John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,661 through 20,680 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866122
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: NO Mike, CREATURES LIKE ANGELS,

    ARE NOT DIVINE.

     

    2 Peter 1:4

    Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    #866123
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike
    Participating in the divine nature is now, and it means being in communion with God through Jesus Christ, receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit daily. It has nothing to do with becoming divine, not at all …

    #866125
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hebrews 2:14

    Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil…

    Jesus “partook” of flesh and blood.  Would you say that has nothing to do with him “becoming flesh and blood”?  If not, then neither can you make the argument above.

    #866126
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Mike,

    YOU: John the Baptizer came as a witness to WHO? What is your answer please?

    ME: 

    John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

    My answer, the son of Jesse according to Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61.

     

    #866127
    Jodi
    Participant

    Mike, please consider the follow passages,

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Jesus quotes Isaiah 61, Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 

    John 12:44 Jesus cried and said,He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 

    John 1:6… was a prophecy from Isaiah fulfilled, as many other parts of John 1 is prophecy fulfilled, 

    Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD’S hand double for all her sins. 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. 6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

    1 John 1: 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Mike, people beheld the glory of God’s word of prophecy made true in the flesh, Jesse’s son begotten of God’s Spirit without measure where he then became a LIGHT not only through preaching the word of God, not only through setting us at liberty, but also because the word that God had promised before the world even began, eternal life, was made true in him.

    Jesus preached the resurrection and eternal life unto mankind, he then became that word of life when he himself was resurrected as a firstborn of many brethren.

    #866128
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased…1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,…14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about…18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    Acts 10:36 THE WORD which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 THAT WORD, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 HOW GOD ANNOINTED Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

    Zacharias gave the same prophecy that Isaiah gave us, which was fulfilled we read In Luke 3 and 4. Such IS God’s WORD made true in the flesh and then the people beheld his glory beginning in Galilee. 

    APPLY the above to John 1:14 PLEASE,

    14 And THE WORD was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    THE WORD (PROPHECY) that was made true in the flesh, 

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    APPLY this to John 1:14 PLEASE,

    John 1:14 And THE WORD was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son..

    Folks, it is absolute blindness not to apply YHVH’s WORD of prophecy from Isaiah to that of John 1:14.

    Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Jesse, received God’s GLORY, there was no other who received it, only he was begotten of the Father’s Spirit not by measure filled with grace and truth, whereby the people beheld THAT glory as he dwelt among them.

    Jesus is called the only begotten of the Father FULL of grace and truth BECAUSE he was the only one who received the glory of having the Father’s Spirit FILLED in him without measure.

    Jesus is NOT called the only begotten of THE FATHER, full of grace and truth, because he pre-existed as such but then he actually EMPTIED himself of his glory.

    #866129
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..Please read what Jodi wrote in detail’

    • The light that enlightens,   “every” man that comes into the world” is “the Spirit of God”, how does it (the Spirit of God ) enlighten us, by the “EXACT SAME WAY IT ENLIGHTENED JESUS”, not one ounce of difference.  When we as Jesus recieve the “Holy Spirit ” from God the Father into  us, we recieve “His seed” 0r “sperma ” into us and as a result from that point on we “are”  childern of God , “exactly” as Jesus what happened to “the man” Jesus, when he was “Anointed with the Holy spirit”. 
    • Jesus is and was “exactly” in “every” way, the exact same as we are, a 100% human being who came into his “only” existence “exactly the way we do.  And was born again by being IMPREGNATED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD “EXACTLY AS WE MUST BE”  In  order for us to be a true Son of God.   We as Jesus no more call anyone on earth our Father , for we (those born of the Spirit)  have only one Father who is in heaven,  so we can cry unto him “our Father”, and he hears us, just as he hears Jesus.  
    • There is “no” difference between us and Jesus our brother,  the first born from the flesh into the Family of God.  Born the “exact” same way we all must be, inorder to be called the Son’s of God.
    • That which born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit, we who now born of the Spirit have the MIND of the Spirit. Those who are of the flesh have the MIND of the flesh, they are carnel minded. But we who have the Spirit are not carnel minded, but “spritual” minded,  just the same as Jesus is.
    • Jesus said clearly , ” you must be born “again”, we who have the Spirit have been born again, we are therefore “NOW” the Sons of the “LIVING GOD” by the renewing of our minds by the working of the Spirit of God,  JUST AS JESUS WAS also,  “AFTER” HE WAS GIVEN THE  “HOLY SPIRIT” , from God the Father, at the Jordan river.  
    • Jesus under went a rebirth process exactly as we must , and a resurection exactly like his we must also experience which will “witness the redemption of our “mortal” bodies” , just like it did his.
    • All who make Jesus appear different then we are,  Are of the evil one, doing “exactly what Satan wants”. 2THS2.  

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #866131
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    John 1:4 In him was life,

    and the life was

    the light of men.

    John1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 

    7This man came for a witness,

    to give testimony of the light, (“THE WORD”, Jesus, the Son of Man)

    that all men might believe through him.

     8He was not the light,

    but was to give testimony of the light.(“THE WORD”, Jesus, the Son of Man)

    9 That(JESUS) was the true light,

    which enlighteneth

    every man (PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE, BY

    “THE WORD”JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE, AS SPIRIT, slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world.Rev.13:8)

    that cometh into this world.

    YOU: Jesus is and was “exactly” in “every” way,

    the exact same as we are,

    a 100% human being who came into his “only” existence “exactly the way we do.  And was born again by being

    IMPREGNATED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD

    EXPLAIN Gene HOW ON EARTH, as you say

    JESUS IS EXACTLY IN EVERY WAY, THE EXACT SAME AS WE ARE,

    and in the same TIME

    HE WAS OF THE HOLY GHOST?

    Micah 5:2…..and his going forth is from the beginning,

    from the days of eternity.

    ANSWER YES OR NO:

    ARE YOU Gene, OF THE HOLY GHOST?

    and your going forth is from the beginning,
    from the days of eternity?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866132
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    2Peter 1:By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these

    you may be made

    partakers of the divine nature:

    flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.

    YES MIKE, I AGREE

    made partakers of the divine nature:

    BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH  BEING

    MADE THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE FATHER’S GLORY, MADE THE FIGURE OF THE FATHER’S SUBSTANCE, and

    UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF THE FATHER’S POWER.

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

    YOU SEE MIKE,

    GOD IS ETERNAL, and

    BETWEEN GOD AND HUMANS WHO ARE NOT ETERNAL,

    ABIDES, AS A

    SPIRIT/MEDIATOR AND ETERNAL LIFE 

    JESUS, 

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS 

    THE FATHER AND PROPRIETOR OF ALL

    FLESH

    PURCHASED AND RECREATED ANEW BY HIS OWN BLOOD.

    Read Mike and discern the truth:

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh,

    that he may give eternal life

    to all whom thou hast given him. 

     

    John15:4 Abide in me, and I in you.

    As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

    5I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing.

    6If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and

    cast him into the fire, and he burneth. 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866135
    Ed J
    Participant

    They’re actually preaching Joseph is Jesus’ biological father

    Edj….Wrong

    Hi Gene,

    Well Jodi sure is; and I don’t see you correcting her.
    Instead I see you refusing to disagree with her on anything.

    Peace and love to you and yours……..Ed J

    #866141
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj…..Jodi is the most scripturally accurate person here, beyond a doubt,  she quotes “direct scriptures” backing up what she believes and I also believe. My question to you and others here is why don’t you address those scriptures we ““directly quote” right from your own bibles, but you people will not address them. Why is that Edj?   Do you have a problem making what you preach fit those written scriptures we quote to you? 

    But then again you also believe in free wills , so you have no “spritual” guidance  in you, that you would except , because you would rather have you “own” mind guide you,  did you ever think that is why you bounce all over the place, not able to put scriptures together,  you had rat h e be a lose cannon following the dictates of your own mind, without any influence from God , Jesus, or anyone else, because you do everything by the dictates of your own socalled “freewill” mind. So you are subject to this scripture, there is way that “seems” right to a man , but the end thereof, is sin and death.  While those of God, believe , “God works “in” us , “both to will” and do of “his” good pleasure”. Edj that is how we know what we are saying,  and back it up with the written scriptures.  You people on the other hand bounce around like a fish out of water, no soundness is expressed in what you are saying, not to even mention scriptures that you haven’t slanted to say what in fact they are not saying. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #866144
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Edj…..Jodi is the most scripturally accurate person here, beyond a doubt,  she quotes “direct scriptures”

    She cherry picks scripture. Only quotes the humanity of Jesus. While we agree he was a man, both of you will argue against the scriptures that you never quote.

    You need to encompass the full understanding and stop denying this man’s true origin.

    6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!

    #866145
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You can’t fight light with darkness. Thy word is a lamp.

    #866147
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    YOU: She cherry picks scripture

    ME: 

    Fact, more than once you have made a point to say that you do not bother to read my posts. 

    Let’s be even more clear here,

    Fact, you have stated that you don’t bother to read particularly my posts that are long, wherein those posts were actually long because they contained multiple scriptures. 

    You have the actual audacity on this Christian forum to accuse me of “cherry picking” scripture when you yourself have “cherry picked” my own posts, not bothering to read the ones filled with scripture. 

    Proclaimer, at this point I see you as a MAN WHO IS RIPE WITH INJUSTICE. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #866148
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj…..Can you tell us what does the “nature of God mean to you”?  Is that a different nature then  those who have the Spirit of God in them have?

    Tell us in what way could Jesus have “robbed” God to make himself “equal” to him.  Jesus could never had made himself actually “equal” to God, but he could have made it appear he was,  by allowing the people that saw the miracles God was doing for him, to think he was the one doing them. Then he  would be stealing glory from God the Father, as Moses did at the  waters of MERIBA. Moses broke Faith with God there and  was not  allowed to enter the promise land as a result.  Jesus never thought to even try to make himself “to be equal with God”.  That is what that verse is really saying, Jesus never ever even tried to make himself out to be equal with God, why? Because he knew he was not equal to God, and  he did not want anyone to think he was either.  

    All who have the “nature” of God in them by having  the Holy Spirit, are not now or ever will be “equal” with God.  That same thing applies to Jesus also or anyone God the Father uses in his work. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    #866149
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ….Jodi is right it is you who are doing the cherry picking here not Her or I,  we Read your posts, and the others also, except for Carmel, because he does cherry picks words out of scriptures and tries to force them to say what infact they are not even hinting at.  When I see that I do admit I just skim lightly those posts.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #866150
    Berean
    Participant

    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    THE HOLY THING…..

    Why Luk wrote THAT…..???

    Maybe you answer Gene or Jodie ?

    #866151
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi,

    Gene,

    YOU

    Can you tell us what does the “nature of God mean to you”?

    Is that a different nature then  those who have the Spirit of God in them have?

    WHY DON’T YOU OR Jodi, 

    explain:

    WHAT THE NATURE OF GOD MEANS TO YOU, BOTH

    STAGNATED CARNALLY MINDED PERSONS!

    NOW ATTENTION Gene here 

    comes the pure truth

    ABOUT THE NATURE OF GOD WHICH ONLY 

    JESUS POSSESSED! YOU KNOW WHY Gene? 

    DEFINITELY YOU KNOW,

    THE FACT THAT BOTH YOU AND Jodi 

    NEVER PRODUCED THIS SCRIPTURE HEREUNDER AND ALL THE SCRIPTURE WHICH 

    CONTRADICTS AND REVEALS 

    YOUR LIES!

    I TELL YOU WHY JESUS IS

    THE ONLY HUMAN BEING ON EARTH 

    ONE OF A KIND

    WHO WAS/ IS

    THE RIGHTNESS OF THE GLORY OF THE FATHER.

    THE FIGURE OF THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER.

    UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF THE POWER OF THE FATHER.

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

    NOW READ THE SCRIPTURES HEREUNDER:

    ABOUT THE NATURE OF GOD WHICH ONLY

    JESUS POSSESSED ON EARTH.

    John 1:4 IN HIM WAS LIFE,

    GOD IS THE LIFE SOURCE OF ALL Gene and 

    JESUS IS ETERNAL LIFE,

    WHO RECEIVED FROM THE FATHER

    BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

     

    John5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life:

    so the Son also giveth life

    TO WHOM HE WILL.

    OK GENE, ATTENTION NOW:

    EVEN TO HIMSELF FROM ALL THE DEAD

    SPIRITUALLY DEAD!

    22For neither doth the Father judge any man,

     

    but hath given all judgment to the Son.

    Gene are you reading this scripture it simply

    MADE IT CLEAR TO YOU AND Jodi 

    WHAT THE NATURE OF GOD IS, KEEP ON READING:

    23That all men may honour the Son,

    as they honour the Father.

    WOW. WOW, and  WOW! Gene

    ISN’T THE ABOVE FEW WORDS SUFFICIENT FOR YOU TO MAKE AWARE 

    WHAT THE NATURE OF GOD JESUS POSSESSED. MORE SCRIPTURE Gene,

     

    He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

    The above Gene is DIRECTED TO YOU and Jodi, I really feel MORE THAN SORRY FOR YOU BOTH,

    LOOKING FORWARD FACING JESUS, INCE YOU CONSIDER 

    JESUS EXACTLY IN ALL WAYS

    HA , HA , HA, 

    LIKE YOU BOTH! 

    STAGNATED CARNALLY MINDED PERSONS

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    24Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.

    25Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is,

    when the dead shall hear the voice of

    the Son of God,(1)

    and they that hear shall live.

     26For as the Father hath life in himself, (HERE IT COES, MAKE SURE THAT YOU

    CHEW THE WORDS OR ELSE THEY

    STRANGLE YOU:

     so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself:

    THE PURE NATURE OF GOD

    ONLY JESUS POSSESSED, NOW ATTENTION FOR THIS ONE Gene

    27And he hath given him power to do judgment, because HE IS( ALSO)

    THE SON OF MAN (2)

    OK Gene?

    JESUS IS BOTH

    THE SON OF GOD and

    THE SON OF MAN.

    SIMPLY THE NATURE OF GOD!

    Jeremih 32:27 Behold

    I am the Lord

    the GOD of all FLESH:

    shall anything be hard for me?

    more to come 

    it ‘s more than enough for you

    carnally minded person! WITH EVERY RESPECT!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #866157
    Ed J
    Participant

    Edj…..Can you tell us what does the “nature of God mean to you”?
    Is that a different nature then those who have the Spirit of God in them have?

    Hi Gene,

    I believe you are essentially asking only one question here, as I do not believe you really
    want a full and complete explanatory answer as to what “the nature of God” means to me…

    That would mean your question really is:

    Is the “nature of God” a different nature then those who have the Spirit of God in them? “Yes” or “No” ?

    And the answer to that question is obviously: “No”

    If you are essentially asking a different question altogether,
    than please specify, and I will certainly address it.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #866158
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Answering y/n questions can in fact lead to reconciliation
    And that is something non-truth seekers avoid like the plague.
    T8 knows this very well, that is why he started “The Hot Seat” here!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

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