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Anthony: Hi Nick
The truth is, the dead are now dead because they have all been sinners and “the wages of sin is death”(Romans 6:26). That is why humans die. They are sinful in body, in soul, and in spirit.
We, as human beings, are composed of three living parts. We are body. We are soul. And we are spirit. Paul put it this way:
“The very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus.”1 Thessalonians 5:23
God bless
I’m with you on this one too, Anthony. I used to liken it to a computer, with the body being the outer casing, the soul being the program, and the spirit being the electricity. The spirit by which we live goes back to Him who gave it when we die. The body returns to the dust from which it came. And the soul (mind?) awaits judgement day. I don’t know whether the soul remains conscious during that wait, or sleeps. Solomon says the dead are conscious of nothing at all, and Samuel was sleeping when Saul had the medium awaken him. On the other hand, Jesus’ parable of Abraham suggests they are conscious… as does Revelation talking about the souls under the altar (those who had been killed for the testimony of Jesus) who are given white robes and told by God to wait a little longer until all things had been accomplished.
My personal thought is that 99% of us are like Solomon said… conscious of nothing until the day of judgement. A few who are really precious to God, or who were killed DIRECTLY for staying faithful in the face of dire persecution are maybe taken right from death here to life in heaven. And a couple, like Enoch and Elijah, were definitely taken right from life on earth to life in heaven. I think those under the altar in Revelation may be the ones Jesus spoke about when he said some would not taste death before he returned, because they went from life here to life there without “tasting death”.
Hi T8,
No you are up a gumtree.
A man like you was filled with the Spirit.
A vessel found clean enough to hold this Holy treasure.
And he wants you to follow him.
Nick, I rebuke with scripture and you just pass on personal opinions. Scripture wins Nick.
There is no such thing as your truth, only the truth and your opinion.
The truth is good at bursting people’s false reality bubbles.
Dig4Truth
T8, I was with up to this point; “this is for you too. God created all things through the son and through his Word. And that Word became flesh and that Word was with God in the beginning, even before the cosmos. Jesus, the son of God is the Word become flesh, he is not God become flesh and nor is he a created man only. He was also more like Adam, a prototype son.”
- God spoke things into existence: (True or False)
- The Word became flesh: (True or False)
- The Word was with God in the beginning: (True or False)
- Jesus the son of God is the Word become flesh: (True or False)
- Jesus is not God become flesh: (True or False)
- He is more than a created man: (True or False)
- He is the new Adam: (True or False)
Probably just easier to say which of these statements are false.
T8: “God spoke things into existence: (True or False)
The Word became flesh: (True or False)
The Word was with God in the beginning: (True or False)
Jesus the son of God is the Word become flesh: (True or False)
Jesus is not God become flesh: (True or False)
He is more than a created man: (True or False)
He is the new Adam: (True or False)”
1) True, “God” spoke everything into existence. Comparing Scripture with Scripture we know that EVERYTHING was created by Yeshua. So if “God” created everything then Yeshua must be God.
2) True, The Word became flesh. The Word was with God and WAS God.
3) True, The Word was with God in the beginning.
4) True, Yeshua is the Word (which WAS God) made flesh.
5) False, Yeshua is God in the flesh. Anything else is heresy. (Your assumption is that “the Word” and “God” are not the same) [Am I wrong?]
6) True, Yeshua is more than a normal man. [No normal man beside Yeshua has the Holy Spirit as an earthly Father]
7) True, although not biblically correct. Yeshua is the LAST ADAM, sometimes called the “second Adam” and I suppose the “New Adam” will work as well.
1) True, “God” spoke everything into existence. Comparing Scripture with Scripture we know that EVERYTHING was created by Yeshua. So if “God” created everything then Yeshua must be God.
Actually it was through him and for him. Sometimes you can use the word ‘by’ to mean ‘through’. Like:
You can travel to Thailand through Singapore.
You can travel to Thailand by Singapore.Jesus Christ the son of God, the messiah, Lord, and Word of God did not create the cosmos, but God created it through him and for him.
Either the son of God is the vessel through which God created all things or he did it himself. You cannot have it both ways. And scripture is clear as to which way:
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
The son of God and the Word was not God himself but is OF God and was with God in the beginning. He was the agent by which God created all things and also the agent by which God brought salvation too.
If we say he is God and not of God,. then we deny the son because he is the son of God and not God himself.
Jesus is the son of God and this is not difficult to grasp. God demonstrates this with the fact that we can be fathers and sons and clearly we are not our dads or sons. At least learn from that example that God ordained.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.T8…..what do you do with this scripture?
Isa 44:24-26….This says the LORD. thy redeemer; and he that formed you from the womb, “I”, am the LORD that makes “ALL” , that stretches forth the heavens “ALONE”; that spreads abroad the earth “BY MYSELF”; 25, That frustrates the tokens of liars, and makes devices mad; that turn wise men backward, and makes their knowledge foolish.; 26, That confirms the word of his severants, and performs the counsel of his messengers; that says to Jerusalem , Thou shall be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, you shall be built, and,” I” will raise up the decayed places thereof.
Ex 20: 2….”I” am the LORD thy God, which have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Psm 81:9…There shall be no strange god (deity) be in thee; neither shall you worship any strange god (deity). 10, “I” AM the LORD thy God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt: OPEN THY MOUTH WIDE, AND “Ì” WILL FILL IT.
TELL US T8 do you see Jesus’ name in any of this?, is he even mentioned? Was he there? If so please tell us where?
T8, you are trying to makes Jesus into a deity, as a prexisting being of some kind , and have not shown one action of him in any text proving he prexisted his berth on this earth, GOD the Father created everything in existence himself and did not do it through anyone else. You are stealing glory from GOD THE FATHER, and giving it to Jesus , something he NEVER DID.
LIKE THE SAYING GOES, Rob Peter to pay Paul. , you Rob GOD THE FATHER and pay JESUS a man. Remember what happened to Moses when he stole GOD’S GLORY at the waters of Meriba. He broke faith with God and suffered for it. Be careful you don’t fall into that same fate.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Nick: Hi Mike,
But for us there is one God, The Father..
Are you among the us?
I am among the “us” that Paul mentioned. Are you? Do you accept the other part of that verse you quoted, which says there are indeed many gods, both on earth and in heaven? How about his teaching in Phil 2:6-8 about Jesus having existed in one form before emptying himself to be made in the likeness of a human being?
T8: Hi Mike.
I thought your post above was good and honest.
Aren’t all my posts? 🙂 Okay, they aren’t all “good”, but everything I post here is my honest understanding/interpretation. I have been wrong on numerous occasions, and there are millions of things I can only guess at because I simply don’t know the answer to them… but I have never intentionally lied to you guys.
Hey D4T, you seemed agreeable to the scriptural fact that there exist many powerful gods. Some, like Michael and Gabriel, still serve their own God. Others, like Satan and his angels, have rebelled against their God. Are you still on board with that?
Sure. These demi-gods have shaped history from the beginning.
satan is called the “god of this world“.
II Cor 4:3-4 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
But I would never take this understanding over the intended meaning.
I Cor 8:4-6 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
We know that there is only one true God and many imposters. Some have this knowledge and the freedom it affords. Some are slaves to the deception of these false gods.
And to harmonize this point with the previous one, without Yeshua none of these entities would exist (including satan) without His creation. Because He (Jesus/Yeshua) created all things and nothing that was created was created without Him. That includes things in heaven and earth, principalities and powers!
Your quote T8: “without him nothing was made that has been made.”
What have you to say about that?
If God made ALL things through him, then obviously nothing was made without him.
Anthony…..We are bodies, that have breath of life in us, making us a “living” soul, spirits are not bodies or souls, they are what is “IN” the “soul” body. The leave when the “living” soul dies becomes a dead soul, and goes to coruption. The spirits return unto him who gave it. Just that simple. No secret mystery still alive after death stuff. We are truly completely dead when we die, and unless we attain unto the resurection of the dead we will stay that way for ever, just as Jesus would have if God did not raise him from the grave where he was “dead” according to him that is. “FOR I WAS “DEAD” AND AM ALIVE FOR EVERMORE.”
IT all boils down to if we believe Jesus or not, I believe when he said he was dead he truly meant it.
Peace and love to you and yours ………gene
Paul was convinced that away from the body, he was present with the Lord. I believe Paul.
Moses and Elijah appeared to some of the disciples.
Too many verses and witnesses attest to these things which are written.
T8…..Paul never said that is what happens , he said he would “rather be” absent from the body and be present with the lord. That is not saying thats what actually happens. People assume that, just more pagan after life infusion into scriptures.
T8…..read Heb 11:13-40, Verses 39 says…..And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, recieved not the promise. 40, …God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Tell us T8, What do you do with these clearly written scriptures, do you just ignore them, and move on with pagan concepts of life continuing after death? We are told to come out of “mystery religious” concepts.
The only way a person can live again after death, is by being resurected from the grave exactly as Jesus was, and that is with a flesh and bone body, with the breath of God added into it, all done by the spirit of him that raised Jesus our lord from his grave. It is apsolute crucial we attain unto the resurection from the dead, exactly as Jesus did. He is the “first” of many brethern to be resurected.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Hi Gene.
I am not convinced that the Soul Sleep doctrine is real.
Yes as you say, Paul was expressing his desire which was to be away from the body and be PRESENT with the Lord.
That said, the desire doesn’t mean it is no reality. I desire that there is a God who is love, but that doesn’t negate that truth because I desire it, no I desire it because that is a thing I can have. So let’s look at other scripture to clear this up for you.
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me.
So for Paul, dying is gain. So what you are saying Gene is not existing is gain because that is what you believe happens when you are away from the body.
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Yes, this can be read two ways. Today Jesus said…. Or this day you will actually be in Paradise.
Back in the day there were two places in Hades. The place for the righteous and another for the wicked. When Jesus preached to the dead, he could have preached victory over death to the righteous. So it would have been that day in Paradise as there was a beautiful place where Abraham was. Further, we see that graves were opened up and many walked around like Jesus and then Jesus was taken up. It seems therefore logical that the dead were raised with Jesus then we who are alive and remain will later be taken up to meet them in the clouds. You assume that these dead were switched to non-existence again.
So you believe that these were raised because God thought it a good idea and then put back in the grave. Yet you have zero proof, only a doctrine to preserve at all costs.
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