John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,561 through 20,580 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #864548
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……They just are unable to understand, it’s as if the true light has been denied them, so they just go all over the place, bouncing off the walls with their false teachings , blind as bats , completely denied the truth, no matter how simple and clear we make it, they just don’t get it. They say the believe Jesus but yet deny his own words, as if he didn’t even say them.  I haven’t heard any of them say  what we “quote”  Jesus saying was the truth. So I just keep saying the same thing over and over, hoping they will just acknowledge those words as truth, quoting Jesus, when he said , “that they might known you the “ONLY” TRUE GOD” ,  hopefull they could at least, get that part right. But so far no acknowledgement of those words, and another support scripture that says,  “unto us (true believers) there is but “ONE” GOD and one mediator between God and men the “MAN” Jesus “the Christ”.  

    It apsolutely amazes me that they can’t seem to get what we are “clearly” posting to them. Not so much as even one acknowledgement of the truth of those scriptures. So the way I see it if they can’t even acknowledge those simply scriptures, there simple is no light in them. Like Jesus Said , “if the light in them be darkness, how great is that darkness”, good question. 

    They are unable to deal with theses simple scriptures we “quote” them, so they just ignore them,  as if those scriptures are not even in their bibles, as if they don’t even exist.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

     

    #864550
    sonofGod
    Participant

    Please define “anti-Christ group”

    #864551
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Son of God….. anti… (against),… Christos, the (anointing, hense also, against  the anointed one, Jesus ) ,  The apostle coined that term because of the Gnostic’s were teaching that Jesus was not a man who needed to be anointed like all men do , but a PREXISTING GOD, who did not need to be anointed with anything because,  he was already  God.  So John simply called them “antichrists”,  they were changing the “image” of Jesus from a “man” into the “image” of a GOD, as taught to this very day.  They deny Jesus being a real human being, so all who believe and teach that way are in the “group” of “antichrists”. 

    The true church of God was corrupted almost at the very start,  Paul prophesied about this in, 2ths2, …..  For those who have eyes to see.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #864552
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    Regarding this post:

    I (LU) wrote:

    You said: ”ADONAI” refers to the ALMIGHTY GOD, a person named YEHWEH, OR YEHOVAH.

    In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name by which he shall be called: Yahweh our righteousness.

    Who is called “Yahweh our righteousness” here, Gene?

    So Gene, according to your response, the one who is called “Yahweh our Righteous” Is the Almighty God, correct? Is that what you are saying??

     

    #864553
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Antichrist = denying Jesus Christ came in the flesh or denying that he is the Son of God. Two doctrines do this:

    1. The Trinity teaches that Jesus is God and God came in the flesh. It does away with him being the true Son and makes him God instead of His son.
    2. Saying that Jesus is a man only denies his origin as the Word and Son that God created all things through.

    The truth is simple. God has a son. God made him both Lord and Christ. He is the Word that became flesh. He is now in the glory that he had before he came to Earth. God sent his son onto this world as a sacrifice for our sins. His origin is from ancient times. He was neither without origin or an origin as a new born baby. He came in the flesh.

    #864555
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Praclaimer,

    YOU: He is now in the glory that he (ME: JESUS CHRIST GODMAN) had before he came to Earth. 

    John6:62 If then you shall see

    the Son of man ascend up

    WHER HE WAS BEFORE?

    WELL SAID! Proclaimer.

    ALLELUIA

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #864556
    Ed J
    Participant

    Please define “anti-Christ group”

    Hi SonOf,

    Never heard the term before; what does it mean?

    ____________
    God bless
    ED J

    #864558
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …Jesus said clearly ” the words he was telling us was “not” his words, BUT,  the words of him who sent him. So if the words he was telling us weren’t “his” words, how do you say he “is” the word of God “himself”? 

    ARE you making Jesus out to be a thief? By saying the words he was telling us was “his” words?, and telling us that he was the word of God himself?

    Sorry I don’t buy it, God and his words are one and the same, just  as you and your words are.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #864559
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi said

    “Our heavenly Father did not forgive us of our sins through sending down God to become flesh temporarily and die for us.”

    THE BIBLE SAID

    [16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    [18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    [19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    So the heavenly Father”did not forgive us of our sins through sending down God “……

    HE DO NOT SEND DOWN GOD BUT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON….DIFFERENCE JODI.

    THE SON OF GOD IS GOD(the same nature as the Father) IN THE FLESH

    AND “THE WORD” WAS GOD…..AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH….

     

    #864560
    Berean
    Participant

    JESUS IS

    THE

     DIVINE SON OF GOD

    JOHN5[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    #864561
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Further, he emptied himself and came as a man in the flesh and humbled himself and died for our sins. In this, the son learned obedience which is not to say that he was not obedient to begin with, but that he had to trust God for everything as he was a helpless human. Now he is with the Father in the glory that he had with him before the cosmos. We can assume that he is restored back to what he was and then some and he invites us to be like him and share in divine nature and to have a body like his.

    #864562
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Bump for Gene to clarify:

    Gene,

    Regarding this post:

    I (LU) wrote:

    You said: ”ADONAI” refers to the ALMIGHTY GOD, a person named YEHWEH, OR YEHOVAH.

    In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name by which he shall be called: Yahweh our righteousness.

    Who is called “Yahweh our righteousness” here, Gene?
    So Gene, according to your response, the one who is called “Yahweh our Righteous” Is the Almighty God, correct? Is that what you are saying??

    #864563
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …Jesus said clearly ” the words he was telling us was “not” his words, BUT, the words of him who sent him. So if the words he was telling us weren’t “his” words, how do you say he “is” the word of God “himself”?

    A good reason to be called the Word of God don’t you think?

    Your understanding seems blurred when it comes to a person vs an attribute.

    For example, truth is an attribute of God, but Jesus clearly said he was the Truth.

    Does that make Jesus, God? No, what it does do is say that all truth comes from God, but that the son of God is full of truth and no lie is in him. Thus he can be called the Truth.

    Finally, this is a big clue if you have eyes to see. God created all things through his Word. God created all things through the son. Perhaps there is a clue in there for you. In fact it is so clear that one cannot have an excuse to excuse it.

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    John 1:1-3
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 He was with God in the beginning.
    3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Colossians 1:15-18
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    Not everyone believes in the true Jesus and who he was and is and is to come. But there are many Jesus’s out there for people to believe in. Only one of them is the truth and much is written about him in scripture.

    #864564
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    YOU: He is now in the glory that he (ME: JESUS CHRIST GODMAN) had before he came to Earth.

    Are you claiming to be the one?

    #864568
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..So according to you Jesus lied when he said “the words I am telling you are “NOT” my words, but the words of him that sent me”.  So you really do not believe what Jesus himself said right?.  I think before we can move on we need to know if you “truly” believe what Jesus said or not? 

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

     

    #864569
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU…….,   Jesus is not YEHWEH,  I can’t believe you don’t understand that.   Who do you think he was praying to, himself?  Jesus has many names or titles,  that are not “exactly who or what he is” example,  is Jesus truly a real  Lamb?, yet he is called the Lamb of God right?,   he is called “the rightiousness of YEHWEH “because”, he does the “will” of “our” only God, YEHWEH, who is our  “only” God and his “only” God.  Jesus is called the word of God , not because he is the words of God himself, but because God the Father gives him the words to tell us, or don’t you truly believe what he said,  “the words I am telling you are not “my” words, but the words of him that sent me”.  How much of what Jesus said do you people “really” believe, would be the real question here.  If you people “truly believed”  what Jesus said, instead of what those blind Pharisees say, then you would apsolutely know Jesus was not the word of God “himself”, no more then the angel who spoke to Moses was, no more the any prophet were either. 

    The Pharisees accused him  of breaking the Sabbath, do you believe he did?, if he did then he was a sinner right?, point is you can’t believe what those blind Pharisees say.  By Jesus saying he was the son of God, in no way meant he was saying he was equal to God as they falsely accused him of saying, Adam is also called a Son of God, do you think he is GOD also?,  in fact you people do the same thing also,   You proclaim Jesus  as GOD HIMSELF, right?

    Here is the “true” word of GOD,  “YOU shall have no other God besides me “.  question is,  do you “truly” believe God the Father and the “man” Jesus Christ our lord.  

    I will tell all of you this, no one who says, Jesus is God himself,  will be accepted by him or the Father,  ever. why? Because making Jesus your God is committing “idolatry”,  just that simple, and no “idolatry” will ever be accepted. REPENT.

    Peace and love to you all and yours. ……….gene

     

     

    #864575
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Proclaimer,

    YOU: He is now in the glory that he (ME: JESUS CHRIST GODMAN) had before he came to Earth.

    Are you claiming to be the one?

    NO, NO,

    THAT IS ONLY TO SHOW YOU, THAT THEY ARE NOT YOUR WORDS BUT

    MINE!

    I ADDED THOSE WORDS,

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #864699
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    ME: So the heavenly Father”did not forgive us of our sins through sending down God “……

    YOU: HE DO NOT SEND DOWN GOD BUT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON….DIFFERENCE JODI.

    THE SON OF GOD IS GOD(the same nature as the Father) IN THE FLESH

    AND “THE WORD” WAS GOD…..AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH….

    ME: You said that the Son of God IS GOD, so there is NO DIFFERENCE.

    I said what I said exactly because you believe as well as others that the Son of God is God, and the passage says that God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son. He who gave His Son IS GOD, and this Son you say is God, so what I said stands according to all manner of reason. 

    Berean, scripture speaks clearly against your doctrine,

    There was NO Son that was SENT until after the baptism John preached.

    Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached BEFORE HIS COMING the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that THIS IS the Son of God.

    Below is the WORD of the LORD spoken by Isaiah in chapters 11, 42, and 61 made true in the flesh of Jesus,

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath SENT ME to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    THE WORD also made true in the flesh spoken below,

    Acts 10:36 The WORD which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who WENT about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 

    Berean, God SENT JESUS out into the world upon his anointing of the Spirit, where he was begotten of that Spirit without measure, this is God’s WORD spoken by Isaiah made true in the flesh. The people beheld the glory of Jesus of Nazareth who was anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power. As said also in Luke 4, Jesus “left the river Jordan having been FILLED with the Spirit”, the Spirit that is full of grace and truth, as Jesus the son of Jesse was promised to receive the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of the LORD.

    The people beheld the glory of the anointed Jesus, the Son of Man begotten by God that CAME being sent down from heaven/directly down from God according to His will and by His WORD given in prophecy, in order to save that which was lost. 

    Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he BECAME the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    God sent Jesus upon him being begotten of God’s anointing Spirit, this is the only begotten Son who was SENT, and upon God perfecting him through suffering he gave him over unto death as a lamb that remained through testing without spot or blemish.

    That which God gave to set us free was a man who could do nothing of himself, only by God’s Spirit upon him did we have an obedient lamb that remained without spot or blemish, for God’s WORD was that He would hold this man’s hand and keep him to GIVE him for a covenant for the people.

     

    #864700
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    JESUS IS THE DIVINE SON OF GOD

    JOHN5[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    ME: Let’s look at what the text goes onto say,

    17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

    God and the Son are equal/agree together BECAUSE Jesus does that which the Father teaches him to do. They agree as one because Jesus is OBEDIENT. They agree together as one because God’s Spirit is upon Jesus directing all his ways, sending him out for him to follow not his own will but the Father’s will, to do the Father’s work. Without the Father Jesus can do nothing of himself.

    Jesus is a divine Son because God’s divine Spirit came to rest upon him without measure so that he could be sent to do God’s work.

    #864701
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    I was just reading your point to LU, about how it was the Jews false perception that Jesus had actually broke the Sabbath commandment, very good point. So I also see your point that if the author was again giving the Pharisees perception, we don’t take their perception as true.

    Now certainly if the Pharisees believed that to be a Son of God meant that you were yourself God, one would most definitely be in major error to apply that perception as holding any truth.

    One only has to keep reading to see how it is that Jesus sees himself as a Son of God, as a child who obeys his Father’s instruction, as a Son who follows not his own will but his Father’s, a Son who can do nothing of himself.

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