John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 18,061 through 18,080 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #803045
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…..Did you miss the part that say “and the word “was GOD”? GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE AND THE SAME THING, WHY STILL THE Glory that belongs to the Father and give it to JESUS CHRIST? YOU MUST ALSO HAVE MISSED WHERE MOSES said the LORD, would raise up “FROM THEM A PROPHET, “LIKE” HIM. SO YOU BELIEVEJesus was not ACTUALLY like him right?, but was completely different and GOD DID not raise him up from A tribe of ISREAL, but instead morphed him from one state of existence, into a human being. But not so much as a singl scriptureeven hints at that.

    As i have said you have come part way out for false teachings, but not all the way out, on the one hand you say JESUS WAS NOT A GOD,BUT ON THE OTHER YOU PORTRAY HIM AS A GOD, NOT A “real” HUMAN BEING LIKE WE ARE. So if Jesus was not truly a human being exactly like the rest of humanity, then his death could not apply to the human race either, that is because to you he was not a human, like we are at all. You are moving JESUS AWAY FROM HIS BROTHERS AND SISTERS BY YOUR false assumptions. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene

    #803046
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    Please explain how and why the Word was WITH God.

    Look at these poetic words of Isaiah where he speaks of the word departing from God to do their task(s).

    Isaiah 55:11Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    11
    so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
    it shall not return unto me void,
    but it shall accomplish that which I please,
    and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    Scripture tells us the word is both with him when he speaks it and will return to him after it has accomplished the his desires.

    John’s words sound poetic but so do Isaiah’s and other writers.

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by Admin.
    #803050
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    Please explain how the world was made through him yet did not recognise him when he appeared to them.

    Scripture teaches us that.

    Hebrews 11:3Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    #803051
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    Please explain why he is called “The Word of God” yet wasn’t that particular Word of God that was WITH God in the beginning (even though we are told that Jesus too was in the beginning).

    I assume you are addressing the words of a passage in Revelations that states:

    Revelation 19:13Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    the short definition of Strong’s 3686 is ” name, character, reputation” according to biblehub.com.

    His name is Jesus;given to Mary by an angel. His character is the word of God.

    #803053
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    Please explain why it is written that God made all things through him and for him with no reference to the Word in those particular verses.

    You are speaking of the passage from Colossians 1 that speaks of the word that is flesh. At that time Paul is address the union that contains both the human Jesus and the word of God.

    Considering that it is reasonable to conclude God made all things through the word part of the union and either for the union of Jesus Christ and the Word.

    The fact Paul does not mention the word of God only means he assumes his readers will understand it is there just like you assume Son means Jesus Christ.

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by Admin.
    #803067
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    T8…..ANOTHER POINT BROTHER IS THIS Luk 2:52… “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.”

    If he preexisted how could he increase in wisdom and favor with GOD. IF God created EVERYTHING THROUGH him, how could he increase in favor with GOD, how could you get in more favor WITH GOD, IF HE CREATED EVERY THING THROUGH YOU?

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

    who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    This scripture explains your concerns.

    He existed in the form of God and emptied himself and was made in the likeness of men.

    So he was born like us in the respect that he was a baby who had to grow up and learn like us. He had to learn to walk, talk, and understand the scriptures too. It took time, but he increased in wisdom and stature and found favour with God, just as we can. He came in the flesh and lived among us as one of us. He did this so he could save us because death came into the world through one man, so God gave life through one man, the man Christ Jesus.

    #803099
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @Kerwin

    I did answer it by pointing out every human being comes in the flesh. The word took on the characteristic of humanity. In short both came in the flesh. Jesus Christ embodies the word that comes out of God mouth. For the same reason he is also called the power and wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:24)

    Please explain which of these is actually Jesus:

    1. Jesus is the union/combination of flesh and word;
    2. Jesus is the flesh and the word was in him;
    3. Jesus was the word that was with God, but came in the flesh for our sake;
    4. None of the above.
    #803100
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Neither Love or the Word are beings.

    When the word came in the flesh, it didn’t become a being?

    #803101
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @GeneBalthrop

    T8…..Did you miss the part that say “and the word “was GOD”?

    Did you really think I missed that?

    The Word was theos. We have all debated this one too many times for me to bring it up here. But whatever the view, none of them back your stance that Jesus is but a man who was created 2000 or so years ago. Because God made all things through the son of God and for him and the same thing is said of the Word.

    The Word was theos can be read as the Word was divine, due to the lack of definite article. We already know that Jesus existed in the form of God and EMPTIED himself right, and came in the flesh. But let’s take the view that the Word was actually God himself.

    So the beginning spoken of is when the Word was WITH God. We know that God has no beginning. He is eternal. So previous to the beginning when the Word was WITH God, the Word was actually God. Thus God had the word within himself, and the beginning spoken of here is when the Word was brought forth from God so that the Word was WITH God.

    To you, Jesus is a 2000 year old man. To me, he is the Word of God who was with God and then came in the flesh. He is even called ‘The Word of God’ in case there was any confusion.

    Have you answered this yet?

    The Word was with God right. Please explain.

    #803103
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    JESUS WAS NOT A GOD,BUT ON THE OTHER YOU PORTRAY HIM AS A GOD, NOT A “real” HUMAN BEING LIKE WE ARE.

    No. He was the Word that became flesh. He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right-hand of the Father in the glory he had with him before the Cosmos.

    See that Gene. I do not say he is a god/God, he is the Word of God who came in the flesh. God made all things through him and for him.

    He came to his own and even though all things were created through him, they did not recognise him.

    You do not recognise Jesus as the one whom God created the cosmos through.

    In your religion, who was the first to be with God? Michael? Gabriel?

    #803104
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Scripture teaches us that.

    Hebrews 11:3Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    John 1:10
    He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

    Kerwin. Who is HE in this verse?

    #803105
    942767
    Participant

    And so, t8, what was that that was spoken through him, if as you say “he was the Word of God that was made flesh”? He stated that:

    John 12:

    47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    And he stated in John 6:

    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    He was in the form of God in his ministry on earth and is as the head of the church as God’s Christ.

    John 5:

    18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

    21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

    22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

    23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

    And after his resurrection he stated:

    Matthew 28:

    18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by Admin.
    #803107
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You have just explained why he is called the Word of God. He chooses to speak that which the Father says, and does not speak for himself.

    At the cross he asked God to remove the cup from him, but not his will but the Father’s will. So he also chooses to do the will of God.

    He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, was obedient until death, rose from the dead, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

    #803108
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    Unless the “he” in John 1:10 is John the Baptist then their is no evidence beyond the opinion of a number of translators that the correct English pronoun is he. There is no actual Koine Greek pronoun behind the “he” and the one that is behind the “him” in “created by him” does not go with the noun “light” in verse 9 as the Koine word behind “light” is a neuter gendered noun and the word behind the “him” is a masculine gendered pronoun.

    Assuming John is not speaking of John the Baptist whose name is a masculine noun it follows that John has began speaking of the word once more. The fact he mentioned “the world was created by him” in verse and “All things were created by him” in verse 3 is the context that confirms the word has one more become the subject of John’s writing.

    I think it is poor pronoun use in English but John did not write in English. In English Light is the noun that would be substituted for by the “him” but that does not work in Koine Greek.

    I am not sure why you ask who the “he” is except to reveal that English and Koine Greek grammar are quite different.

    #803109
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    1) Jesus is the union/combination of flesh and word;
    2) Jesus is the flesh and the word was in him;
    3) Jesus was the word that was with God, but came in the flesh for our sake;
    4) None of the above.

    I am sorry but I do understand your question correctly as 1,2, and 3 sound paraphrases of one another.

    Jesus is the human being but he is also flesh and word since God’s Word took on the characteristics of humanity by uniting with him. He is also the word that united with flesh for our sake.

    In Jewish thought, a name is not merely an arbitrary designation, a random combination of sounds. The name conveys the nature and essence of the thing named. It represents the history and reputation of the being named. (Tracey R Rich, “Name of G_d“)

    The nature and essence of the Word of God took on the characteristics of the nature and essence of humanity, aka flesh.

    In short the two become one.

    Another way to say it referencing the words of Jeremiah 31:31 is that God put his word in Jesus and wrote it on his heart and mind.

    The word was with God before he placed it in Jesus. He did that and wrote it on Jesus’ mind and heart for our sake.

    #803152
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Unless the “he” in John 1:10 is John the Baptist then their is no evidence beyond the opinion of a number of translators that the correct English pronoun is he.

    Besides the context being about Jesus, lets imagine that Jesus is not the Word of God and make a list of attributes of the Word and Jesus.

    John 1 is clearly a chapter about Jesus. In fact the whole book of John is about Jesus.

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

    6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

    9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

    Now in case you haven’t noticed, all that is spoken here of as the Word is also spoken of as Jesus elsewhere in scripture.

    The Word:

    With God in the beginning
    Through him, all things were made
    In him is life
    Is the true light
    Was in the world
    The world was made through him

    Jesus:

    with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
    and through whom also he made the universe.
    I am the way and the truth and the life
    I am the light of the world
    God sent his Son into the world
    For in him all things were created

    Below are the scriptures from where I made the quotes under the heading ‘Jesus’, just to prove they are indeed talking specifically about Jesus and not the Word:

    John 17:5
    “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    Hebrews 1:2
    but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    John 14:6
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    John 8:12
    When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

    John 3:17
    God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

    Colossians 1:16
    For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    #803153
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I am sorry but I do understand your question correctly as 1,2, and 3 sound paraphrases of one another.

    Kerwin, I will get back to you on this one..

    A quick question for now.

    For you, is the Word alive or is it a force of some kind?

    #803392
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8……let me paraphrase it for you, JOHN 1:1-… In the beginning was the word, the word was with GOD and was GOD, HE (GOD) was with in the beginning. Through HIM (GOD) all things were made; without HIM (GOD) nothing was was made that has been made. In HIM (GOD) was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines into darkness, and the darkness does not overcome it.

    There was a man who was sent from GOD his name was John. He came as a witness to testify of that light, so that through him all might believe, he himself was not that light, he came only as a witness to the light.

    The true light that gives light to everyone was comming into the world, HE (GOD THE FATHER) WAS IN THE WORLD, AND THOUGH THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM (GOD THE FATHER) , THE WORLD DID NOT RECONIZE HIM (GOD THE FATHER).

    DO “YOU”, RECONIZE, GOD THE FATHER “IN” JESUS IS THE QUESTION T8. It was God the Father who was in the world in his son and our fellow human brother JESUS.

    Can you say as Thomas did , my lord (adoni) the human ruler JESUS, “AND” my GOD (adonia) THE ALMIGHTY GOD , can you see that clearly t8?

    peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by Admin.
    #803394
    kerwin
    Participant

    @t8,

    Sorry for being so slow to respond.

    Hebrews 4:12New English Translation (NET Bible)

    12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart.

    It is not a living creature though Jesus, who now gives it body, is.

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by Admin.
    #803405
    Ed J
    Participant

    Good Job Gene!

    I was about to use numbers (Gematria) in the new thread[color=white]…[/color][b][size=15]([url=https://heavennet.net/forums/topic/abomination-of-desolation-setting-the-record-straight-on-what-it-is/#post-803399]Link[/url])[/size][/b][color=white]…[/color]that I just started, but instead
    I decided to follow your advice, which was (in essence), Ed J your knowledge of Scripture
    is enough to convince other believers the truth of what “The Bible” actually says.

    Again thanks for the advice!

    _______________
    Your Brother
    in Christ
    Ed J

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