEGINNING as it relates to the resurrection, as it relates to the Eternal Kingdom. This BEGINNING is the very END that YHVH had declared in His WORD from the beginning. Paul DOES NOT SPEAK concerning Jesus according to two beginnings, just ONE BEGINNING.

    All that is said concerning the “he” or “who” in Colossians 1 is a reference to the MAN raised from the dead who went to sit at YHVH’s right hand as was PROMISED having RECEIVED dominion over all the works that YHVH had created as was also PROMISED. Paul is ONLY speaking in Colossians 1 as it relates to THIS BEGINNING, WHY he says in verse 13-14, ” hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood”.

    Berean you seem to ignore that “he” being FIRST was according to a PROMISE.

    Psam 89:27 And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

    YHVH’s WORD/PROMISE was to make for Himself a firstborn and MAKE this firstborn ABOVE all things, even exalt him ABOVE all of the kings of the earth. King David knew this, that is why he called his own son his lord and had died with his flesh having hope that he would be translated into his son’s kingdom. David knew his son would die but his flesh would not be allowed to see decay, instead it would see eternal life. He knew his son would be YHVH’s firstborn and he would received the rights of a firstborn son, David knew he’d even go to sit at YHVH’s right hand. 

    Berean, Jesus didn’t preach that he was some pre-existing being, or a god, he preached saying “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    Berean, YHVH’s WORD from the beginning that He said would be accomplished was that a MAN would execute YHVH’s purpose for His creation, THIS IS WHY WE ARE TOLD THAT “in him all things consist” that “without him nothing would have been made that was made”.

    Furthermore, as JESUS HAD KNOWN FULL WELL that he was the MAN of YHVH’s own spoken WORD from the beginning promised to receive glory, he prior to his death declared his own FAITH in this word asking for this word to be fulfilled in him.

    7 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

    Berean, YHVH made man in His own image, and the man who had shed his blood at the time Paul wrote to the Colossians, Paul knew this man was up in heaven sitting at YHVH’s right hand existing in the glory of our Father, existing in the invisible image of our  Father.

     

     

    #866434
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    he (Jesus) is ABOVE all things, and IN him all things consist.

    Me

    ONE God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and thro:ugh all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:6

    #866435
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    he (Jesus) is ABOVE all things, and IN him all things consist.

    Me

    ONE God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and thro:ugh all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:6

    God the Father IS above all….

    And Jésus IS well BEFORE ALL THINGS LIKE KINGS JAMES BIBLE SAY

     

     

    #866436
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi, Gene,

    YOU: Carmel…..The seed Jesus was sowing was not himself,  no scripture says Jesus is the seed of God, he sowed the seed, but a sower of seed is never himself the seed.

    Gene, first and foremost

    WHEN IT COMES TO THE SPIRITUAL DOCTRINE I’M AFRAID YOU AND Jodi with every respect  ARE SIMPLY

    DEAD!

    ESPECIALLY WHEN THIS DOCTRINE IT IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO

    “THE WORD”

    DESPITE THE FACT THAT SCRIPTURE MADE IT ABSOLUTE TRUTH THAT

    “THE WORD” IS JESUS 

    THE SON

    OF MAN,

    CAN YOU SEE WHAT IS THE TRUTH HIDDEN BEHIND the title SON of man, Gene?

    NEVER, NEVER, and NEVER!

    Now read the pure truth:

    Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this:

    The seed is “THE WORD” of God. and

    “THE WORD” is JESUS, the SON of man!

    MORE SCRIPTURES

    Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and

    to his seed.

    He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many,

    but rather to one, “And to your seed,”

    that is, Christ.

    John12:23But Jesus answered them, saying:

    The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. (ON HIS DEATH)

    24Amen, amen I say to you, unless

    the grain of wheat

    falling into the ground dies, 25Itself remaineth alone.

    But if it dies, it bringeth forth much fruit.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #866437
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You just continue to ignore points directly from scriptures that I give you. Will it ever stop?

    Jesus is the MAN whom YHVH our one true God THE FATHER MADE into His firstborn and MADE him ABOVE/HEAD overall things. His inheritance upon becoming YHVH’s firstborn was to receive dominion over that which YHVH had made ALONE, by Himself. Berean, the dominion that is GIVEN to Jesus is dominion that is under the direction of THE FATHER, he is a SERVANT to our One True God. He does nothing of himself, he isn’t going to even judge us by his own eyes and ears, but you make this son of Jesse into God, it’s ridiculous. 

    You seem to just want to ignore the fact that YHVH had a purpose for His creation, there was to be a new beginning YHVH declared from the beginning. YHVH had made all things for His creation at the beginning to reach THIS new beginning, without this new beginning nothing would have been made that was made. 

    Berean, you don’t put simple two and two together. You don’t see the whole picture given, instead you see false images.

    YHVH’s WORD from the beginning was that a man would come and this man would RECEIVE YHVH’s glory, IT  WAS A PROMISE, this man would save the world from their sins, and this man would come to sit at YHVH’s right hand, and this man would likewise sit on an eternal throne in the flesh on earth as PROMISED.

    How does this passage below fit with your doctrine?…it doesn’t, as so many other passages don’t either.

    Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will GIVE him a portion among the great,and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    How about this passage,

    “What I’m about to tell you is true,” Jesus said to them. “When all things are made new, the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne. Then you who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones. You will judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

    Jesus being raised from the dead having eternal life was NEW, it was the glory YHVH had promised unto mankind before the world even was. People witnessed Jesus’s resurrection, which made them believe that YHVH’s WORD was in fact true. We are JOINT heirs with Jesus and some of his brethren will even assist this man in judging the world. 

    #866438
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……The seed Jesus was talking about is the seed of the kingdom of God, which he went about sowing in people. He was not talking about seed as relating to his linage from Abraham, as what Paul was talking about.

    Man are you ever screwed up in you thinking,  what makes you think you can move contexts of thing written to fit your own “spicial” thinking, when things arn’t even hinted at what you say.  Do you realize how ignorant those false asumptions of your makes you out to be?

    You have bought into Satan’s “LIES” ,  hook line and sinker,  may God help you Carmel. 

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    #866440
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    [38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    For I came down from heaven,…

     

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