John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 18,081 through 18,100 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #803409
    terraricca
    Participant

    Edj

    Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me:

    there’s nothing wrong in the above verse and one thing it was not Jesus Christ but Jesus only for he did not yet came has the Christ ;

    and yes Jeremy said that the WORD (Jesus) came to him ,very true

    as for Jesus being Michael this is ridicule at best and non scriptural ,I am ready and have debate this with the JW’s non could prove that it was has they say it was ,lies ,

    now if you have more scriptures go for it ,;but be clear in what you claim

    #803417
    Ed J
    Participant

    Edj

    Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me:

    there’s nothing wrong in the above verse and [b](1)one thing it was not Jesus Christ[/b] but Jesus only for he did not yet came has the Christ ;

    and yes Jeremy said that [b](2)the WORD (Jesus) came to him[/b] ,very true

    1) Here you say “No” (agreeing with me, as T8 already has done)
    2) Here you say “Yes” (disagreeing with what you just agreed to)

    MAKE UP YOUR MIND

    #803418
    kerwin
    Participant

    terratica,

    2 Peter 1:21New English Translation (NET Bible)

    21 for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

    According to this passage the spoken word came to Jeremiah as well as the other prophets.

    Jesus’ relation with the word of God is more intimate than Jeremiah or any other prophet.

    #803420
    terraricca
    Participant

    kerwin

    do you read those verses in truth ?

    2Pe 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    what does it really says is this ;first it says that the origin is not of man ;but men had spoken from God as they were “CARRIED ALONG BY THE HOLY SPIRIT “SPOKEN FROM GOD”” SO WHO IS CARRYING THE TRUTH OF GOD ,in my understanding it is Jesus,for he his the only son of God and the first of creation,he also is the one that has fulfilled all what has been announced about him in the scriptures ,and in revelation it tell the name he has “THE WORD OF GOD”

    the holy spirit of truth are the words and will spoken by God for us man

    #803424
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    In the passage from Peter, it specifically states that the Spirit of God caries the truth of God.

    Scripture teaches us that God did foretell he would put his Spirit on Jesus and then Jesus would proclaim justice to the nations. (Matthew 12:18)

    Matthew 12:18New English Translation (NET Bible)

    18
    “Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
    the one I love, in whom I take great delight.
    I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

    #803428
    terraricca
    Participant

    kerwin

    you are hard to understand truth ;those words are from the prophecy Isa 42:1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
    my chosen one in whom I delight;
    I will put my Spirit on him
    and he will bring justice to the nations.

    did Jesus received that godly spirit ?so yes he did

    Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

    Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
    Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    #803429
    terraricca
    Participant

    Edj

    1) Here you say “No” (agreeing with me, as T8 already has done)
    2) Here you say “Yes” (disagreeing with what you just agreed to)

    MAKE UP YOUR MIND

    read what i said ,I am not mixed up you are

    #803433
    Ed J
    Participant

    the holy spirit of truth are the words and will spoken by God for us man

    Hi Pierre,

    The HolySpirit of truth is “The Word” spoken by God to man.
    And I did read what you said, it seems you have a few things mixed up.
    [b]Are you suggesting that Jesus was not the Christ until he was baptized?[/b]

    #803434
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    According to Scripture it is the Spirit that makes God know. The Spirit made God known to Jesus and through him to all that believe.

    1 Corinthians 2:10Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    God foretells he will but his Spirit on Jesus after he foretold Jesus’ coming through Isaiah.

    #803435
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    Is Jesus Christ the word?

    Yes.

    Was Jesus always the Word?

    No not till he became the Christ when the Word was made flesh at the Jordan.

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Admin.
    #803437
    terraricca
    Participant

    kerwin

    1 Corinthians 2:10Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    it should read like this ;But God hath revealed them unto us by his “HIS TRUTH” : for the “TRUTH” searcheth all things, yea, the deep “TRUE “things of God…

    #803438
    terraricca
    Participant

    nICK

    No not till he became the Christ when the Word was made flesh at the Jordan.

    wrong ,”THE WORD” ALIAS Jesus ,alias the Christ ,and return to be “THE WORD” ;Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    pAUL ALSO KNEW THIS ;FOR HE WROTE ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He(Jesus) is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    John the baptist also knew this and says ;Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    you see Nick I don’t even have to interpret the scriptures it is just has it says ,

    #803446
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Terricca……The whole concept of Jesus preexisting his berth onthe earth, is a false teaching, started by those who viewed him as a GOD, THE GNOSTIC’S. NICK is right THE WORD OF GOD CAM TO BE “IN” JESUS AT THE JORDAN RIVER, that is why he is call the ANOINTED OF GOD OR MESSIAH. KERWIN IS ALSO RIGHT, THE SPIRIT OF GOD CAME TO BE “IN” JESUS WHICH PRODUCED THE WORDS OF GOD IN HIM WHICH HE SPOKE TO US.

    “God who “spoke” in times past “through” the prophets, has in theses latter days spoken to us “THROUGH” A SON”. It was GOD THE FATHER SPEAKING THROUGH JESUS, NOT JESUS , OR don’t you believe Jesus when he said, “the words i am telling are not “MY” WORDS, but the words of him who sent me”.

    What does those scriptures mean to you brother? We can’t act as if they do not exist now can we?

    peace and love to you and yours. …………..gene

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Admin.
    #803448
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    Many do not understand that the scriptures describe the works of the Spirit among men

    and so they ascribe to mere men what the Spirit does.

    Get balm for your eyes.

    #803449
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    And do not be confused by prophetic words.

    Scripture treats the future as the present.

    #803450
    terraricca
    Participant

    Gene/Nick

    honestly /seriously ,I quoted scriptures ,you ignore them ,and there are no prophecies in the scriptures I have quoted you ,and I did not change or altered or give opinions to it ;

    and you tell me that I do not understand scriptures ? are you on pills ? does the truth from scriptures repulse you ,?

    this is a parable where Jesus illustrate what God did with Israel ;
    Lk 20:9 He went on to tell the people this parable: “A man(GOD) planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers(Israel) and went away for a long time.
    Lk 20:10 At harvest time he sent a servant(Prophets) to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit(obedience to his laws) of the vineyard. But the tenants(leaders of Israel) beat him and sent him away empty-handed.
    Lk 20:11 He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed.
    Lk 20:12 He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
    Lk 20:13 “Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son(Jesus), whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.’
    Lk 20:14 “But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. ‘This is the heir,’ they said. ‘Let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’
    Lk 20:15 So they threw him out of the vineyard(outside of Jerusalem) and killed him.
    “What then will the owner(God) of the vineyard do to them?
    Lk 20:16 He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others(gentiles).”

    truth is all over but you guys seem to rejected for your own opinions ,you are not rejecting me but Jesus and his father ,

    #803451
    terraricca
    Participant

    Gene

    Terricca……The whole concept of Jesus preexisting his berth onthe earth, is a false teaching, started by those who viewed him as a GOD, THE GNOSTIC’S. NICK is right THE WORD OF GOD CAM TO BE “IN” JESUS AT THE JORDAN RIVER, that is why he is call the ANOINTED OF GOD OR MESSIAH. KERWIN IS ALSO RIGHT, THE SPIRIT OF GOD CAME TO BE “IN” JESUS WHICH PRODUCED THE WORDS OF GOD IN HIM WHICH HE SPOKE TO US.

    “God who “spoke” in times past “through” the prophets, has in theses latter days spoken to us “THROUGH” A SON”. It was GOD THE FATHER SPEAKING THROUGH JESUS, NOT JESUS , OR don’t you believe Jesus when he said, “the words i am telling are not “MY” WORDS, but the words of him who sent me”.

    What does those scriptures mean to you brother? We can’t act as if they do not exist now can we?

    you even don’t understand the scriptures you quote ,

    it confirm what i said with the other scriptures :Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things…

    why did you have to change scriptures ? it says “HIS SON” AND USSING ONE PERSON FOR ANOTHER DOES NOT CHANGE THAT, THAT PERSON IS WHAT HE IS ;THE VERY ONLY SON OF GOD ,THE FIRST OF/over ALL CREATION ;

    until you will stop to change the scriptures and accept the truth thereof ,you will never be a true believer in the truth of God and his son ,

    is Jesus the son of God a god ? of course he is a god but not his God and father ;but he is the second in command ,can you not understand this ?

    all things were created through him says scriptures ;do scriptures lie ? if this then is true HE HAS TO EXIST PRIOR TO THOSE THINGS THAT WERE CREATED RIGHT ? YES

    this is not a new revelation it is common sense ,just as “if you exist you must acknowledge the existence of your father and mother ,for without them you would not be there ;and so on .

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Admin.
    #803453
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    Confidence in your opinions is not an indicator of veracity.

    #803454
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    So you have concluded that the word truth is a synonym for the word truth.

    I do not agree with that conclusion but I do not want to address it at this time unless this conversation get side tracked since it really does not change anything in my point.

    John 1:18New English Translation (NET Bible)

    18 No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

    My point being is that Scripture teaches us that the Spirit, which you say is truth, is in closest fellowship with God and makes God known.

    1 Corinthians 2:11New English Translation (NET Bible)

    11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So too, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

    There is no closer fellowship that that between a human and his spirit or between God and his Spirit, which you conclude is a synonym of his truth. The Spirit also make the deep things of God, which is to say God, known.

    God told Isaiah to foretell that the Servant of God would be given the Spirit in Isaiah’s future and the Servant is Jesus Christ and when he received the God was made known to him even as he then made God known to others.

    Do you believe Jesus lacked the truth of God before he was given the Spirit by God?

    Do you believe he existed before God gave him the Spirit?

    #803455
    terraricca
    Participant

    kerwin

    My point being is that Scripture teaches us that the Spirit, which you say is truth, is in closest fellowship with God and makes God known.

    Jn 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your(God) word is truth.

    JN 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
    JN 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
    JN 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
    1JN 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

    you suppose to argue the truth versus the errors in people ,but you cannot argue the word of God for you are not a god and the source of the truth ,

    you can start a new topic if you want and we can discuss it their ;

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