John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,061 through 20,080 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #862805
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8

    Regarding this:

    LU said: t8, if the original living eternal One beget a Son asexually, then that original One manifests Himself as two at the moment the reproductive process began, in a father and a son. Both equally having the eternal nature of the original One.

    t8 asks: Are you saying the original God split into two equal parts or are you saying the original God begat another who is the Son and/or Word? Or something else. I remember in the past, you taught a binity a Godhead comprising two equal beings.

    If you study the asexual reproduction (which the begetting or birth is the last phase of) through binary fission, you can see that from one living organism going through asexual reproduction, the result is two equal living organisms.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/3BUAmZJWxUuc3CvR6

    #862806
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Okay, so you are teaching that the one God split into two equal parts.

    But Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I”.

    #862811
    Berean
    Participant

    I think that the daughter cell is not a hundred percent identical to the mother cell that produced it. The daughter cell receives its own identity.
    The age of the daughter cell substance is identical to the age of the parent cell substance; but the age of the daughter cell is counted from the moment it is formed.
    I am reformulating for the age of the daughter cell.
    If we consider its substance, it is the same age as the substance of the mother cell. If we consider the birth of the daughter cell, there is a beginning … and therefore we count her age from the moment she is formed.

    What do you think?

     

    #862813
    Lightenup
    Participant

    T8 and Berean,

    I do appreciate your thinking through this with me. It’s important.

    The end result after asexual reproduction is two identical organisms with substance that is the same age in each. The difference, one beget the other which makes the begetter greater to the begotten. The one who beget is the Father, the one begotten is the son, the Firstborn of God over all creation who is the exact representation of his Father.

    He lives!

    LU

     

    #862815
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    So two identical gods except one is the begetter so edges out the begotten. Otherwise 2 gods. Is that it?

    #862816
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    For decades now in these forums, this topic always goes the same way. God is made up of more than one person.

    Some say two, some say three, I think one member even believes in 4 or even 5. When arguing about why their view is correct, they are all able to keep a straight face.

    The truth is God is one. One God, one identity, the Most High. If we understood the difference between identity and nature, then all the confusion goes away.

    God is God because he is the Father, not because he is divine. God actually shares this nature and those who receive divine nature are blessed, but they are not God and never will be. Divine nature doesn’t make you God.

    #862820
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8……good post, I also agree with that. We have one and “only one”  God.  There is “only one mediator” between men and God “the man” Jesus Christ. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #862821
    Berean
    Participant

    T8

     

    For you who is “THE WORD”

    WHO WAS GOD…?

     

    God bless

    #862823
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8,

    t8 said: So two identical gods except one is the begetter so edges out the begotten. Otherwise 2 gods. Is that it?

    There is only one God alone and that one God is expressed as two persons together, not one person alone…a Father working out all things through his only begotten Son and for the Son who is identical to him in eternal nature, united in spirit. The Son made another person a father (your son made you a father, btw), the Son made another person, a creator (apart from the Son, nothing was made), the Son makes another person, a shepherd (the Son goes after the lost sheep and seeks to not lose any of those the Father has given to him), the Son makes another person, a Savior (apart from the work of the Son no man can be saved), the Son makes another person a redeemer (the Son paid the fee with his blood), the Son makes another person a judge (all judgement was given to the Son, one person judges through the another person, not apart from the Son). When one person does his work through another person, that makes two persons accomplishing the work, t8.

    I don’t know how anyone can think of God and worship God as only one person, apart from the Son when one person does all “God” things through another person who is the only begotten Son. Jehovah said that He alone created the heavens and the earth. We are also told that all things were created by one person through another person. Obviously there are more than one persons as Jehovah. Jehovah is the God of gods AND the Lord of lords and I believe that is not one person but two persons. Jesus is clearly called the Lord of lords in Revelation. 

    Rev 5;13

    And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the dominion forever and ever.”

    Once again…that “Lamb” IS CALLED “Lord of lords.”

    Rev 17:13 These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones.”

    As I understand it, the Father provides the vision and instruction, the Son carries out the vision and instruction and their spirits are united as the Holy Spirit.

    I do NOT express this understanding as a binity (that was how you labeled me, t8 and I have told you that numerable times) but as One Jehovah God expressed in the interdependent unity of Father and Son who are united in spirit which is referred to as the Holy Spirit of God.

    t8, from what you have shown all of us this past week,  during all this time on HN you haven’t realized that Jesus is called “Lord of lords.” But even after this was pointed out to you, you still minimize the Son to be only the first of many sons who the Father shares his nature with and not the Lord of lords you worship as Jehovah together with his Father. That says alot. It was you who quoted something about once a man is shown mistaken but does not change…how does that go, t8?

    He lives!

    Blessings, LU

    #862824
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    Peace upon you as well, thank you!

    My understanding from scripture is that there is One Almighty God who is our heavenly Father YHWH, and He is a God of gods, a Lord of lords, and most certainly a King of kings.

    The kingdom that we are to enter is our heavenly Father’s kingdom, He is the King over His Kingdom. 

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Luke 11:2 And he said unto them,When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

    Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

    Jesus is a MAN who our heavenly Father makes into a king of kings who reigns on earth to fulfill our Father’s will, which is to destroy all enemies, and then our heavenly Father himself comes to dwell with us in His kingdom whereby He is all in all. 

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. …7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 

    RECALL, Jesus says those who follow the will of his Father are his brothers and sisters.

    RECALL, Romans 8:6 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together….29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 

    Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever…14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city….16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    Psalm 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle. 9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. 16 Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; 17 Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow. 18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. 20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, MY CHOSEN.

    Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 

    Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. ..6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a LIGHT of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them

    Isaiah 45:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Matthew 25:12-14 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. ..31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    Berean, as we are told, when all have received their inheritance, when the Son of Man, appointed as a king of kings, has all enemies destroyed and our heavenly Father is ALL IN ALL, He comes down to dwell in His KINGDOM with us, where He is most certainly our King of glory. This King of glory is YHWH, and this same YHWH gave us His WORD that the son of Jesse would receive YHWH’s glory whereby he is appointed a lord of lord’s to fulfill YHWH’s will, so that YHWH can come down from heaven and dwell with us.  

    #862825
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:

    There is only one God alone and that one God is expressed as two persons together, not one person alone…a Father working out all things through his only begotten Son and for the Son

    I don’t know how anyone can think of God and worship God as only one person, apart from the Son when one person does all “God” things through another person who is the only begotten Son.

    ME: LU what do you do with the passage that says,

    Romans 8:6 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together….29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    and these,

    Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them LIGHT: and they shall reign for ever and ever…14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city….16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. ..6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a LIGHT of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

    THIS LORD who says that He gives His glory unto the son of Jesse, also says that there is none besides Him, that He ALONE is God.

    THIS LORD calls this son of Jesse to righteousness, He MAKES him for to be a LIGHT.

    LU please READ and RESPOND, 

    Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

    9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
    (the spacing wasn’t working)
    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    LU, Jesus was raised from the dead a son of David being begotten by the LORD, a fulfillment of the LORD’s WORD, he is NOT the LORD. Jesus was raised receiving according to a promise the Holy Spirit, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. The Son of God IS the firstborn of MANY, he is NOT the LORD or the Holy Spirit. JESUS was MADE by the LORD both a master and our Messiah, that SAME LORD who says there is no one else, NO GOD BESIDES HIM. 

    Romans 1:1-4 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Do you see it LU? The LORD in Isaiah 45 is ONE GOD, HIS NAME is YHWH, there is NONE besides Him, THIS LORD is Jesus’s MAKER. YHWH didn’t MAKE  Jesus into the Holy Spirit, YHWH didn’t make Jesus YHWH.

    YHWH MADE Jesus to sit on his father David’s throne according to the flesh, where He is a Son of YHWH, MADE a Son along with many brethren, according to the Spirit. 

    Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being MADE perfect, he BECAME the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    YHWH MADE Jesus perfect.

    YHWH MADE Jesus our author of eternal salvation.

    The ONE who is the MAKER says that HE ALONE is GOD, that there is NONE BESIDES HIM.

    YHWH MAKES the LIGHT and Jesus IS the root and offspring, the BRIGHT and morning STAR.  

     

    #862826
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    Hi Jodi

    Try to be shorter
    and just answer the question we ask you. ..
    For you it is YAHWEH the king of glory, I suppose the Father of Jesus !?
    But what event does psalm 24 announce?

    This king of glory enters through gates …
    gates of what?

    They are everlasting dors/ gates !!!

    Lift up your head, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
    [8] Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
    [9] Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
    [10] Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    God bless

    #862827
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    The name of our one God is YHWH, YHWH is two persons as I understand it. One person sent the other person to become flesh and redeem mankind. In order to become flesh that second person had to empty himself of whatever necessary to become man. Once emptied and finished with his mission, he was given back what he emptied himself of.

    In other words, our one God YHWH alone created all things as Father and Son.

    We are joint heirs of eternal life.

    Have a wonderful celebration of the resurrection of the Lord of lords.

    LU

    #862828
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Jodi,

    YOU: YHWH MAKES the LIGHT and Jesus IS the root and offspring, the BRIGHT and morning STAR.  

    ME: In the above Jodi, YOU CONFIRMED THOUGH NOT AWARE OF IT THAT

    JESUS IS NOT ONLY OFFSPRING OF DAVID, ONLY IN RELATION TO YOUR CARNAL MINDED UNDERSTANDING BUT ALSO

    A SPIRIT BEING PRE-EXISTED HIDDEN IN

    EVERY CREATURE’S HEART AS ETERNAL LIFE,   “THE WORD”

    THE SON OF MAN TO BE.

    THE SEED OF GOD’S KINGDOM Matthew 13:37 Who made answer and said to them: He that soweth

    the good seed is the Son of man

    THE BEGINNING, and THE END, THE FIRST,  and THE LAST

    THE BEGINNING OF EVERY BEGINNING TO MAINTAIN 

    HIS PRIMACY

    PRECISELY:

    BOTH IN DAVID’S HEART’SOUL,

    HIS CREATOR IN HIS MOTHER’S WOMB.

    SIMPLY FOR JESUS AS A SPIRIT TO BE THE FIRST KING OVER THE WHOLE OF ISRAEL. PURE TRUTH!

    Psalm 139: 13 For thou hast

    possessed my reins:

    thou hast protected me from ( from Satan’s presence in his heart/soul through sex)

    my mother’s womb.

    14I will praise thee, for thou art fearfully magnified: wonderful are thy works,

    and my soul knoweth right well.(the abode of “the word” Jesus the Son of man)

    15 My bone( SPIRIT)  is not hidden from thee, which thou hast made in secret: (his creator)

    and my substance( LUCIFER’S) in the lower parts of the earth. ( IN DAVID’S SPIRIT ETERNAL LIFE, WHILE HE WAS STILL A SPIRIT IN FIRE AFTER THE REBELLION)

    AND IN LUCIFER’S HEART.

    THE BEGINNING, of creation John1:1

    and also

    the first-ever physical

    MORNING STAR!

    Hidden as

    THE SPIRITUAL MORNING STAR.

    THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT.

     

    Isaiah 14:12How you have fallen from heaven,

    morning star, son of the dawn!

    You have been cast down to the earth,

    you who once laid low the nations!

    Luke 10:18 And he said to them:

    I saw Satan like lightning

    falling from heaven.

    ( “THE WORD” Jesus in Lucifer’s heart after the rebel, and also on Jesus’ baptism, where Jesus fulfilled ALL JUSTICE, THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE FREE FROM LUCIFER’S SPIRIT, IN JESUS’ EMBODIMENT and established the lineage of many brethren in HIM)

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #862829
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: Try to be shorter
    and just answer the question we ask you. ..

    ME: I answered your question at the very beginning of my post. 

    “My understanding from scripture is that there is One Almighty God who is our heavenly Father YHWH, and He is a God of gods, a Lord of lords, and most certainly a King of kings.

    The kingdom that we are to enter is our heavenly Father’s kingdom, He is the King over His Kingdom. “

    Psalms 24 speaks of YHWH, I tell you from the beginning of my post that YHWH is the Father and He is King.

    HOW DOES THAT NOT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION in regards to Psalms 24 that is speaking directly of YHWH?

    Psalm 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 8 Who is this King of glory? YHWH strong and mighty, the YHWH mighty in battle. 9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 10 Who is this King of glory? YHWH of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    If I tell you YHWH is ONE GOD OUR HEAVENLY FATHER and HE IS KING, you can’t conclude that my understanding thus of WHO the King in Psalms 24 is, would be our heavenly Father?

     

    #862831
    Ed J
    Participant

    Berean please give me your take on Hebrews 11:3

    Darby Bible Translation
    By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,
    so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

    Weymouth New Testament
    Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,
    so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

    so, According to Hebrews 11:3 Jesus CANNOT be “The Word” – what say you?

    Hi Berean,

    Instead of you addressing what the last part of Hebrews 11:3 says,
    you instead springboard back to ‘what you believe’ as if I don’t know – you said it a million times already

    You remind me of Gene, he doesn’t address the question’s I ask either.
    But at least you have a “Free Will”, so please address my question this time; OK?

    Thank you
    Ed J

    #862832
    Ed J
    Participant

    T8 would you also please address my question

    #862833
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hebrews 11:3 says nothing about the logos.

    #862834
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    Try to be shorter
    and just answer the question we ask you. ..

    That requires honesty, transparency, and confidence in what you believe.

    I rarely read her posts for that reason.

    Jodi would have made a great lawyer.

    #862835
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    T8 would you also please address my question

    I’m working my way back so haven’t come to it yet.

    I suspect it was about what you said to Berean, so I will answer that.

    The Word became flesh means the Word took on the nature of man and thus became visible.

    The Word that was with God is not said to have a body that I can tell anyway.

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