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Anthony ….well and good, we both tried so time will tell who was right and who was wrong, I feel me and Jodi have presented solid and sound scriptures that completely support what we have said, and I stand by them completely.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Hi Anthony and t8,
So you are telling us that the teachings of Paul in Philippians 2 in the context of who Paul is speaking to, that they are to be LIKE MINDED with a spirit “WHO, being in the form of God, THOUGHT it not robbery to be equal with God”?
To ALL,
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
JESUS had RETURNED FROM the JORDAN having been FILLED with the Holy Spirit and Power.
Such was prophesy fulfilled, and unlike those Paul speaks of in Philippians and Corinthians, Jesus of Nazareth, “a man approved of by God“, he received of the Spirit not by measure, he received ALL the gifts without measure.
11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; BECAUSE the LORD hath ANOINTED me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have RAISED him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
JESUS is THIS MAN, he is NOT the one who created heaven and earth, he is the HUMAN who God raised up in righteousness, he is the man who God directs all his ways, he is the man that let go captives not for price or reward but because he loved his brothers and sisters.
JESUS was a Son of Man, as a Son of David and Abraham, who God had promised to them that their seed would be the ANOINTED one, set apart by receiving the Spirit of God not by measure. He is a Son of God ACCORDING to the Spirit, and when that Spirit came down like a dove upon him and abode upon him, God said “This is my beloved Son”, the son of David who God promised to beget and fulfill all of God’s will, be raised up to be a savior.
By this Spirit Jesus was in the form of God and JESUS did not THINK it robbery to be equal to God. Being FILLED with the Spirit and Power of God he found himself also to be of weak flesh in the likeness of men, able to be tempted. He was tested in the wilderness and tested going to the cross, where he could have used God’s powers being in the form of God to use those powers for himself to fulfill his own will, but he was a SERVANT to God, he humbled himself, even as he was numbered with transgressors, even as he was bruised and put to grief in the likeness of a sinner, he humbled himself not using God’s powers to save himself, he was a SERVANT who loved his brothers and sisters.
Paul in Philippians 2 was teaching to those who received the gifts of God’s Spirit like that of Jesus, but different than Jesus as each received according to a measure, to be LIKE MINDED with their Christ, the man they met who had been SENT out into the world beginning in Galilee, upon having God’s Spirit rest upon him, an ANOINTING. As he was SENT out by God not being of this world, they were being SENT out not being of this world. As Jesus did nothing for vein glory but to fulfill the will of God for the sake of his brethren, they also needed to do God’s work for the sake of their brethren, also not have vein glory.
Hi Anthony and t8,
Can you give us the teachings that Paul was giving in Philippians 2, with truth and understanding, utilizing other passages?
Or are we to believe from your belief, that the only lesson Paul is teaching is for us to believe that an anointed spirit named Jesus existed in the form of God and thought in his mind, as that spirit, to make himself of no reputation, but to be a servant by coming to earth to be in the likeness of a man?
Paul’s words for people to be like minded with this anointed spirit you define Jesus to be, means what exactly?
CAN you ACTUALLY explain yourselves?
Hi t8,
YOU:How does what you say null what scripture says? It doesn’t. You need to be able to handle all of scripture. If your theology lends itself to some scriptures and not others, then you have the wrong understanding. There is no contradiction Jodi.
ME: t8, let me get this straight, you taking a handful of passages to prove pre-existence equates to you handling ALL of scripture?
I have taken those handful of passages you give to support pre-existence and explained THROUGH direct multiple scriptures how you are taking those handful of verses totally out of CONTEXT. YOU don’t EVER speak of those scriptures that I give that contradict how you interpret a handful of passages. It’s like they don’t exist to you, it’s like massive parts of the entire bible are words of vanity to you, you won’t EVEN DISCUSS THEM, and you want to say it is I that needs to handle all of scripture?
As I recall your thoughts on prophecy, God’s word of what would occur in the future according to His will that He had declared before the world was, you take it as far as to say “yes Jesus fulfilled a number of prophecies”. That’s it? That ALL you have to say? That is YOUR definition of handling ALL of God’s word?
I say let’s discuss Isaiah 11, 42, 45, 53, 61, Psalms 8, Psalms 80, and apply them to some other passages and your discussion equates to “yes Jesus fulfilled a number of prophecies”, and I am the one who isn’t handling ALL of scripture, when I in fact don’t ignore at ALL the handful of scriptures that you give me, instead I give multiple other scriptures to back up my understanding of those handful of scriptures. YOU in the meantime IGNORE the mass quantity of scriptures I give you.
Hi Jodi and Gene
we been through this before, I’m all set with you two. you’ll have to wait to someone new comes on the site then can you can go through the same stuff again, which would be you two trying to decieve the newcomers. As far as me I don’t want to go through it again with you.
May God save you 🙏
Anthony,
I don’t ever recall you explaining Philippians 2 as to the message Paul is teaching in that chapter. I don’t ever recall you explaining “let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus”.
Hi Gene,
I love your level of godly patience that I see on this forum. When the word of God is so clear and true to us, I think we both agree that we have absolutely no problem repeating our understanding along with the scriptures that support it, again and again. For me I just become more versed in God’s word, it also gives me the opportunity to dig further and deeper, dissecting over and over passages and chapters and discovering knew verses that give further understanding to other passages.
I continue to ADD passages weekly to the defense of my understanding of certain passages, which is certainly the case debating Luke 2:11, unfortunately all t8 has is to just continue posting just 2:11 over and over again. He won’t even discuss the scriptures given to him that we see fit and bother to explain how it is they don’t apply.
This passage is a recent add to my defense of John 17:5
25 Then he said unto them,O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
After Jesus rose from the dead he was TEACHING about himself through what the prophets wrote about him.
Here you have a Son of Man resurrected as the firstborn of the dead of many brothers and sisters teaching to his disciples about what the prophets wrote concerning him. He’s not talking about the glory of a spirit. He on the contrary is having them touch and feel him to know that he is a man and not a spirit and he is teaching them of the glory that he has that was according to prophecy, no doubt he spoke to them of Psalms 8.
It is far from the mind of many on this forum, to believe that when the Son of Man was asking to receive glory from God just prior to him going to the cross, that he would be asking for the glory that the prophets spoke of concerning a Son of Man. It is likewise far from their mind that this glory was a promise of God for the Son of Man before the world was.
They can’t possible equate that God’s word of a coming man who God would be mindful of and visit and crown with glory and give dominion of the works of His hands to, would be God’s word before the world was. They are far from understanding God’s WORD, that what He said to the prophets concerning what would occur in the future would be in fact His word also from the beginning. He does not change, nor does His will that He planned out for earth, before He created earth, change.
God bless you brother Gene, let us continue in our patience.
Hi Anthony,
YOU:
Me: as T8 already told you>> but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Jodi you say Jesus Christ didn’t pre- exit, you have been decieved.
Good post T8, thanks for sharing.
ME: Anthony, I will respond to each one of these AGAIN so called pre-existent proofs. The question is CAN YOU then discuss the passages I give to support that you are interpreting them wrong and specifically say how those passages do not apply or do not change your interpretation?
Jodi….Something to think about, in these debates we are caused to dig deeper and deeper into scriptures which not only teaches us more but strenghtens our resolve as we see clearer and clearer . So it does help us to grow, even if they aren’t . But at the same time we shouldn’t be to hard on them, because we both know this, “unless the LORD build the house the weary builders toil in vain”. So we need to just speak the word an let it fall where it may, Just as Jesus and the apostles did, those who have ears to hear “given by God the Father” will hear, those who don’t, even if Jesus himself were here speaking, they would not get it either. It’s God the Fathers call. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Hi Gene,
YES! God has a purpose for everything under heaven, and by debate reading their false doctrine it has served me in becoming more firmly established in the truth. Seeing there blindness also makes me so much more thankful for the light I have been called to see.
Hi Anthony and t8,
This is in regards to you using Micah 5:2 as proof of pre-existence.
Isaiah 46: 8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the MAN that executeth my COUNSEL from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. 19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. 20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.
Acts 2: 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate COUNCIL and FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Micah 5: 1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. 2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. 4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. 5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
OF Judah one will come forth to be ruler in Israel.
This prophecy is NOT NEW, God swore it unto the fathers FROM THE DAYS OF OLD.
Moses spoke of a prophet to come like him from among the people, who the people would hear.
Even prior, God swore to Abraham that one would come from his seed where through him all nations would be blessed.
After Moses, God swore to David and gave promises to Isaiah, concerning a man of the tribe of Judah who would one day come.
This coming of this man was told throughout history, his coming God had DETERMINED and promised even before the world was, just as God had also determined and promised eternal life before the world was.
Just as it can be said that the coming forth of the man from the tribe of Judah is from of old, likewise the coming forth of mankind receiving eternal life, is from of old, before time even began.
God’s will from the beginning, His promise, was for a man from the tribe of Judah to be raised up to be our savior, our ruler, an eternal king, who would be the firstborn of the dead of many brethren.
Titus 1: 1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Hi Anthony and t8,
Micah 5:2 DOES NOT teach that the one to come from the tribe of Judah to be a leader existed before as some anointed spirit.
Micah teaches that the prophecy of him (a man) that was to come, was an already existing prophecy. Previous prophecies directly attest to this, where it is a promise made of God from that which He had determined before the world even existed, the coming of one from the tribe of Judah to be a leader.
Jodi, nothing you have ever said about God’s plans disproves the scriptures that state that he is the Christ and that he had glory with the Father before the cosmos.
Case closed.
If God says he will send his son into the world for example, that would in no way mean he didn’t send his son into the world just because God revealed he would do it.
And if God made the cosmos through the son, that in no way means that he is talking about a future event. In that event, it would say that God will make the new cosmos through the son just like it says that all things will be made subject to God through Christ.
This teaching of yours is not backed up by the scripture you quote. Back to the drawing board Jodi.
Hi t8,
YOU:Jodi, nothing you have ever said about God’s plans disproves the scriptures that state that he is the Christ and that he had glory with the Father before the cosmos.
ME: Wouldn’t you have had to actually read all that I have said to make your statement one of ACTUAL TRUTH, lol?
Don’t you mean nothing that I have ever said that you have actually read do you believe disproves Jesus pre-existed? Haven’t you told me flat out that you don’t actually bother to read what I say?
The TRUTH is you have NO CLUE as to what I have actually ever said.
The TRUTH is t8 you have never discussed with me THE SCRIPTURES I have asked you to read that gives you the proof.
We are just suppose to believe that what I have said, that you have not read the majority of, you know is not proof and we should just take your word for it. That’s really just something else t8!!
T8…..Jodi is right, you are closed minded and don’t even consider what we have through sound scriptures shown clearly here. As long as you have the attitude, you have it right already, you will never open up your mind to see the truth. What we are saying “all” scriptures” agree with, you people on the other hand, produce a very few scriptures that many other scriptures, clearly show, you have the wrong understanding of. You people just push your false understandings, and ignore the scriptures that show you your errors. So how can you grow and come to a clearer understanding of scriptures when you simply ignore them? You seem content to sit in the ditch with the rest of the blind.
Indeed you are content to be in the wide way that leads to destruction, that the “many go in threat thereof “.
T8…The truth is found in the sum of scriptures , not just in one or two, misunderstood scriptures, and rejection of the rest that show you your errors.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Hi t8,
Micah 5:2 teaches us something critical, something our Heavenly Father really wants us to know, because He gives it to us throughout the bible.
Isaiah 46: 8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the MAN that executeth my COUNSEL from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
God wants us to know that from the beginning He had determined the END, and that which He declared from the beginning would be fulfilled. Prophecy is that which had been DETERMINED by God before the world was. God telling us something is going to happen before it happens and then it occurs, makes it known to us that God is all powerful and God is TRUE, we can have faith and hope in Him.
Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. 7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. 8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.
SANCTIFIED is QADASH meaning to be consecrated, set apart, dedicated, be hallowed, to be holy.
Luke 1:31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 And he will reign over Israel forever; his Kingdom will never end!” 34 Mary asked the angel, “But how can this happen? I am a virgin.” 35 The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God.
John 10: 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
t8, just as God KNEW Jeremiah before he was even conceived, God KNEW the man Jesus. Just as Jeremiah was sanctified before he came out of the womb Jesus was sanctified before he came out of the womb. Jeremiah was sanctified to be a prophet, he did not come out of the womb with God sending him as a baby to go speak His words, it was not until later that God was WITH him to accomplish that which Jeremiah had been sanctified to do.
Jesus was sanctified not just to to be a prophet, but our savior, our Messiah, our king of kings, our lord of lords, which the LORD God spoke of prior in prophecies from David and Isaiah. Likewise Jesus didn’t come out of the womb being sent out to accomplish that which he had been sanctified to do, God visited him and rested His Spirit upon him, an anointing, LATER. Later he was sent having God with him to accomplish that which God had sanctified him to do.
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
HE, Jesus of Nazareth is a MAN who God ordained, who God anointed with His Spirit, God KNEW him before he was formed in the womb, God sanctified him before he came out of the womb. Before time even began God had determined him to be anointed sent out, die for our sins and be the firstborn of the dead of many brethren having eternal life.
1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
THE GLORY Jesus received was of the foreknowledge of God, it was of God for the Son of Man before the world was. The Son of Man before going to the cross asked for that glory that was of God before the world was.
Just as God KNEW Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb, God KNEW JESUS, and when God was creating heaven and earth He did so through what HE KNEW, He did so through the END that He declared that He would bring forth, and all that He made, He made it FOR the one He KNEW.
t8, without the human who died for our sins all there is, is DEATH, there would be NO LIFE, NO HOPE, NO FAITH, there would have been no reason for God to create heaven and earth in the first place, all things consist IN this HUMAN, God made the world through HIS KNOWLEDGE, His determined purpose of this human.
A man was to come, a man came, a man was raised from the dead, a man sits at God’s right hand, a man is returning to complete the fulfillment of God’s will. When you apply that God KNEW all this before the world was to all scriptures there is no scripture that is trying to reveal Jesus pre-existed, those passages are directly telling us God KNEW of him, God declared him before the world was.
Hi Jodi,
YOU: For me I just become more versed in God’s word, it also gives me the opportunity to dig further and deeper, dissecting over and over passages and chapters and discovering knew verses that give further understanding to other passages.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,
THAT IN ALL THINGS
HE MAY HOLD THE PRIMACY:
Jodi can you dig a bit more further and deeper and explain what the phrase above actually reveals, since
JESUS HOLD THE PRIMACY OF
ALL THINGS
CONSIDERING THAT THE VERY FIRST THING OCCURRED WAS WHEN GOD PRONOUNCED
LET THERE BE LIGHT
BY WHICH WORDS :
“THE WORD” AS A SPIRIT, THE SON OF MAN TO BE,
JESUS BECAME THE PRIMACY OF
THE BEGINNING !
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the MAN that executeth my COUNSEL
Yes, God declares things in advance. Anyone who believes that the Bible is prophetic, will accept that. And yes Jesus is was a man. He emptied himself and came in the flesh. Wondrous works and grace from God to send his only son to bring many sons into that glory that he had before the cosmos.
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