John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,981 through 20,000 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #862659
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If God became a man, then why did the Word that was with God become flesh. It would just need to say that God became flesh and God became a man. But the Word became flesh. Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    #862660
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Not quite, t8,

    Rev 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

    He IS Lord of lords AND King of kings.

    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

    He was made Lord.

    For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    There is actually one ultimate Lord and he is obviously above all lords as there are many lords.

    there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
    one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
    one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    Again, there is one ultimate Lord.

    But I hear you say. Isn’t God a lord as you quoted in Deuteronomy. He is the highest God, thus of the many so-called gods, there is one LORD God who is over all, in all, and through all. So he is the one called God in these verses, not Jesus. Jesus Christ is Lord. Being

    I will address Jesus being the King in another post.

    #862661
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Now that you can see that, does it make a difference…it says that the Lamb IS Lord of lords, it doesn’t say the Lamb comes in the name of the Lord of lords?

    Correct. Even though we know he does come in the name of the LORD, he doesn’t come in the name of the Lord of lords. Thus there is a difference as I think you see.

    LORD is YHWH and Lord is kurios if I remember rightly. And they are different words. Old and New Testament too.

    So comparing Deut 10:17 to the New Testament can be tricky. Just because the same word is being used, remember that the languages and the cultures are different.

    For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.

    With a New Testament understanding we first know that Jesus is the messiah and Lord whereas Duet doesn’t show us that. And of course God is the God of gods and in the context of not being told about the Lord Jesus Christ, of course he would technically be the Lord of Lords too.

    But God made Jesus both Lord and Christ and we know that God is greater than Lord because being Lord was appointed by God.

     

    #862662
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Context is everything sometimes

    Jesus of course is the most high King. As the sons of God will become or are kings and priests. And given that the kings of the earth are still subject to God, it stands to reason that Jesus is king and the highest king, but with one exception, he is not king over God.

    Yes, you can technically say that God is a king too. But God is much more than a king and obviously he is above Jesus who is the the Ruler of Kings on Earth. So if we include the Father, then yes he is the most high King. When the focus is Jesus, then he is the king of kings.

    In short, there is one God the father and one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ. If I even had a creed this would be it. Paul clearly teaches this and I believe it too and so I am one of the referred ‘US’ because it is what I truly believe. Paul was probably not addressing you or others who do not believe this. Correct me if I am wrong about that, but you seem to teach against this.

    for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,

    I would like to conclude with this. Context is everything. God aside, Jesus was appointed as the king above all kings and the Lord above all lords. With one exception that we do not have to stress every single time. He is not God or King or Lord above his Father. So if we include God too, then the Most High of all is the Father as he is above the son. He would technically speaking in that context be the king of kings and Lord of lords. God is also the Father of Spirits despite angels being spirits and angels having chiefs and perhaps a most high angel or chief archangel.

    When we see what looks like a conflict all we need to do is look at the context. Is the focus God, is it Jesus, is it an angel, is it Satan who is also a god. Context is everything.

    I will conclude with this. I could say I am the president. And I might say I am the most powerful president. But what if the context was a university? So even if I was the president of presidents in a particular learning institution, or leader of all presidents in a group of learning institutions, it wouldn’t negate that Trump was the president of the US and it wouldn’t also make me Trump or Trump me because we had the same title.

    Context is everything sometimes and many take Bible verses out of context to suit their own needs.

    #862667
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8……I agree with you on this, Jesus is not God the Father or a God at all, he is a Son of God, being a human being and the first to be resurected from the grave of “many” brethern.  The biggest problem LU has is she doesn’t understand there is a big difference in the upper case words LORD, and the lower case lord,  the Hebrew word for LORD is (adonai) or (yehovah)) meaning ALMIGHTY GOD,  and the word for lord is (adoni) meaning a “human” ruler or master of some kind. 

    Psa 110:1…..The LORD  (adonai) which is a proper name for GOD “ONLY”,  said unto my Lord (adoni) which is a human ruler or master, Sit you at my right hand, untill I make your enemies your footstool. 

    If LU and others really understood that they would not be so likely to commit IDOLATRY.  

    T8 well at least we do agree on this and I know Jodi and I think Mike does also.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

     

    #862668
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    So we are back to Philippians 2.

    Philippians 2 IS TALKING ABOUT CHRIST JESUS, the Son of Man said to have been ANOINTED with the full measure and power of YHWH’s Spirit SENT out into the world by YHWH/thus sent FROM HEAVEN, to be as YHWH by performing all of YHWH’s WILL and speaking all of YHWH’s words.

    THIS CHRIST JESUS was he who was in the FORM of YHWH, where like YHWH he was unable to sin, but unlike YHWH being of the seed of Abraham he was a HUMAN like all HUMAN’s able to be tempted and able to DIE.

    Let this MIND be in you that was also IN CHRIST. 

    Paul was telling those anointed with God’s Spirit also to be like minded with CHRIST JESUS, the Son of Man anointed. Paul was NOT asking people to be like minded with a god Son from heaven.

    People were given great powers of the Spirit Berean, and like Jesus they could be tempted to use them for their own VAIN GLORY, for their own purpose, and not for the sake of others and not according to the will of God.  They needed to be of the SAME MIND as CHRIST JESUS, a humble servant.   

    A human child was given the name JESUS, and JESUS was ANOINTED (CHRIO) by God making him into the ANOINTED (CHRISTOS).

    Philippians 2 is talking about this CHRIST JESUS being in the FORM of God.

    This Son of Man will return IN his Father’s GLORY, where we will see him in the FORM of God again, he will once again be as YHWH doing all of YHWH’s will. The man ordained by God to judge the quick and the dead, not by his own eyes and ears.  

     

     

    #862670
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Yes how perfect, Psalms 8 is of Genesis and it is A DIRECT PROPHECY of JESUS who is the Last ADAM. The first Adam brought sin and death and the Last Adam brings righteousness and life, just as YHWH purposed before the world began. Jesus brings righteousness and life, BECAUSE of the glory of YHWH’s Spirit dwelling within a man, as he could do nothing of himself. 

    God made man in his own image and gave mankind dominion overall the earth, and we are given God’s purpose for His creation, He made Adam/humans not in vain, but had a plan from the beginning to give mankind eternal life, where they would live upon the earth walking in all God’s ways, living in His image, as God will be ALL IN each one of us as He is with Christ Jesus, He gives us a heart of FLESH and gives His Spirit to dwell therein for all eternity.

    As we are told in Isaiah 53, BECAUSE a man goes to the cross and sheds his blood for the salvation of others YHWH gives him a portion with the great, where he DIVIDES it with the strong. We are likewise told that as Christ is an heir of God we are heirs of God, JOINT HEIRS with Christ Jesus.

    Jesus is a king of kings and a lord of lords, those kings and lords have dominion as well. Man has eternal dominion over the earth fulfilling God’s very intention from the beginning. This time mankind’s dominion over the earth will be with peace, harmony, and love, for all the earth will be filled with the knowledge of YHWH.

    #862671
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You need to keep this straight. Jesus was and is a human being according to many direct scriptures. 

    So ask your self, how was the human being who Jesus is said to be, like humans, like his FELLOW BRETHREN?

    He could be tempted and he could die.

    How was the human Jesus in the form of God, UNLIKE other humans, unlike his FELLOW BRETHREN?

    He was the only mortal man begotton by God receiving the fullness and power of God’s Spirit where he could not sin.

    #862672
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    HEBREWS 1 :4 …..DIVINITY OF CHRIST HIGHER THAN ANGELS

    [4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    ME: WHY don’t you KEEP reading the passage Berean??????????

    5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    He who is so much better than the angels, IS the son of David, who is YHWH’s Son according to the Spirit, an eternal Son upon his resurrection from the dead where he received the promised Holy Spirit.

    This Son appeared to many on earth and taught of himself according to OT prophecies, revealing what prophecies had already been fulfilled and that which was left to fulfill. When this Son of Man returns again in his Father’s glory all will worship/give him reverence BECAUSE he is the human who is our mediator to the One True God, because he is the man appointed by God to judge the quick and the dead. Because as Isaiah 22 tells us he is to be a FATHER over the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the house of David, set up on a throne according to the flesh as a king over all the other kings of the earth. 

     

    #862673
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

     

    you

    How was the human Jesus in the form of God, UNLIKE other humans, unlike his FELLOW BRETHREN?

    He was the only mortal man begotton by God receiving the fullness and power of God’s Spirit where he could not sin.

    Me

    You try to divinize (in your own way) the man Jesus, but I am not fooled, you preach A HERESY.

     

    #862674
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Philippians 2 IS TALKING ABOUT CHRIST JESUS, the Son of Man said to have been ANOINTED with the full measure and power of YHWH’s Spirit SENT out into the world by YHWH/thus sent FROM HEAVEN, to be as YHWH by performing all of YHWH’s WILL and speaking all of YHWH’s words.

    Me

    you said  …. the Son of Man…..thus sent FROM HEAVEN, to be as YHWH

    PROBLEM

     

    THE TRUTH IS THAT THE DIVINE SON OF GOD CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN…
    HE TOOK UPON HIS DIVINITY  OUR HUMANITY.
    AND HE LIVED IN HARMONY WITH THE WILL OF HIS FATHER GOD.

    JODI STOPS TWISTING GOD’S WORD;

     

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    You have no right to bend that part and many others. It’s a disgrace.

     

    #862677
    Berean
    Participant

    Who, being in the form of God, ….

    And the WORD WAS GOD

     

     

    #862678
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Psalm 130:7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    With the LORD there is eternal life, and eternal life was the Word from the beginning promised unto us, and God from the beginning was himself of eternal life.

    As the WORD from the beginning was a promise of eternal life, the WORD was also from the beginning a promise that a man would bring forth the eternal life. These WORDS are ONE and the same WORD and they equate to the Gospel of God, the good news, the glad tidings. 

    THE ABOVE IS TRUE, you want to tell me it’s not Berean?

    Would not all things consist, wouldn’t all things that were made be created by reason of this WORD and FOR this WORD?

    Do you see how it fits perfectly with John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (eternal life), and the Word (eternal life) was with God, and the Word (eternal life) was God. 2 He (the man who brings eternal life) was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made through him (the man who brings us eternal life); and without him (the man who brings eternal life) was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    The LIGHT is of prophecy concerning a man, the son of Jesse anointed with the fullness of the Spirit, which John 1 speaks of later in this chapter.

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him (the son of man who brings eternal life, where by reason of him God made all things), and the world knew him not. 11 He (the man of the tribe of Judah) came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    #862680
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8

    You asked: If God became a man, then why did the Word that was with God become flesh. It would just need to say that God became flesh and God became a man. But the Word became flesh. Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    It tells us tha the Word that was with God was God. Seventeen verses later that God that was with God is the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, the unseen God.

    YHWH was seen, there is YHWH who is the unseen God and there is YHWH who is the  only begotten God and that one is seen. They are one YHWH, one God in the fullest sense since neither of them are independant of the other but rather interdependent with each other.manifested in two persons in the relationship of father and son.

    I think that a problem some people have is they think of a father and son from the sexual reproductive process. Not enough consideration is given to the other way there can be a parent/offspring relationship…asexually. If people thought it through as an asexual reproductive relationship, it is easy to understand how, from one eternal living source, through the process of asexual reproduction, two identical types of the original (before the reproductive process) would be manifested. Each equally carry the eternal quality and each equally interdependent to each other, not as partners but as father and son.

    You also do not seem to understand that when we see YHWH called the Lord of lords in Deuteronomy, the first “Lord” is not written in all caps as it would be if it was meaning YHWH.

    So, suffice it to say, because you do not appear to have thought through those things, the rest of your posts here on the subject of the deity of Christ are based on sand, imo. Give the asexual reproduction of an eternal living entity some deep thought and I believe you will understand how one YHWH would be manifested into both a father and a son, both with eternal nature if there truly exists an only begotten Son of God, a son in the absolute highest sense.

    I think we both can agree that the only begotten Son did not come as a result of sexual reproduction. That leaves asexual reproduction as the only other possibility I am aware of.

    #862681
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @admin

    My last post did that strange disappearing act and while it is fresh on my mind, I will tell you what happened:

    I wrote the post, hit “submit”, wanted to edit it slightly, hit “edit”, edited it, hit “submit,” then the post did not show up on the thread but did show up on my profile in the unedited version. You can probably go to my profile and see the two very similar posts. I then copied my post from my profile section, pasted it over here, made my corrections, then hit “submit” and it went through. I hope that helps you figure this out.

    #862682
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Being in the FORM of God is NOT being GOD.

    Jesus is NOT God.

    Jesus’s God and Father IS our God and Father. He is an heir of God and we are promised to be heirs with God, being JOINT heirs with Jesus.

    So many scriptures Berean you just throw out the window, treating God’s word like total vanity when it doesn’t fit your imagination.

    4 biblical facts for you,

    A HUMAN was of God’s word from the beginning promised to come and bring salvation.

    This HUMAN came and could do nothing of himself. 

    A HUMAN is promised to come and sit on his father David’s throne ACCORDING to the flesh, where he is a Son of God according to the Spirit. 

    This human is a firstborn Son of many brethren. 

     

    #862683
    Berean
    Participant

    [3] All things were made by him;

     

    ALL  THE BIBLE’S TRANSLATION

    GIVES   BY HIM

     

    Even if you don’t agree with the “by,”

    There’s the “him”

    Him means a person

    Now another point you still haven’t answered.

    COLOSSIANS 1

    For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, thrones, dominions, powers. All things were created by him and for him.

    LET’S LOOK AT THIS LAST PART OF THE VERSION

    All things were created by him and for him.

    If you don’t agree with the “by,

    and you put “for”

    This gives

    Everything was created for him and by him.

    It’s not right, it’s not Paul’s habit to make useless repetitions.

    FOR HIM AND FOR HIM…

    IN TRUTH THE RIGHT TRANSLATION

    IS THAT ALL  THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM

    #862684
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: I’m sure you also know of other passages where Jehovah is saying something like, “I will do this and that”, and ends with “Jehovah has spoken it, and it will be done”. Doesn’t mean there are two Jehovahs. Besides, we already know that our Lord’s name is Jesus, and his and our God’s name is Jehovah, right?

    There is one Jehovah manifested in two persons. We know our Lord’s name is Lord of lords, so is Jehovah’s.

    While a passage with a speaker referring to themselves in the first and third persons is possible, it is not the default understanding. You have to bring a filter to understand it in a way other than the default.

    Jesus does speak of being the one sent by God and happy that his disciples know that He was sent by God. Jesus is also the only begotten Son with the eternal nature of God, and Jesus is called Lord and also Jehovah as seen at times. See Gen 18 and tell me how that “LORD “is the unseen God speaking with Abraham.

    #862685
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Kathi: They are not the same cell, they are two distinct yet identical cells.

    Mike: I understand what you’re saying.  Do you understand that you’re saying that the Father is a combo of Father and Son while the Son is an IDENTICAL combo of Father and Son?  Because that is what you’re saying, right?  Is that what you believe?

    No, I am saying that the FO is identical in nature to the SO, and they are each identical in nature to the OO. The FO and the SO would only be a combo of parent/offspring if they were undergoing asexual reproduction.

    #862688
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    JESUS IS not God, nor is he called The Word of God because he pre-existed.

    Jesus is a human of the offspring of David who is called The Word of God in Revelation for 3 VERY GOOD REASONS, 1) in him is God’s word made true in the flesh many times over, 2) he is God’s prophet raised up from among brethren where God gives him HIS WORDS from out of HIS MOUTH to then speak to us, 3) his work is to fulfill God’s WORD that God spoke before the world even began. 

    Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; BECAUSE he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof…9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God..16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 

    Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Psalms 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

     

     

     

     

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