John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,741 through 20,760 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #866319
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike…..Please read what Jodi wrote in detail’

    The light that enlightens,   “every” man that comes into the world” is “the Spirit of God”…

    But as you can see from my previous post to Jodi, this “light” has the only name by which we can become true children of God.  What is the name of this light, Gene?

    #866320
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….the light was the Spirit of God, it is what enlightens “every man”,  this light came to be fully placed on The “man” Jesus . 

     

    The fulness of the light was “in” Jesus, remember when Jesus said this , “the Father is “in” me?  And Jesus by his Faith was “in” the Father,  Yes GOD WAS IN THIS WORLD THIS WORLD BEING “IN” The “man” Jesus.   But none of that ever made the “man” Jesus  the God that was “in” him.  No more then if God is in us would make us a God. 

    God is a Spirit and can “indwell” all of us.  We now have the earnest of his Spirit, Jesus existed with the fulness of God the Father “in” him.

    It was not Jesus who said , “destory this temple” and in three days I (God) shall raise it up”, that was God the Father speaking through his mouth directly. 

    What the people did not realize was that God came unto his own people, being “in” Jesus, and they did not realize it,  but again none of that made Jesus the God that was “in” him doing the works.  Get it? That is exactly why Jesus said he could do “nothing of himself”. Why because he was “NOT” the God that was “IN” him doing all the miracles that was being done.

    Neither did Jesus raise himself from the dead either, scripture plainly tells us it was God the Father that raised him from the dead in several places in our texts.

    That is why it say , “if the Spirit of him that raise CHRIST JESUS, from the “dead”, dwell “in” you (like it did him) he (God) who raised Jesus from the dead shall “ALSO” quicken (bring back to life) your mortal (dead) Bodies. 

    So when Jesus said he could do “nothing” of “or (from)  himself ”  he certainly was not lying.

    The problem is many, “most,” try to make the God the Father who was “in” Jesus doing the works, even speaking through him,  out to be  Jesus himself, this  is the source of all false teachings  reguarding Jesus.  Once you start to see God the Father as a  Spirit being , that “indwelled Jesus”  and his creation, all of it, then you start getting the true picture. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene.

     

     

     

    #866321
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    YOU:

    But do you believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh?

    ME:

    Jesus was anointed and sent, thus Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    Though we were not given his name in prophecy, YHVH’s word was that a son of Jesse would be anointed with the Spirit and then sent out into the world to be a savior through preaching God’s word and fulfilling God’s word by dying on the cross. . 

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

    The Gospels all declare YHVH’s word made true in the flesh,

    Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

    Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 declaring YHVH’s word was made true in him.

    Jesus who was anointed and sent, is thus Jesus Christ who came in the flesh.

    #866322
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    The succinct version for Jodi and Gene…

    1. The Light was with God in the beginning.
    2. The world was created through The Light.
    3. The Light came into the world that was created through him, but the world, as a whole, didn’t recognize or accept him.
    4. But all of those out of the world who did accept The Light – those who believed in the name of The Light – were given the right to attain eternal salvation as real children of God.

    Who is The Light?

    John 8:12
    Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world.”

    John 9:5

    “While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

    Compare…

    John 1:9

    The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world

     

    John 12:46
    “I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in Me should remain in darkness.”

    Any questions?

     

    #866323
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  Carmel, Carmel, Carmel, you hold one of the most non biblical, nonsensical doctrines I have ever seen.

    Agreed.

    #866324
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Berean,

    For you to have any credibility in an accusation you need to quote something that I have said and show specifically how it is twisted against God’s word.

    I accept all of your scriptures, Jodi.  They teach of how God’s ultimate christ (out of God’s many christs in the scriptures) will come from the seed of David.  That is true.  That Jesus is both the seed AND the root of David is also true.  You teach beautifully on the seed part.  You seem to close your eyes to the root part.  I’m trying to open your eyes to that part – and I don’t have to reject one iota of the seed part to do it.

    #866325
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike….the light was the Spirit of God, it is what enlightens “every man”,  this light came to be fully placed on The “man” Jesus . 

    But the light itself has a NAME according to John 1:12, right?

    Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God…

    What is the name of this light, Gene?

    #866326
    Ed J
    Participant

    Good job Mike,

    Glad you are back!

    _______________
    Your brother
    in Christ
    Ed J

    #866327
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    YOU:

    But do you believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh?
    Do you believe that he is the Word of God?
    Do you believe that the Word became flesh?
    I do not think you do.
    You say his name is Jesus and the Word of God, yet you say he is Jesus, but NOT the Word of God.
    More holes than a sieve.

    ME: 

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh, Jesus was anointed and sent exactly according to YHVH’s word, thus the word became flesh. 

    I don’t believe that an anointed son of God was sent to earth were he became a half-breed sent to be our savior.

    I believe the child born given the name Jesus, which means YHVH is salvation, was anointed with the Spirit at around the age of 30 for the purpose to be sent to be our savior which he did through preaching YHVH’s word and obeying YHVH’s word.

    This anointed (Christ) Jesus preached to save us through receiving the Spirit without measure.

    This anointed (Christ) Jesus went to the cross because of the Spirit that was upon him for it was directing all his ways.

     

     

     

    #866328
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Good intervention

     

    #866329
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Jesus is the word of YHVH made flesh in more ways than one.

    His conception through a virgin birth, his anointing, him going to the cross suffering to bring forth our reconciliation, his resurrection as a firstborn of many with eternal life, his ascension to heaven to sit at YHVH’s right hand, is ALL YHVH’s word that was made true in the flesh.

    There is more of the word to be fulfilled in the man of flesh Jesus, including the promise that he as the Son of Man in the glory of our Father is going to return to earth as the ordained promised son of Jesse who will judge the quick and the dead. Also that he is according to the flesh going to sit on his father David’s throne.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #866330
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    There is more of the word to be fulfilled in the man of flesh Jesus, including the promise that he as the Son of Man in the glory of our Father is going to return to earth as the ordained promised son of Jesse who will judge the quick and the dead. Also that he is according to the flesh going to sit on his father David’s throne.

    Me

    To be judge of the quik AND the dead OF ALL the World from the biginning if the, Jésus must omniscient That IS to Say God….

     

    #866331
    Berean
    Participant

    To be judge of the quik AND the dead OF ALL the World from the biginning of the world Jésus must omniscient That IS to Say God….

    #866332
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Yes his name is called The Word of God.

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

    Is he Jesus? Y /N

    Is he The Word of God? Y /N

    #866333
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jodi and Gene, I don’t think I got an answer from you guys. If so, could you reply with the post number?

    Here it is again.

    Who was the first being to be with God?

    Would that being be important compared with following beings?

    Would that being be a firstborn?

    I’m betting you guys will dodge these questions.

    #866334
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed: Good job Mike,

    Glad you are back!

     

    Berean:  Mike

    Good intervention

    Thanks fellas!  (Well, I know Eddy is a fella.  I’m not sure about Berean. 😉)

     

    #866335
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    John Say

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    The Word was with God

    17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    The Son existed Before the World was, he was with God

    Jodi  Is not it true ?

    ME: 

    No, those passages do not teach that the Son existed before the world was. The Son was IN God’s word before the world was. 

    I like to apply John 1 and John 17 to the below passages, which teach us something else from that which you conclude.

    Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

    Jesus, upon being anointed with the Spirit, was sent out into the world to preach the above WORD of eternal life. He preached about his resurrection unto life as well as our resurrection unto life. He preached that his Father was our Father and his God was our God, and that as he followed the will of the Father, we in order to see the kingdom, also needed to do the will of the Father.  He taught that as he was baptized and drank of the cup of the One Spirit we likewise would. 

    Jesus was also sent to fulfill the WORD of eternal life, not just preach it.

    Not only did he die setting us free from the penalty of death so that we could be raised to inherit God’s Spirit when he returns, but he himself was raised we are told no longer to return to corruption, raised in power, in glory, made incorruptible, where he received the PROMISED Holy Spirit.  Jesus preached that we would follow him in the regeneration, new birth, and Paul taught that Jesus was our forerunner who entered, and how we are joint heirs of God with him. 

    Which brings us to the below passages,

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was WITH the Father, and was manifested unto us.

    Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

    1 Corinthians 15:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 

    Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Seeing Jesus raised from the dead was to give us faith in God’s word from the beginning, eternal life is true.  That which was from the beginning, the word of eternal life, was made true in Jesus, they saw that life with their own eyes, they touched that life, and knew it would be their life too, that the would be JOINT HEIRS WITH HIM.

    Isaiah 46 teaches us that not only WITH the Father from the beginning was the WORD of salvation unto eternal life, but likewise WITH the Father was the WORD of the man who would execute it, where God likewise promised that Jesus would receive a portion among the great and get to divide the spoil among the strong. 

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    Berean, Jesus does the WORK of the Father because he was anointed with His Spirit and sent to do so. He did so in our Father’s name, giving our Father the GLORY. God would then give Jesus the glory that God had promised before the world was, eternal life, as well as His promise to give him the glory of making him a king of kings and a lord of lords receiving dominon over all the works that YHVH had made by Himself. 

    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with (para/of/from) thee before the world was. 

    Berean, Jesus received the glory that was WITH/OF the Father from the beginning in His WORD. The Son of Man Jesus, was not ignorant to the promises God had made concerning him. He taught of himself according to prophecy before he died and after he was resurrected, he taught he was the Son of Man with glory and honor given dominion overall the earth, made a firstborn higher than the kings of the earth, he taught he was the Son of Man who would ascend to sit at God’s right hand.

    Berean, FROM the beginning God’s word was eternal life, as well as the promise that of the fruit of David’s loins according to the flesh he would raise up Christ to sit on his father David’s throne, where he would be a Son of God according to the Spirit of which he received also according to a promise upon his resurrection from the dead. Where the Spirit is there is righteousness and life, man made and existing in God’s image, where he inhabits the earth for all eternity, which is the reason as to why God made all things in the first place. 

    In the beginning was the word (eternal life), and the word (eternal life) was with God (just as 1 John 1 says), and the word (eternal life) was God, for God is life, and God’s Spirit is righteousness and life. Also with God in the beginning was His word of the man who would fulfill His word, where all things were made by reason of him, and without him nothing would have been made that was made, as it is by his blood all thing are reconciled, as it is by his blood we are justified from all things.

    #866336
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  Jesus Christ came in the flesh, Jesus was anointed and sent exactly according to YHVH’s word, thus the word became flesh. 

    Cyrus came in the flesh.  Cyrus was anointed and sent exactly according to YHVH’s word too. (Isaiah 1:1-7)  Did the word become flesh when Cyrus was born too?

    #866337
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Mike
    We disagree about the Son “begotten in eternity past” …. you say “He was created.”
    But there is even more serious than that … and that does not make us enemies …. 🙂

    #866338
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    Jodi

    3
    panta di autou egeneto kai cwriV autou egeneto oude en o gegonen
    1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

     

    cwriV
    choris
    kho-rece’
    adverb from cwra – chora 5561; at a space, i.e. separately or apart from (often as preposition):–beside, by itself, without.

     

    without him was not any thing made that was made.

Viewing 20 posts - 20,741 through 20,760 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account