John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,081 through 20,100 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #862836
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: The kingdom that we are to enter is

    our heavenly Father’s kingdom, He is the King over His Kingdom.

    LIES!

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURES WE FIND IT WRITTEN AS

    THE KINGDOM OF THE FATHER?

    THERE’S ONLY ONE KINGDOM OF GOD.

    THERE’S ONLY ONE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. and that is

    THE ONLY KINGDOM OF THE SON,

    Read: Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into

    the kingdom of his dear Son:

     14In whom we have redemption through his BLOOD, (WHICH THE FATHER COULD NOT PRODUCE, EXCEPT IN JESUS AS HIS OWN!)

    even the forgiveness of sins:

    15Who is the image of the invisible God,

    the firstborn of every creature: (ON JESUS’BAPTISM, BORN OF WATER AND OF THE HOLY GHOST, FOR THE SAKE OF MANY BRETHREN, the entire human race ALL EMBODIED IN JESUS John 3:5)

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (FOR HIS ONE AND ONLY ONE KINGDOM, FOR THE FATHER TO BE ALL IN ALL ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD)

    17And he is before all things, (PRE-EXISTED AS “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN) and by him all things consist.(SEALED ETERNALLY IN CREATION John6:27)  18And he(CHRIST) is the head of the body, the church: (JESUS THE SON OF MAN)who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;(SPIRITUALLY DEAD, BOTH IN HELL AND ON EARTH, ENGRAFTED AS “THE WORD” ETERNAL LIFE IN ALL HEARTS/SOULS, SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD. James 1:21…..receive the ENGRAFTED WORD, which is able to save your souls. THE MAN BORN AGAIN, on his resurrection, John3:3 

    that in all things he might have the PRIMACY.

    19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    EMBODIED IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, and ALL IN HIM, GENUINELY HIS BRETHREN, PURIFIED BY HIS OWN BLOOD

    THAN GLORIFIED ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST THE SON OF GOD  IN

    JESUS CHRIST, GOD, AND FATHER of the Human race John20:17

    GOD OF ALL FLESH)

    (ALL FOR HIS ONE AND ONLY ONE KINGDOM)

    20And, having made peace through THE BLOOD of his cross, by him to reconcile

    all things unto himself; (NOT UNTO THE FATHER)

    by him, I say, whether they be things

    in earth or things in heaven.

    21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled (NOT THE FATHER)

    22In the body of his flesh through death,

    (WHICH THE FATHER COULD NOT ACHIEVE BY HIMSELF)

    to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #862837
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @berean

    T8

    For you who is “THE WORD”

    WHO WAS GOD…?

    God bless

    Scripture is clear. God is the Father. He is the only true God.

    Jesus is the Word of God, but Jesus is the name he took when he partook of flesh.

    Scripture tells us that three different ways who God made everything through, they are:

    1. The Word
    2. The Son
    3. Jesus Christ

    The thing is, the Bible doesn’t give us a lot of information about the beginning except to say that there was God and the Word.

    Before that, well most assume that the Word came from God and was the first to be with God.

    The Apostolic fathers taught this, these were the guys who lived shortly after the apostles. They would have been more familiar with the Greek tongue than us. Note: I have scraped quotes from them, so these are not complete texts.

    Aristides (ca. 125 A.D)

    Now the Christians trace their origin from the Lord Jesus Christ. And He is acknowledged by the Holy Spirit to be the son of the Most High God, who came down from heaven for the salvation of men.(Apology 15).

    Justin Martyr (ca. 150 A.D)

    For not only among the Greeks did the Word prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the barbarians were they condemned by the Word Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ,

    And that you will not succeed is declared by the Word, than whom, after God who begat him, we know there is no ruler more kingly and righteous.

    And when we say also that the Word, who is the firstborn of God, was brought forth without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven…

    Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten.

    And the first power after God the Father and Lord of all is the Word, who is also the Son; and of Him we will, in what follows, relate how He took flesh and became man.

    We have been taught that Christ is the firstborn of God

    And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word, who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God’s ordering all things through Him; this name itself also containing an unknown significance; as also the appellation “God” is not a name, but an opinion implanted in the nature of men of a thing that can hardly be explained. 

    For next to God, we worship and love the Word who is out of the unbegotten and ineffable God, since also He became man for our sakes, that, becoming a partaker of our sufferings, He might also bring us healing. 

    And God, the Father of the cosmos, who is the perfect intelligence, the truth. And the Word, being His Son, came to us, having put on flesh, revealing both himself and the Father, giving to us in himself resurrection from the dead, and eternal life afterwards. And this is Jesus Christ, our Saviour and Lord.

    Tatian (165 A.D)

    And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world

    For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.

    Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 175 A.D)

    God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him

    Irenaeus (ca. 185 A.D)

    saw the glory of God, and Jesus on His right hand, and exclaimed, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” 

    they preached One God, who made all things, and His Son Jesus Christ.

    their Creator, who is both God alone, and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    who believe in the One and true God, and in Jesus Christ the Son of God

    He is not Alone God and Father, Jesus, therefore, will be to them the author and teacher of such transgression, inasmuch as He commanded that One Being should be called Father, thus imposing upon them the necessity of confessing the Creator as their Father,

    And therefore One God, the Father is declared, who is above all, and through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ.

    whom the law proclaimed as “God”, the same did Christ point out as the Father,

    Clement of Alexandria (ca. 200)

    The Son is the power of God, as being the Father’s most ancient Word before the making of all things. 

    He is the true only-begotten, the express image of the glory of the Universal King and Almighty Father…. [the only-begotten] the Second Cause. 

     

    #862839
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    YOU: Hebrews 11:3 says nothing about the logos.

    Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the world was framed by

    the word of God:(Jesus, the Son of Man to be, ETERNALLY THE SON, WISDOM, ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE FATHER, POWER,  BUT DISTINCT, FUSED BY THE HOLY GHOST, LOVE!)

    that from invisible THINGS (ALL IN “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man to be) : VISIBLE THINGS  (ALL IN”THE WORD’ Jesus, the son of man to be ) might be made.

    Colossians 1:16 For by him were

    ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,

    VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:

    ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him: 17And he is

    BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by him

    ALL THINGS CONSISTS.

    Peace and Love in Jesus Christ

     

    #862840
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Ed,

    You said: According to Hebrews 11:3 Jesus CANNOT be “The Word” – what say you?

    According to Hebrews 11:3, Jesus being the logos of John 1:1 is not addressed one way or the other.

    By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,
    so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

    When looking at the expanse, one knows that a man did not make that but something greater than anything that can be seen in creation must have made the world.

    #862841
    Ed J
    Participant

    T8 would you also please address my question

    I’m working my way back so haven’t come to it yet.

    I suspect it was about what you said to Berean, so I will answer that.

    The Word became flesh means the Word took on the nature of man and thus became visible.

    The Word that was with God is not said to have a body that I can tell anyway.

    Hi T8, yes indeed!

    Is your view changing from “The Word” being Jesus to “The Word” being the “Spirit of Christ” then ?

    #862842
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Is your view changing from “The Word” being Jesus to “The Word” being the “Spirit of Christ” then ?

    My view hasn’t changed since before this forum was created. However, I will say it is quite hard to say for sure because there is not much written for us to say with full confidence how this all works.

    First off, Christ is a mystery:

    so that their hearts may be encouraged, united in love and into all the wealth of the full assurance of insight into the knowledge of the mystery of God, Christ, in whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden. 

    +

    To me, the least of all the saints, was given this grace: to proclaim the good news of the fathomless riches of Christ to the Gentiles, and to enlighten everyone as to what is the administration of the mystery hidden from the ages by God, who created all things, in order that the many-sided wisdom of God might be made known now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places through the church, according to the purpose of the ages which he carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

    =

    Christ is a mystery, but that mystery has been revealed to a degree. Likewise, the Gentiles being partakers of God’s glory was also a mystery. And so is scripture a mystery. Mysteries are revealed to those who seek however.

    When you join the dots in scripture, we see that God created all things through the Word that was with him, the Son, and Jesus Christ. If we assume God created all things through the same agent and not two or three, then yes Jesus Christ is the Son and the Word and then it comes as no surprise that when he returns, he is called the Word of God.

    The Apostolic fathers certainly had a view that the Word was the first to come from God and that Word came to us in the form of flesh with the name Jesus / Yeshua who was made the Christ by God.

    #862849
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You didn’t answer my second question.
    which is as follows:

    copied – pasted

    681
    “Hi Jodi

    Try to be shorter
    and simply answer the question we’re asking you. . .
    For you it is YAHWEH the King of Glory, I guess the Father of Jesus! ?(first question ok)

    second question
    But what event does Psalm 24 announce?

    This king of glory comes in through the gates …
    The gates of what?

    They are eternal gates ! ! !

    God bless

    #862853
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    YOU:

    second question
    But what event does Psalm 24 announce?

    This king of glory comes in through the gates …
    The gates of what?

    They are eternal gates ! ! !

    ME:

    You ask what event does Psalm 24 announce, you say the King comes in through the gates..

    In my initial post I said, “Jesus is a MAN who our heavenly Father makes into a king of kings who reigns on earth to fulfill our Father’s will, which is to destroy all enemies, and then our heavenly Father himself COMES to dwell with us in His kingdom whereby He is all in all.”

    I am sorry for not specifically mentioning the gates, so let me rephrase my statement,

    “our heavenly Father himself comes” through the everlasting gates “to dwell with us in His kingdom.”

    In my initial post I gave you 6 sentences of my own words and over 50 sentences quoting direct scripture. The words of God that I gave make me confident that my own words speak the same truth.

    #862854
    Berean
    Participant

    Edj

    you

    Berean please give me your take on Hebrews 11:3

    Darby Bible Translation
    By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,
    so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

    Weymouth New Testament
    Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,
    so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

    so, According to Hebrews 11:3 Jesus CANNOT be “The Word” – what say you?

    Hi Berean,

    Instead of you addressing what the last part of Hebrews 11:3 says,
    you instead springboard back to ‘what you believe’ as if I don’t know – you said it a million times already

    You remind me of Gene, he doesn’t address the question’s I ask either.
    But at least you have a “Free Will”, so please address my question this time; OK?

    Thank you
    Ed J

    Me

    YAHWEH is one and I do all that He want(Ps.115:3)

    Darby Bible Translation
    By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,

    Weymouth New Testament
    Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,

    ………1)  by the word of God … (Darby)

    ………2)  at the command of God,…(Weymouth)

    My take is that God create all Things by His word(the WORD OF GOD)

    For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.(Psalms 33:9)

    Some think that God by Himself created all things and others think that it is through Jesus Christ that God created all things.
    One fact remains and it is that it is enough for God to speak, to order for the thing to happen.

    GOD PRONCE A WORD AND THING EXISTS

    But more than that God supports all things with his mighty word;

    LIS HEBREUX 1 concerning this
    and we’re talking about the Son of God

    God who in various times and in various ways once spoke to the fathers through the prophets,
    In these last days, he spoke to us through his Son, whom he established heir to all things, by which he also created the worlds;
    He is the brilliance of his glory, the image of his person,  and upholding all things by the word of his power,
    , when he himself has purged our sins, he sat at the right hand of the Majesty from the top ;

    …  and upholding all things with the word of his power,…

    JESUS UPHOLD ALL THINGS WITH THE WORD OF HIS POWER

     

    Job.4
    [4] Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.
    Pss.37
    [17] For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
    [24] Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
    Pss.41
    [12] And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever.

    In Colossians 1

    17] And he(JESUS CHRIST) is BEFORE all things, and by him all things consist.

    “and by him all things consist.”

    “consist.”

    4921
    sunistaw
    sunistao
    soon-is-tah’-o,
    sunistano soon-is-tan’-o, or sunistemi soon-is’-tay-mee from sun – sun 4862 and isthmi – histemi 2476 (including its collateral forms); to set together, i.e. (by implication) to introduce (favorably), or (figuratively) to exhibit; intransitively, to stand near, or (figuratively) to constitute:–approve, commend, consist, make, stand (with).

    CONCLUSION

    Personnaly I believe that Jesus is THE WORD BY WHOM GOD

    SPOKE

    COMMAND

    So Hebrews 11:3 does not contradict the fact that Jesus is THE WORD OF GOD YESTERDAY, TODAY AND ALWAYS
    BECAUSE JESUS IS THE SAME
    YESTERDAY
    TODAY
    ETERNALLY(Hebrews 13:8)

     

    Hoping to have answered your question (at least in part).

    God bless

     

     

     

     

     

    #862855
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    To summarize the points I made that I then backed with direct scripture in my initial post to answer your question concerning Psalm 24,

    1. The kingdom that we enter is our heavenly Father’s Kingdom
    2. Our Father’s Kingdom He puts it in the hands of a Son of Man, the root and offspring of David, who is appointed as a king over kings.
    3. Our heavenly Father is YHWH whereby He chooses one man from among brethren giving him of His Spirit to perform YHWH’s will to destroy all enemies.
    4. This Son of Man reigns on earth until all enemies are destroyed, then our Father YHWH comes down to dwell with us in His KINGdom.
    #862856
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and All,

    Psalm 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle. 9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    YHWH OF hosts

    Jesus is not YHWH but a host of YHWH, he is the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star.

    Psalm 103:21 Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.

    Acts 13:22-23 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fullfil all my will. Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    Psalm 84:12 O LORD of hosts, blessed is the man that trusteth in thee.

    Psalm 84:3 Yea, the sparrow hath found an house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young, even thine altars, O LORD of hosts, my King, and my God. 4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my Kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

     

    #862857
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi and all,

    Pss.24
    [1] The earth is the Lord’s, and its fullness; the world, and those who inhabit it.
    [2] For he founded it on the seas, and established it on the waves.
    [3] Who will go up on the hill of the Lord? or who will be held in his holy place?
    [4] He who has clean hands and a pure heart; who has neither elevated his soul to vanity nor sworn deceitfully.
    [5] He will receive the blessing of the Lord and the righteousness of the God of his salvation.
    [6] This is the generation of those who seek him, who seek your face, O Jacob. Selah.
    [7] Lift your head, oh doors! and you get up, eternal gates; and the king of glory will enter.
    [8] Who is this king of glory? The strong and mighty Lord, the mighty Lord in battle.
    [9] Lift your head, oh doors! lift them up, eternal gates; and the king of glory will enter.
    [10] Who is this king of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the king of glory. Selah.

    first part (verses 1 and 2) summary
    The land belongs to JEHOVAH because it is HIM who created it
    Part two (verses 3 to 6)
    The conditions for climbing towards the holy mountain and living in the holy place: those who have clean hands, a pure heart, who seeks his face;
    Part Three (Verses 7-10)
    The order is given to open the eternal doors so that the king of glory
    enters;
    This king is the Lord of hosts
    In Hebrews “JEHOVAH” of the armies;

    My point of view
    This psalm raises us to God who created the earth and all things and it gives us the conditions if we want to one day live with God in his HOLY PLACE.
    The King of Glory is the one who showed us the way to the Holy Place of God;
    This king of glory whom David describes to us in this psalms is not God the Father, but THE SON OF GOD who descended from the HOLY PLACE on our earth, which was made chair, which led a perfect by faith in his Father, who died on the cross for our sins and who was resurrected by the Spirit of the Father AND WHO ascended into heaven to the Father having brought with him captives (see Ephesians 4:10)
    “He who descended is the same who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill all things.” see the rest of Ephesians 4.
    IT IS THEREFORE THIS GLORIOUS ARRIVAL FROM CHRIST TO THE HOLY CITY THAT IS DESCRIBED IN THESE VERSES 7 to 10
    So, as Christ overcome by faith and that he fulfilled the conditions to access the HOLY PLACE, we too by faith, we can progress in our walk with God and hope one day in the courts of our God.

     

    God bless

    #862859
    Lightenup
    Participant

    https://youtu.be/56t4B82nZNY

    Happy Resurrection Day everybody, enjoy this song, a favorite of mine, that I want to share with you all.

    Revelation 5

    11Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands. 12In a loud voice they were saying:

    “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,

    to receive power and riches

    and wisdom and strength

    and honor and glory and blessing!”

    He is risen!

    LU

    #862860
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen

    Worthy is the Lamb !

    #862861
    Berean
    Participant

    Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
    [2] (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
    [3] Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    [4] And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
    [5] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
    [6] Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

    #862862
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Yes Berean, worthy is the Lamb! Hallelujah! Thank you for the song,

    Blessngs,

    LU

    #862864
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    HAPPY EASTER:

    BETER LATE than NEVER!

    YOU:He is risen!

    ME: WHO?

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #862877
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thank you Carmel, I hope you had a Happy Resurrection Day as well!

    ”Who” you asked…who do you think? Read your Bible, 😉

     

    #862878
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    Revelation 19 shos us that Jesus is “THE WORD OF GOD”

    and

    THE KING OF KINGS

    THE KING/CHIEF/CAPTAIN /PRINCE OF THE HOSTS

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    THIS CONFIRMS WHAT DAVID HAD ANNOUNCED
    WITH PSALM 24

    Darby’s English Translation
    24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory. 

    THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REVELATION 19 AND PSALM 24 IS THAT IN REVELATION 19 JESUS DESCENDS FROM THE SKY WITH THE ARMY OF HIS ANGELS WHILE IN PSALM 24 JESUS GOES UP AND ARRIVES TO THE SKY BEFORE THE ETERNAL DOORS OF THE HOLY CITY HOSTED BY ANGELS

    God bless

    Brn

     

    #862879
    Berean
    Participant

    JESUS CHIEF OF ANGELS

    Mathew 24

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    [31] And he(JESUS) shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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