John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,581 through 20,600 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #864709
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…..“perfect”.  I am so grateful  you do understand these things, an evident token of the Spirit of Truth abiding “in” you, continue trusting in GOD the Father like Jesus did, and his “spirit of truth”  will reveal more and more unto you. 

    You have much to offer Jodi, offer it as God our father reveals it unto you, through the spirit of truth that is “in” you,  it is our testomeny both to God the Father and our Brother Jesus, our lord,  “but better”,  our “brother”, who the Father has placed to over us to  Shepherd us all.

    It also seem Edj, is also comming around, he has come to see that Jesus himself is “not the word of God,  “himself”  but an anointed man who gave us the “words” given him “by” God, his father and our father, his God and our God.   He has taken the “big step”,  of breaking the chain of false teachings imposed on nearly all Christanity today, by false teachers the servants of the devil. May God continue to show him truth. 

    Pray for T8 also that God will help him come to a better understanding,  he does a great service here for us all. He also  believes Jesus is not GOD, that I give him to his credit.

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………….gene  

     

    #864716
    Ed J
    Participant

    LU…….,
    /
    Jesus is called the word of God , not because he is the words of God himself, but because God the Father gives him the words to tell us, or don’t you truly believe what he said, “the words I am telling you are not “my” words, but the words of him that sent me”.
    /
    Peace and love to you all and yours. ……….gene

    Gene,

    No-where is Jesus ever called “The Word” of God in Scripture.
    If you have a specific place please show it. Instead it is merely
    inferred by people who don’t understand the bible as a whole.

    “The Word” is God’s HolySpirit who grows and multiplies in us.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #864718
    Ed J
    Participant

    (1)It also seem Edj, is also comming around, he has come to see that Jesus himself is “not the word of God, “himself” but an anointed man who gave us the “words” given him “by” God, his father and our father, his God and our God.
    /
    (2)He has taken the “big step”, of breaking the chain of false teachings imposed on nearly all Christanity today, by false teachers the servants of the devil. May God continue to show him truth.

    Hi Gene,

    1) I have been telling you that since day 1 that I joined this site here.

    2) Don’t delude yourself. After all you don’t believe you even have a “Free Will”.
    Without one, how can you possibly believe you can convince anyone of anything anyway?

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #864719
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Ed J,

    Below is the passage that folks connect to John 1:1 and equate Jesus to be “the Word”.

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    This is why Gene spoke to LU about how Jesus has been given many names/titles, making the point that as he is called the Lamb of God, that doesn’t make him literally a lamb, just as Jesus being called the Word of God does not literally make him The Word.

     

     

    #864720
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Jodi,

    YOU: There was NO Son that was SENT until

    after the baptism John preached.

     

    Jodi, ACCORDING TO YOU JESUS WAS SENT

    INTO THIS WORLD ON HIS BAPTISM RIGHT?

    WHICH FOR YOU IT WAS ALSO

    HIS ARRIVAL INTO THE WORLD TO PREACH HIS GOSPEL!

     

    Jodi, IF YOU HAPPEN TO BE SENT ON MARS TODAY, 2020, AND YOU ARRIVE IN MARS SAY IN 2025

    DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU WERE SENT ON MARS ON 2025, AS WELL? or IN ACTUAL FACT YOU 

    ARRIVED ON 2025!

    ANSWER, IF ACCORDING TO YOU JESUS WAS SENT ON HIS BAPTISM,

    WHICH IN ACTUAL FACT WAS HIS ARRIVAL TO START HIS MISSION,

    CAN YOU DETERMINE THE PRECISE MOMENT 

    WHEN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS, THE SON  OF MAN WAS IN

    THE TRUTH SENT?

    NOW JUST TO REFRESH YOUR CARNAL MINDED MENTALITY, READ THE SCRIPTURES HEREUNDER:

    Rev.13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in

    the book of life of the Lamb which was slain from the beginning of the world.

    John1:29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him; and he saith:

    Behold the Lamb of God.( Jodi, can God be HIS OWN LAMB? Definitely not)

    Behold him who taketh away

    the sin of the world. ( can God take away THE SIN OF THE WORLD? Definitely not.

     GOD THE  FATHER, Jodi, CANNOT DO ALL THINGS BY HIMSELF, regarding redemption! CANNOT BE

    OUR SAVIOUR! UNLESS JESUS IS IN ANYWAY GOD!)

     John1:14 And the Word(GOD) was made flesh

    and dwelt among us (and we saw

    his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father),

    full of grace and truth. 15John beareth witness of him and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after

    me is preferred before me: (IN WHAT WAY Jodi, John was also a SON OF ABRAHAM AND DAVID, but definitely of earthly FLESH, LIKE ABRAHAM, and DAVID were.

    BUT JESUS WAS NOT OF THE EARTH, carry on reading)

    because he was before me. (John, the ANGEL OF GOD, was SENT from God! AFTER Jesus was slain like a lamb…Rev.13:8. )

     Jodi, was John SENT when he started baptizing, OR BAPTIZING WAS his arrival for his mission! I wonder if you are in a position to tell me WHEN JOHN WAS SENT, that would definitely make YOUR MIND FOR THE FIRST TIME, 

    NOT CARNAL! THAT WILL BE THE DAY!

    16And of 

    HIS FULNESS we all have received: and grace for grace.

    17For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time:

    the only begotten Son (BEFORE THE WORLD WAS)

    who is (ETERNAL JESUS CHRIST)

    in the Bosom of the Father, (AND IN THE SAME TIME WHILE ON EARTH)

    he hath declared him.

    John3:16 For God so loved the world,

    as to give his only begotten Son:( JESUS CHRIST GODMAN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS,  JOHN6:62)

    that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting. 

    17For God sent not his Son into the world, ( Jodi, WHEN DID GOD SEND HIS SON?  read  Zechariah 3)

    to judge the world: but that the world may be saved

    BY HIM.( GOD THE FATHER CANNOT DO ALL BY HIMSELF unless Jesus is God.)

    18He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe is already judged: because he believeth not in

    the name of the only begotten Son of God.( Jesus, eternally the only begotten Son of God)

    John3:28 You yourselves do bear me witness that I said that I am not Christ, but that  I am sent before him.

    29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom:( JESUS Jodi, is both THE BRIDE and THE BRIDEGROOM, SAY SOMETHING IN THIS REGARD PLEASE:)

    but the friend of the bridegroom,

    who standeth and heareth Him, rejoiceth with joy because of

    the bridegroom’s voice.( WHO IS THIS BRIDEGROOM VOICE, Jodi,  let me hear YOUR CARNAL MINDED WISDOM)

    This my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30He must increase: but I must decrease.

    31He that cometh from above is above all. (From where was Jesus sent?)

    He that is of the earth, of the earth he is, and of the earth he speaketh. ( A CLEAR REFERENCE TO JOHN HIMSELF)

    He that cometh from heaven is above all. (A clear reference to “THE WORD” the Son of Man TO BE, Jesus, pre-existed as a spirit)

    And what he hath seen and heard that he testifieth:

    ( AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL: it is written in THE PRESENT PERFECT TENSE, Jesus task commenced in the past, Jodi, He pre-existed and was the protagonist in the entire process of creation, John 6:27,  precisely during the time

    WHEN HE WAS SENT, by the Father  well ASSERTED in

    Isaiah48:15 I , (God the Father) even I have spoken and CALLED HIM:(JESUS SENT)

    I HAVE BROUGHT HIM, and HIS WAY  is made PROSPEROUS.

    16Come ye near unto me, and HEAR THIS:(ATTENTION Jodi “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN is now TALKING)

    I (THE WORD”) have not spoken in secret from THE BEGINNING: 

    from the time before it was done, 

    I was there, and now the Lord God hath

    SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.(the Son of Man”THE WORD” of God, and THE SON OF GOD, The Holy Ghost, the VOICE of God)

    and no man receiveth his testimony. (not even you Jodi I’m afraid! With every respect)

    33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal

    THAT GOD IS TRUE. ( ONLY THROUGH JESUS,

    GOD IS TRUE,

    the Father ALL BY HIMSELF COULD DO NOTHING ON THIS PHYSICAL SATANIC WORLD)

     34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:(CONFIRMED ABOVE)

    for God doth not give the Spirit by measure. (CONFIRMED ABOVE)

    35The Father loveth the Son: (BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, John 17:24)

    and he hath given all things into his hand. (EVEN GODSHIP, JESUS CHRIST; Notice again, present perfect tense, )

     36He that believeth in the Son hath life everlasting: ( WHERE IS THE FATHER)

    but he that believeth not the Son ( EVEN IF HE BELIEVE IN THE FATHER)

    shall not see life: but the wrath of God (SATAN) abideth on him.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #864722
    carmel
    Participant

    HI, Jodi,

    YOU: This is why Gene spoke to LU about how Jesus has been given many names/titles, making the point that as he is called the Lamb of God, that doesn’t make him literally a lamb, just as Jesus being called the Word of God does not literally make him The Word.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and effectual and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow: and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature invisible in his sight:

    but all things are naked and open to

    HIS EYES, to whom our speech is.

    DEFINITELY JESUS CHRIST

    CAN ANY OF YOU, Jodi, Edj, and Gene

    Explain

    HOW ON EARTH

    THE WORD IS LIVING AND EFFECTUAL AND SO ON IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE PLEASE?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #864723
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    There is but ONE GOD THE FATHER WHO IS ABOVE ALL, His name is YHVH and He ALONE by HIMSELF made heaven, earth, and all things.

    You can know this clearly by reading the below passages.

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

    Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    This teaches directly that Jesus is not YHVH and that he did not create heaven, earth, and man.

    Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things….

    11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    YHVH who ALONE is GOD where there is NONE ELSE, it is He that forms the light and it is He that makes Jesus for to be a light for us. When YHVH our God said “let there be light”, His word from the beginning was also of another light, a man who would come and execute YHVH’s purpose, the very reason why YHVH was creating heaven, earth, and man in the first place. YHVH would have never said “let there be light” if in His word there was not the light that would bring forth eternal life.

    Isaiah 45:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

    Jesus was sent by his God and our God, his Father and our Father ,TO BE A SERVANT a messenger of God, where he was able to speak God’s word because God’s Spirit came to rest upon him. Our ONE TRUE GOD THE FATHER’S name is YHVH, and YHVH gives HIS WORD that He ALONE is God and He ALONE created heaven, earth, and all things.

    Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Mark 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. 5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

    Jesus is not God, he is not YHVH, he lives in the image of our God YHVH, where YHVH’S Spirit is all in him, where he is a Son of God because he is led by God in all ways. We are to be joint heirs with Jesus. I do not become our God YHVH, I am to be changed to be made in the image of his Son that he might be a firstborn of many brethren, that image is that of a human who has our God YHVH’s Spirit all in.

    #864724
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    When you don’t apply the given truth you then read other scriptures with total error.

    As said before, Isaiah’s prophecies are not yet completed, and what you have is the son of Jesse who fulfills YHVH’s word through YHVH’s Spirit that is upon him directing all his ways. According to the word of God given to us by Isaiah concerning Jesus our lord, Jesus does not judge by his own eyes and ears, he judges as being appointed to the right hand of God, doing God’s will as a righteous servant.

    Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Jesus will not be alone, he will not be the only one who will have God’s Spirit to discern the thoughts and intents of people’s hearts giving them judgement.

    Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them,Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (NEW BIRTH) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

    #864725
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Ed J,

    Below is the passage that folks connect to John 1:1 and equate Jesus to be “the Word”.

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    This is why Gene spoke to LU about how Jesus has been given many names/titles, making the point that as he is called the Lamb of God, that doesn’t make him literally a lamb, just as Jesus being called the Word of God does not literally make him The Word.

    Hi Jodi,

    You want me to show you that verse instead refers to God’s HolySpirit.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #864726
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and effectual and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow: and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    CAN ANY OF YOU, Jodi, Edj, and Gene Explain HOW ON EARTH

    THE WORD IS LIVING AND EFFECTUAL AND SO ON IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE PLEASE?

    Hi Carmel,

    First get a real bible:

    “For “The Word” of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
    piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
    and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12)

    Then you can start with the correct biblical understanding:
    The word “Quick” here means: “Makes Alive”

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #864727
    Ed J
    Participant

    Asking questions is the way to learn Carmel

    #864734
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj……To answer your question,  we need to define what a WORD IS.  A word is an “utterance”  of the perceptions in your mind, which is  your life, it is an “utterance”  of  how you see  things, hence  your spirit, “cognisity” .  So words are are  as Jesus said ,  “the words I am telling you “are” spirit and life.  But remember he also  said those words were not “his words” but the words of him that sent him. 

    If a person has the Spirits of God “in” them, they will perceive things like God does, God the Father sends his Spirit into us guiding our thinking and that effwcts the way we live.  God the Father himself  is the “tree of life” , therefore whosoever has the Spirit of the Living God “in” them has God abiding “in” him.  Did not Jesus tell us the Father was “in” him.  When Jesus was anointed he recieved the fulness of all the Seven Spirits of GOD “INTO” HIM.

    We have been given the “earnest of the Spirit “into” us, “the Spirit (cognisity) of the truth, so we know the sound of the truth, by that spirit given us,   but we have not the fullness of the Spirit,  as Jesus has and had. But again none of that makes us a God, nor does it make Jesus himself a God either. We have been I believe,  “begotten” but not yet “born”  that takes place at the resurection,  Jesus was begotten when he was baptized, but not yet born of the spirit, untill he was resurected from the grave, never to die again.  He is the first human being ever born into eternal life, he has all the seven Spirits of the living God “in” him, and the seven “horn” (powers).  God the Father gives him “His” words and powers ,   to tell and show us the Fathers “will” .  Therefore we bow our knee to Jesus our lord, “unto the glory of God the Father”.

    Again a word is a “utterance” derived from the Spirit (cognisity) working “in”  your mind, therefore we are told to “let this mind be “in” us which was “in” Jesus Christ our lord”. Now if that mind of the Spirit of God,  abides “in” you,  then you are a begotten son of the Living God, just as Jesus was when he was on this earth.

    I hope this helped Edj.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

     

     

    #865036
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @berean

    Having or sharing the same nature as God (divine) does not make you God. Just the same that sharing the nature of Adam doesn’t make you Adam.

    #865147
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Ed J and All,

    YOU:No-where in Scripture is Jesus said to be “The Word”.

    ME: Correct!! He is called The Word OF GOD.

    And for very good reasons

    1. God gave HIS WORD that He would anoint the son of Jesse with His Spirit, this Word OF GOD spoken by Him was made true in the flesh, made true in Jesus of Nazareth. We can also include him being wounded and killed on the cross and his resurrection, where his flesh was not allowed to see decay.
    2. God gave HIS WORD that the one whom He would anoint He would send out and have him preach His Word, The Word of God of eternal life!
    3. God gave HIS WORD that the one whom He would anoint He would send out to fulfill God’s SPOKEN PROMISES.

    It is just ridiculous to say that Jesus exists as someone else’s spoken word, totally nonsensical by all means. 

    Jesus is CALLED The Word of God BECAUSE he represents the Word of God fulfilled in him according to many promises, because he brought to us The Word of God, and because by him he has and will continue to fulfill The Word of God. 

    #865152
    Ed J
    Participant

    Edj……
    (1)We have been I believe, “begotten” but not yet “born” that takes place at the resurection,
    (2)Jesus was begotten when he was baptized, but not yet born of the spirit, untill he was resurected from the grave, never to die again.

    1) No Gene, born and begotten mean the same thing… Jodi agrees with me, not you!

    2) No Gene, Christ was begotten of God at Bethlehem, not at the Jordan river.
    The spirit of Christ (the bread from heaven) was born in Bethlehem (the house of bread)

    Your Theology turns God’s word into spaghetti noodles, which you twist to conform to your FreeWill.

    #865153
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Ed J and All,

    YOU:No-where in Scripture is Jesus said to be “The Word”.

    ME: Correct!! He is called The Word OF GOD.

    That is false Jodi – and Gene agrees with me, not you!

    I started a number of threads to show you God’s truth, repent therefore and believe the truth

    What does Hebrews 11:3 teach us?

    What does Jeremiah 18:1,5 teach us?

    #865179
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Ed J,

    YOU:No-where in Scripture is Jesus said to be “The Word”.

    ME: Correct!! He is called The Word OF GOD.

    YOU: That is false Jodi – and Gene agrees with me, not you!

    YOU: You want me to show you that verse instead refers to God’s Holy Spirit.

    ME:

    Ed J, Revelation 19:13 is NOT speaking of the Lamb Jesus Christ???

    Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 

     

    #865180
    Jodi
    Participant

    Ed J,

    The passages you gave support exactly what I have been saying, I have used those passages myself before.

    I have spoken many times saying that Jesus does not represent The Word in John 1:1.

    I have given posts speaking of John 1:1 and Revelation 19:13 together explaining that Rev 19:13 does not equate Jesus to being The Word in John 1:1.

    The name Jesus means YHVH is salvation, that does not mean that Jesus is YHVH, just like Jesus being called The Word of God doesn’t make Jesus actually The Word or The Word of God.

    #865182
    Jodi
    Participant

    Ed J, To give further clarification of my understanding,

    YHVH our only true God the Father speaks where He declares truth, and where He speaks prophecy and promises.

    The Word of God is powerful, that which is spoken becomes true, it cannot be held back.

    Jesus was given the Word of God, he received it’s power and obeyed God’s commands in using it, “And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.”

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    When Jesus returns he has the Word of God upon him with it’s authority and power to do God’s will, which is why he is called The Word of God in Revelation 19.

     

    #865188
    Ed J
    Participant

    Jesus being called The Word of God

    Jodi,

    “The Bible” doesn’t call him that, ‘religion’ does.

    Make a note of it!

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