John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,721 through 20,740 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #866265
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Jesus came from heaven sent by God the Father; he himself is the LIVING BREAD FROM HEAVEN …
    HE WAS WITH GOD AND HE WAS GOD …. THIS IS THE SIMPLE TRUTH.
    Read John 6:62
    What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

    ME: 

    Like I said you don’t apply what Jesus said in John 17,

    Jesus tells you that he was not of this world, as the apostles were not of this world. Jesus tells you as they were sent, he was sent. Jesus and the apostles were sent from God, down from heaven. Jesus and the apostles were sanctified in God’s word and the word was to bring forth salvation and eternal life to those who believed in that word. They spoke heavenly words not earthly words as they were not of the earth they were of heaven.   

    Berean, didn’t Jesus’s word contain his resurrection and our resurrection unto eternal life?

    Didn’t God promise eternal life before the world began?

    When Jesus was raised from the dead and people witnessed him, touched his flesh, they saw the BREAD FROM HEAVEN, they saw God’s WORD made true in the flesh. They saw the BREAD OF LIFE in seeing Jesus. They saw the word of eternal life made true in him. We are partakers of that bread we are told, we are partakers of eternal life.

    Where the Spirit is there is righteousness and life!

    When the Son of Man Jesus was raised from the dead having his flesh not see decay ascending up to life on earth where he was before, he received the promised Holy Spirit. We too are promised to have our graves opened where we are given a new heart of flesh and the Holy Spirit that causes our righteousness, to be able to walk in all of God’s ways. We are thus joint heirs with Christ being heirs of God’s Spirit. As Jesus inherited it according to a promise when he was raised from the dead we likewise inherit the Spirit according to a promise. As Jesus said, we are to drink of the same cup that he drinks of, and that which we drink is the One Spirit.  

     

    #866266
    Jodi
    Participant

    Carmel,

    The given scripture is the truth, and with any given scripture the concluded understanding/meaning of it must align with all other scriptures. Many scriptures are not understood properly unless you have a firm knowledge of other scriptures and directly apply them.

    You believe the bible holds hidden meanings and you quote scripture plugging in those hidden meanings and declare the hidden meaning as the truth.  I can’t work with that.  Thus I have zero interest in reading your posts and responding to them.

     

     

     

    #866268
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    The subject IS WHO IS” the Word”?

    Thé Bible write That it’ IS TH LORD JESUS CHRIST

    Amen

    ALLELOUIA

     

    #866272
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    God is very detailed in His given word, the truth is in the details of His word and He gave us a very long book.

    Details applied to details establishes for us His clear message.

    I give you posts of scriptures containing CRUCIAL DETAILS and will also repeat exactly those details.

    “Long posts” equate to 2-3 minutes of your time to read, good grief! It takes about 4,800 minutes for the average person to merely read the bible, and a whole lot more time re-reading to come to understand it.

    You reply by saying you won’t bother to read them as you claim that “the devil is in the details”.

    You like to defend your beliefs only within certain parameters so to keep your doctrine safe, that’s what I see.

    Not quite Jodi. See how I am replying to your post with an answer. Why? Because you made a single point and I was able to respond in kind. Easy. When you raise multiple points, believe me, it takes a long response to fully cover it. Longer than the teaching itself. Because you can state multiple points each with a few sentences, but it requires paragraphs of information at times on responding to each point. Who can be bothered doing that everyday on one person for years? There are not only more important things in life like family and leading people to the kingdom, but there are also other people here to respond to. Surely, I do not want to hear God rebuke me for not being wise with the precious time he gave me. And why would you want to be that stumbling block anyway?

    #866273
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Yes his name is called The Word of God. 

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Also let’s consider that Jesus’ given name means YHVH is salvation.

    YHVH’s word that He Himself spoke regarding salvation,

    Isaiah 45:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the PROMISE of eternal inheritance. 

    Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Berean,

    Through Jesus YHVH fulfilled His WORD OF SALVATION. 

    The given name of Jesus means YHVH IS SALVATION.

    YHVH’S WORD THAT HE SPOKE FROM THE BEGINNING was not only a covenant of salvation, but also HIS WORD THAT HE SPOKE FROM THE BEGINNING WAS OF A MAN WHO WOULD EXECUTE IT THROUGH HIS BLOOD.

    Such is WHY we read, “he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.”

    Berean, but you don’t want to apply any of these scriptures. You want us to believe that Jesus pre-existed as someone else’s spoken word, which is hands down one of the most absurd nonsensical ideas I have ever heard. 

    In the beginning was the WORD (eternal life), and the WORD (eternal life) was with God to be fulfilled in us, and the WORD (eternal life) is God, God is life.

    Not only in the beginning was YHVH’s word of eternal life with Him to be fulfilled, also YHVH’S word that a man would come and execute this word of eternal life, with Him in the beginning.

     

    #866274
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Also, those scriptures you quote are always about his humanity. I don’t have any issue with them so it is pointless quoting them. The contention here is not those scriptures but the other scriptures that you never quote and generally ignore.

    6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!

    #866275
    Berean
    Participant

    Christ is, on the one hand, the perfect representation of God(Hebrews 1:3), and on the other, a perfect example of sinless humanity(Hebrews 4:15). Thus, Divinity and humanity were combined.

    #866276
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Hi Berean,

    Yes his name is called The Word of God.

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Good. Now lets do a little test.

    Jesus is his name. Okay Yeshua or whatever your preference is. If a person says are you Jesus? He says ‘yes’.

    The Word of God is his name as you clearly state.

    ‘Are you the Word of God?”

    Answer goes here Jodi: ____________.

    #866277
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @berean

    Christ is, on the one hand, the perfect representation of God(Hebrews 1:3), and on the other, a perfect example of sinless humanity(Hebrews 4:15). Thus, Divinity and humanity were combined.

    Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross.…

    Could it be that he had divine nature, let that go (emptied himself) to take on human nature and now he is back in the glory he had with the Father (divine nature and privilege). And because of what he did, we can now look forward to a new body like the one he has.

    by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature,

    There is a physical body. So there is also a spiritual body. As the Scriptures say, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam is a life-giving spirit. The spiritual man did not come first. It was the physical man that came first; then came the spiritual. The first man came from the dust of the earth. The second man came from heaven

    And further proof.

    But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

    #866278
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen!

    #866279
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer,  could it be? Answer no, Jesus “existed” on this earth as a human being with that devine nature “in” him  while hec walked this earth,  or Don’t you believe what he said?,  the son of man can do “nothing” of himself, the Father who is in him, “he” doth the works. Jesus had the devine nature “in” him “via”  the Anointing Spirit of God. 

    What that scripture is saying is, even though he did exist with the devine nature, which was working “with him, he never tried to “steal Glory ” from God the Father by letting people think he was the one doing all those miracles.  Instead he took on the status of a servant, because that is exactly what he was and is, even though he is a Son of God, just as Moses also was a servant of God, so was Jesus.  Did not Moses tell us that?

    The LORD shall raise up a prophet like unto me, unto him shall you heed.  “All” true prophets are “servants ‘ of God.  Jesus took on exactly what he was a servant of God, other scriptures say that same thing also.

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

    #866280
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross.…

    I believe this over and above what you teach gene.

    Existed in the form of God, emptied himself, became human (came in the flesh), humbled himself, and died for us.

    But it didn’t stop there. God raised him up and now he is with God in the glory he had before the cosmos.

    This is all written but you and Jodi think this is all irrelevant because he was a man, a prophet, and an offspring.

    Like I have said before, you cherry pick the humanity scriptures and ignore the origin scriptures.

    While you and Jodi are free to choose your beliefs, we are also free to believe all the scriptures.

    #866281
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Jodi said his name is the Word of God. We also know his name is Jesus.

    Thus, is he Jesus?.

    Yes.

    Is he the Word of God?

    Yes.

    We can move on now. Your teacher has confirmed it.

    #866287
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    Hi Berean,

    Yes his name is called The Word of God.

    Me

    John Say

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    The Word was with God

    17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    The Son existed Before the World was, he was with God

    Jodi  Is not it true ?

    #866288
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer, please tell us what reason would God have to morph a “preexisting being” and pass him off as a “real” human being.  GIVE US ONE REASON HE WOULD EVEN THINK TO DO THAT.  How would that prove anything to mankind?

    Why isn’t it clear to you people God was dealing with mankind, to show us how a “real” human being who was “exactly” in “every” way like we are , without exception,  to show all humanity how a human being can become perfect in every way with God.   What example to anyone  human would it be to send a “preexisting” perfect being to earth , what would that deminstrate to us?, nothing!. 

    Why can’t you see,  Satan wants us to think Jesus was different then we are, why?,  because we then will not actually believe we can achieve the exact same thing he did , with the help of God . Satan’s “doctrines of Seperation” is exactly what he wants us all to believe.  HE is the one who is behind turning the “image” (how we view Jesus) , into a God.  Why?, because that would cause us to “seperate” our true “idenity” with him as another plain human being who shows us all how to have the exact same relationship with God the Father As he does.  

    GOD THE FATHER, is no respector of persons, what he did for Jesus he will do for us all, who have the exact same Faith in him as “the MAN Jesus.  Jodi and I have tirelessly trying to show you all this from scripture after scripture , but you fail to understand it. 

    Jesus is simply another Adam (human being)  who Is for mankind the ultimate perfection of mankind.  He is what God the Father has in mind for us all, he is our true “human” example of what we all can become, and it’s not one ounce different then he is. 

    If you can’t see this clearly then Satan has control over you, by his “doctrines of Seperation”. 

    Proclaimer if you want this site to really take off , it is needful for you to come to see and understand this clearly, IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #866295
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Proclaimer: Existed in the form of God, emptied himself, became human (came in the flesh), humbled himself, and died for us.

    ME: 

    Hebrews 1::3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, WHEN he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 

    Deut 18: 18 I will RAISE them up a Prophet FROM AMONG their BRETHREN, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    Isaiah 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee FOR A LIGHT to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 

    Matthew 12: 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

    2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Isaiah 53:12… because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 

    John 12:44 Jesus cried and said,He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 

    John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    Proclaimer: Existed in the form of God, emptied himself, became human (came in the flesh), humbled himself, and died for us.

    ME:

    Out of brethren Jesus was chosen to receive God’s Spirit without measure to be for a light, sent out into the world being in the form of God, the “brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person”.  

    Though he received the Spirit and power of God and though it not robbery to be equal to God he declared that he could do nothing of himself.

    He sought not his own will but to only obey the Father’s will, taking on the form of a servant.

    He was made in the likeness of man, for even though he knew no sin, God made him to be sin for us.

    He was found in fashion as a man when he was numbered with transgressors.

    Though he was not worthy of death he humbled himself being obedient unto death, even death of the cross.

    #866306
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: The given scripture is the truth,

    ME: John1:1 IN THE BEGINNING

    was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 

    The same was 

    IN THE BEGINNING

    with God. 

    3All things were made BY

    HIM:

    and WITHOUT

    HIM 

    was made nothing that was made. 

     4In HIM

    was life, and the life was the light of men.

    ME:1:14  And THE WORD was made flesh,

    and dwelt among us,

    (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

     15John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying:

    This was 

    HE

    OF WHOM I SPOKE:

    HE

    that shall come after me,

    is preferred before me: (In the beginning was “THE WORD”)

    because he was before me. (In the beginning was “THE WORD”)

    John1:18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son

    WHO IS 

    in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man

    WHO IS

    in heaven.

    John6:62 If then you shall see

    the Son of man ascend up

    WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?

    John17:24 Father, I will that where

    I AM

    they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which

    THOU HAST GIVEN ME,

    because thou hast loved me

    before the creation of the world.

    YOU: and with any given scripture the concluded understanding/meaning of it

    must align with all other scriptures.

    ME: Answer Jodi, AREN’T THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES particularly ALIGNED?

    YOU: Many scriptures are not understood properly ( LIKE YOU UNDERSTOOD ALL THE ABOVE)

    unless you have

    a firm knowledge of other scriptures (ME: SUBJECT TO WHAT KIND AND LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE ONE POSSESSES)

    and directly apply them.

     

    YOU: You believe the bible holds hidden meanings

     

     

    Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said: I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because

    thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and

    hast revealed them to the little ones.

    Matthew 13:11Who answered and said to them:

    Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven:

    but to them it is not given.

    Jodi, as an example, hereunder I only produced a particular scripture for you to read.

    Luke 12:49I am come to cast fire on the earth;

    and what will I, but that it be kindled? 

    50And I have a baptism wherewith I am to be baptized:

    and how am I straitened until it be accomplished? 

    51Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth?

    I tell you, no; but separation. 

    52For there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided: three against two, and two against three. 

    53The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against his father,

    the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother,

    the mother in law against her daughter in law, and

    the daughter in law against her mother in law.

     

    Now Jodi, answer: ACCORDING TO YOU again:

    ALWAYS SUBJECT TO YOUR KIND OF KNOWLEDGE, 

    ISN’T THERE ANY HIDDEN MEANING IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE?

    ARE THE TITLES SYMBOLICAL, or 

    ACTUAL or

    BOTH?

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866316
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    I am putting this post on this thread as it’s more appropriate, replying to your straw man argument comment.

    This is the argument I put forth here and now okay.

    The Son of Man Jesus was IN YHVH’s word from the beginning, not Jesus pre-existed in the beginning, nor did he pre-exist as YHVH’s word in the beginning. 

    I believe your stance is that all three above are true, and I would argue that only the first is true.

    YHVH’s word declared from the beginning, that was then given to the prophets throughout time, became true in the flesh. 

    Without the word becoming true in the flesh, nothing would have been made that was made. 

     

    #866317
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  MY ANSWER, THE SON OF JESSE ACCORDING TO ISAIAH 11, 42, 45, AND 61.

    Hi Jodi, that is correct. So then would you agree that “the light” to whom John came as a witness is one and the same as “the son of Jesse”? Because scripture says that John came to testify about Jesus, and scripture also says that John came to testify about the light, right? So either John came to testify about two completely different things, or the one thing he came as a witness to was called both “Jesus” and “the light”.  Let’s examine…

    John 1

    6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

    Okay, we agree that the one John came to testify about is Jesus – but we also must agree that John came to testify about “the light” – because it’s right there clear as day in scripture, right? So what else is said about this “light”?

    9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

    Who or what was “coming into the world”?  We know it’s “the light” from verses 4 and 5 – but could this “light” also be “Jesus”?

    10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

    Now we know that the world was made through this “light”, right?  Because the pronoun refers back to “the true light” from verse 9, right?  But is “the true light” actually Jesus?

    11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

    So “the true light” came to a world that was made through him and belonged to him, but the world which belonged to him didn’t accept him as their rightful master, right? Here’s the clincher…

    12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    Do you see it yet?  The pronoun “HIS name” is still referring back to “the true light” that came into a world that was actually made through him, but didn’t accept him.  The same “light” to whom John the Baptizer came as a witness… ie: “the son of Jesse” according to you.  And that leaves only one question…

    What is the one name given in all of scripture by which we can be saved?

    Acts 4:11-12

    This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

    So you see, “the light” to whom John came as a witness IS “the son of Jesse” – who bears the only name under heaven by which we can be saved by believing in that name.

    John 3

    18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

    I hope you can see it now.  The “light” that came into the world IS the one who bears the only name by which we can be saved, “Jesus”.  And since the light IS Jesus, then it is Jesus who was with God in the beginning, and Jesus through whom the world was created, and Jesus who emptied himself of his lofty position in the heavens to be made as a human being – making him not only the offspring of David… but also the ROOT of David – just as he told us.

     

     

    #866318
    Jodi
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    YOU:

    The same strawman argument. Yes he was a man. Move on. This argument is missing the target everytime. It is why I do not read your posts because it is an essay with the same message, “Jesus was a man”. Get over it. No one disagrees. Lol.

    ME: 

    Proclaimer, what are you saying??

    Concerning Jesus, Gene and I only work to prove that Jesus is a man?

    or

    Concerning Jesus, Gene and I say that he did not pre-exist and our only work to prove it has been by giving scripture that he’s a man?

    For your information, BOTH are ridiculously false according to the CONTENT of our many posts.

    You think my posts just repeat an argument where my point is to prove that Jesus was in fact a man, so you don’t read them. That’s quite hysterical!

    or

    You think my posts to prove Jesus didn’t pre-exist is based upon proving he was a man,  so you don’t read them. That is likewise quite hysterical!

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