John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,681 through 20,700 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866165
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj…..Good at least you do seem to believe the “nature ” of God is also given to those who have the Spirit of God “in” them, just like Jesus did. So if we say those who have the Spirit of God “in” them also have the “nature” of God , then what makes you people  think that Jesus who existed with the “nature” of God in him, is any different then those who “now” exist with the same nature of God (spirit)  ‘in” them also? 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

     

     

    #866166
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj….. So the lesson is this, those who have “now” the nature of God “in” them,  should “also” like Jesus , humble themselves and take on the form of a servant, just like Jesus did. IS THAT not the lesson being given there? 

    So what makes people think that scripture , Phil 2:6 ,  some how makes Jesus any different then his brothers and sisters, who have the “earnest” of the Spirit of God “in” them also.

    Now some believe that word Form simply means the shape of God, but we also are made in the “Shape” of God,  dosen’t  it clearly say , “in the “image” of God made he them male and female made he them. So either way you take it , it still does not show Jesus any different then we are right? 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #866167
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..I understand you believe in God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit., you are a true “trinitarian”,  we all know you do not believe Jesus is a true Son of Man, even though he said it over 80 times, you still drive wedges between him and us, doing “exactly” what Satan wants you to do,  and the “many” are with you, going down the wide way that leads to destruction. Why not stop following Satan’s teachings and start to truley believe what Jesus said,   “the is eternal life , that they (you Carmel)  might know “YOU” the “ONLY”  “TRUE” GOD….” . Bottom line Carmel is if you don’t see Jesus as a 100% “real” human being , you simply do not see the “real” Jesus.  Repent Carmel. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

    #866174
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: 

    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    THE HOLY THING…..

    Why Luk wrote THAT…..???

    Maybe you answer Gene or Jodie ?

    ME:

    the word Hagios was translated into  “holy thing” in Luke 1:35

    hagios is used to reference the saints 61 times in the NT.

    Luke uses this same word in referencing the prophets, 

    Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

     

    #866175
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Let’s just go ahead an examine more closely Luke 1:68-73 and apply it to some other passages,

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

    We can apply verse 69 of this PROPHECY to another passage that gives us additional truth,  

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 

    Jesus, of the seed of the man David, came as a savior according to a promise, and he did not come until after the baptism John preached. 

    After John began preaching the baptism of repentance, Jesus came to John to also be baptized. Jesus said that he must be baptized in order to fulfill all righteousness. When he came up from the water the Spirit descended upon him, where he is said to have left the river Jordan being filled with the Spirit and led by the Spirit into the wilderness. We are then told that Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee where then fame of him began to spread all about.

    Jesus then speaks quoting Isaiah 61 saying,  “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.”

    Blessed be the Lord God of Israel who saves us through anointing the son of David with His Spirit and then sending him out into the world to be a savior.

    As the Lord God of Israel had promised unto Moses, from among brethren He raised up a prophet Jesus, and God put His words into his mouth, and those who would hear the Lord God’s words and believe in them would be saved.

     

    #866176
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

    Berean, PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME as your doctrine does not add up with that which scripture directly teaches, not only that it just makes absolutely zero sense.

    The Lord God of Israel anointed the seed of David and sent him to preach His words, and those who heard the Lord God’s words and believed in them would be saved. 

    The Lord God Israel gave prophecy regarding this seed of David, that God would anoint him, that God would raise him up among his brethren to be a prophet speaking the Lord God’s words. 

    The Lord God swore an oath to Abraham, which was a covenant regarding an anointed one of Abraham’s seed who would redeem people from the curse of the law.  

    Berean, JESUS was IN the Lord God of Israel’s WORDS that the prophets spoke that later became true. Jesus did not pre-exist as God’s word.

    How does someone possibly exist as someone else’s spoken words? Such is completely nonsensical, one of the most illogical things I have ever heard.

    The Lord God of Israel spoke ahead of time about the coming son of David, Jesus of Nazareth, not the son of David pre-existed as spoken words. 

    Berean, that which was spoken regarding this seed of Abraham and David who would be anointed and sent, had been God’s word since “the world began”. 

    Jesus was IN the Lord God of Israel’s WORD since the world began, that is a given biblical fact. 

    Likewise this is a biblical fact, the Lord God of Israel spoke words that later then became true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth. 

    The Lord God of Israel said that He would anoint the son of Jesse, and this word became true at the river Jordan upon the man of flesh, Jesus of Nazareth. 

    This Jesus of Nazareth left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit, he was filled with grace and truth (God’s word of Isaiah 11 made true in the flesh), and the people beheld his glory. He was the only mortal man to have been begotten by the Spirit without measure, then SENT to speak God’s word so that those who believed in that word would be saved.

    That which he preached was that the Spirit came upon him so that he could deliver captives.  That which he preached was of his resurrection into eternal life and our resurrection into eternal life, our Lord God of Israel’s word that He promised before the world even began.

    That which he preached was that we would be baptized with the baptism he received and that we would drink of the cup that he drank of, which that cup is the ONE SPIRIT he received at the river Jordan and then again upon rising from the dead.

    That ONE SPIRIT he drank of that we are to drink of is also said to be that which makes us Sons of God, for those who are led by that Spirit are the Sons of God.

    Jesus is NOT a Son of God because he had and does exist as some one of a kind being.

    He is a Son of God ACCORDING to the Spirit, he had been baptized receiving it, and he had been raised receiving it.

    #866177
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    The holies prophets became holies

    BY faith

    They were not holies prophets at their birth.

    Jesus was HOLY at His birth because

    He was GOD(the Word was GOD) before His birth on earth.

    In His humanity because of The HOLY Spirit and His faith,He never sin even in very young childhood.

     

    #866178
    carmel
    Participant

    He Gene,

    YOU: we all know you do not believe Jesus is a true Son of Man,

    Gene I’m afraid the problem is that for you and Jodi the TRUE term

    SON

    of

    MAN

    HAS ONLY ONE  MEANING WHICH IS

    CARNALLY.

    SINCE YOU ONLY BELIEVE  IN JESUS’ HUMANITY.

    BUT IT IS A DIFFERENT STORY WHEN YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS’DIVINITY AS WELL.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866179
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Holy means, apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness

    The child Jesus to be born was set-apart most certainly, he was the promised son of David to whom God had spoken about since the world began, to which God revealed to the fathers throughout time by His set-apart prophets. 

    When the Spirit descended upon this son of David like a dove, he was then as well set-apart from all others, being the only mortal human to have God visit him and beget him of His Spirit without measure for to save the world (God’s word of Isaiah 11, 42, and 61 made true in the flesh).

    #866180
    carmel
    Participant

    He Gene,

    YOU: Carmel…..I understand you believe in God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.,

    Gene, AREN’ T  YOU  GENE IN THE FLESH, GENE IN THE SOUL, AND GENE IN THE SPIRIT?

    YOU: we all know you do not believe Jesus is a true Son of Man,

    Gene I’m afraid the problem is that for you and Jodi the TRUE 

    SON

    of

    MAN

    HAS ONLY ONE  MEANING WHICH IS

    CARNALLY.

    SINCE YOU ONLY BELIEVE  IN JESUS’ HUMANITY.

    BUT

    A TRUE SON OF MAN.

    HAS  A DIFFERENT MEANING WHEN YOU BELIEVE ALSO IN JESUS’DIVINITY.

    THE FACT THAT JESUS SAID IT

    OVER 80 TIMES.

    YOU: you still drive wedges between him and us, doing “exactly” what Satan wants you to do,

    Matthew 1:18 Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with

    child,

    of the Holy Ghost.

    20 But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife,

    for that which is

    conceived in her,

    is of the Holy Ghost.

    NOW GENE  ANSWER:

    WITH RESPECT TO THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE,

    WHICH IS THE

    TRUE UNDERSTANDING,

    JESUS, 

    THE SON,

    OF THE HOLY GHOST, 

    OR

    JESUS, 

    ONLY 

    THE SON OF MAN.

    “exactly” what Satan wants you to do,

      and Jodi with you, going down the wide way that leads to destruction. Why not stop following Satan’s teachings and start to truly believe what Jesus said,

    AND MEANT WITH THE TERM

    SON OF MAN.

    which is an indirect reference ALSO to

    THE SON OF GOD.

    BUT YOU DON’T SEE IT! Well clear and ASSERTED BY 

    JESUS HIMSELF in

    John 5:25Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is,

    when the dead shall hear the voice of

    the Son of God,(1)

    and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself, (HERE IT GOES, MAKE SURE THAT YOU

    CHEW THE WORDS OR ELSE THEY STRANGLE YOU:)

    so he hath given the Son also to have

    life in himself: WHO ONLY GOD HAS

    THE PURE NATURE OF GOD

    THAT ONLY JESUS POSSESSED,

    NOW ATTENTION FOR THIS ONE Gene

    27And he hath given him power to do judgment, because

    HE IS( ALSO)

    THE SON OF MAN (2)

    OK, Gene?

    JESUS IS

    100% BOTH

    THE SON OF GOD and

    THE SON OF MAN.

    SIMPLY THE NATURE OF GOD!

    READ AGAIN:

    Jeremih 32:27 Behold

    I am the Lord (JESUS)

    the GOD (JESUS, THE SON, OF THE HOLY GHOST)

    of all FLESH🙁 JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD”)

    Gene, IF you don’t see Jesus as a 100% “real” human being, and

    A 100% REAL GOD, you simply do not see

    the “real” Jesus.  Repent Gene. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866183
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Jodi

    YOU: being the only mortal human

    ME: JESUS WAS NOT BORN MORTAL AS SUCH AS HUMANS ARE THROUGH SIN,

    JESUS HAD NO OPTION SINCE HE HAD TO JUSTIFY HIS TRUTH

    THROUGH DEATH, BY WICH DEATH

    HE GLORIFIED ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST John13:3-32

    GODMAN.

    JESUS AS A HUMAN BEING AND 

    UNIQUE

    HAD LIFE IN HIMSELF (ETERNAL LIFE)

    John5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, (HERE IT GOES, MAKE SURE THAT YOU

    CHEW THE WORDS OR ELSE THEY MIGHT CHOKE YOU:)

    so he hath given the Son also to have

    life in himself:

    WHO ONLY GOD HAS

     

    THE PURE NATURE OF GOD THAT

    ONLY JESUS AS MAN POSSESSED,

     

    NOW READ HEREUNDER:

    Hebrews 2:14 Therefore because the children are partakers of flesh and blood,

    he also himself in like manner( Who, being in very nature God, had no option)

    hath been partaker of the same: (simply)

    that, through death, (despite HE HAD LIFE IN HIMSELF, John 5:26)

    he might destroy him (AND JUSTIFY HIMSELF THE TRUTH and

    ETERNAL LIFE, SUPERIOR TO DEATH. DEATH BECAME LIFE)

    who had the empire of death,

    that is to say, the devil: 

     

    peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866186
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Jesus was most certainly mortal, as mortal means you are able to DIE.

    Jesus DIED, thus he was a mortal.

     

    #866188
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Jesus was most certainly mortal, as mortal means you are able to DIE.

    Jesus DIED, thus he was a mortal.

    NO Jodi,

    JESUS CAME ON EARTH SIMPLY

    TO DIE

    BUT HE WAS NOT BORN MORTAL OF THE HOLY GHOST!

    John 10:18 No man taketh it away from me: (NO ONE COULD EVER KILL JESUS, UNLESS HE HIMSELF 

    PERMITTED IT)

    Luke 4:29 And they rose up and thrust him out of the city; (HOW MANY WERE THEY?) and they brought him to the brow of the hill, whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

    30But he passing through the midst of them, went his way. (WHAT HAPPENED WITH JESUS’ BODY?)

    but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down:

    JESUS HAD POWER TO DIE, ONLY BECAUSE HE OPTED TO DO SO DESPITE

    DIVINE, THE SON OF GOD, FOR THE SAKE OF

    TRUTH,  JUSTICE AND!

    FOR THE LOVE OF THE FATHER, AS HE WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO

    ACHIEVE ALL BY HIMSELF!

    EXCEPT IN JESUS!

    YOU: you are able to DIE.

    YES, BY ALL MEANS, SIMPLY COMMIT A SUICIDE, BUT

    HUMANS LIKE YOU AND ME NEED NOTHING SPECIAL OR POWER, 

    ONLY A MERE PILL! BUT

    BECAUSE OF THE SIN IN ADAM, THEY SIMPLY DIE, WHETHER THEY WANT TO OR NOT!

    MARK 16:18 They shall take up serpents;

    and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them:

    they shall lay their hands upon the sick, and they shall recover.

    OK Jodi,

    DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DID TO JOHN THE EVANGELIST AND THOUSANDS OF SAINTS  IN ORDER TO KILL THEM AND THEY ALL FAILED?

    THEY ONLY DIED WHEN GOD ALLOWED IT.

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866189
    Jodi
    Participant

    Carmel, Carmel, Carmel, you hold one of the most non biblical, nonsensical doctrines I have ever seen.

    Honestly I have at this point zero interest in conversing with you.

    You are stating things I have already called you out on, shown direct scripture to prove what you say is totally absurd.

    I am not going to bother to do it again, as I do not see the slightest ability in you that holds any level of reasoning, to which I could then be able to possibly reach.

    #866190
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    I repeat

    “The holies prophets became holies

    BY faith

    They were not holies prophets at their birth.

    Jesus was HOLY at His birth because

    He was GOD(the Word was GOD) before His birth on earth.

    In His humanity because of The HOLY Spirit and His faith,He never sin even in his very young childhood.”

     

    #866192
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To those  people who try to seperate Jesus from our exactness, by saying he was “devine” he had the nature of God in him. So that makes him different then we are. so let’s see what your bible says about that.  

    2 Pe 1:4…..”whereby are given “unto us”, exceeding great and precious promises: that by theses ye might be “partakers” of the “DEVINE NATURE”, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust? ” 

    John 4:17….Herein is “our love” made “perfect”,  that we may have boldness in the day of judgement: because as he is, so are we in this world.

    So it seem those who have the Spirit of God in them “also” as Jesus,  have  the “devine nature”,  like Jesus. 

    Just another problem for those who preach SATAN’S “DOCTRINES OF SEPERATION”.  Always trying to make Jesus appear different then  we are. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

     

    #866193
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I will give it to you again, “holy” means set-apart, apartness, seperateness. 

    Jesus was born to be anointed with the Spirit not by measure, born to be a savior of the world, born according to the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God to be slain to justify us from all things (where without that justification through this man nothing would have been made that was made in the first place), born to be raised from the dead and receive a PORTION from among the great to then divide this spoil with the strong, born to be a man ordained to judge the quick and the dead (not by his own eyes and ears mind you), born to be the Son of Man who would put all enemies under foot, born to be the Son of Man who would ascend to sit at God’s right hand, born to be the Son of Man who returns to earth in the glory of our Father to bring peace and righteousness to all the earth, born to be an eternal king sitting on his father David’s throne according to the flesh being a Son of God according to the Spirit of which he received upon him when he was raised from the dead, he can most certainly be called a HOLY CHILD – a child set-apart by our heavenly Father our One True God, the Lord God of Israel, set-apart as the seed of David who would fulfill all of our heavenly Father’s will. 

    He was not Holy -set-apart because he pre-existed.

    He was a human child who “grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.”

    When Jesus was about 30 years old our One True God THE FATHER, the Lord God of Israel, made HIS WORD that HE had SPOKEN to the prophet Isaiah TRUE IN THE FLESH. As the Lord God said that He was going to anoint (Mashach/Chrio) the son of Jesse making him the anointed (Mashiyach/Christos) so to fulfill all of God’s will that He had declared since the beginning, such an anointing is exactly what God did. 

    The people then beheld this man’s glory, a man through the Spirit filled with grace and truth where beginning in Galilee fame spread of him throughout the region as he had the power/authority of God’s Word, able to raise the dead even through it. He was the only begotten, a Son ACCORDING to the Spirit that was upon him, a Son as that Spirit led him in all ways for the purpose to fulfill all of God’s will that God had purposed from the beginning, the purpose as to why our One True God the Father, the Lord God of Israel, had creating all things ALONE, BY HIMSELF, in the first place, to bring mankind into His own image, for God did not make earth in vain He made it to be inhabited.

     

     

     

    #866194
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean and Proclaimer,

    Mashiyach/Christos – anointed, anointed one
    of the Messiah, Messianic prince
    of the king of Israel
    of the high priest of Israel
    of Cyrus
    of the patriarchs as anointed kings

    Mashiyach/Christos word origin Mashach/Chrio – to anoint

    You DO NOT BECOME a Mashiyach/Christos without Mashach/Chrio. 

    1 Samuel 2:10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

    Berean and Proclaimer, it’s NOT BECAUSE this son of Jesse pre-existed as an anointed one, it’s because God ANOINTED THIS SON OF JESSE. 

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. 15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. 16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

     

    #866195
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean and Proclaimer,

    Please read applying my previous post,

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. 

    Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 

    #866196
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean,  Jodi’s above posts  to you are “exactly right”,  read it, study it, think about it,  you have , “the plain truth”,  handed to you on a platter, brother. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

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