John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,621 through 16,640 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #377731
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,April 13 2014,14:00][/quote]

    Quote
    Jesus was immortal after his resurrection and had at the least the same power he had before his death.

    Kerwin,

    WHEN JESUS' BODY ,THE SON OF MAN WAS IN THE TOMB FOR THREE DAYS!

    JESUS' SOUL THE HOLY SPIRIT THE SON OF GOD,

    IN THE SAME  INSTANT JESUS DIED, GLORIFIED AND OWNED JESUS' BODY

    THE WORD MADE FLESH JESUS CHRIST,

    HE LEFT JESUS'BODY, TOOK SATAN WITH HIM TO HELL AND MANIFESTED HIS GLORIFICATION BOTH IN FLESH AND SPIRIT IN FIRE!

    AND CONFIRMED HIS UNIQUE ABSOLUTE ONENESS!

    HE WAS ALONE IN THAT STATE!

    BOTH GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST FROM GOD SIDE POINT OF VIEW!

    NOW READ AND DISCERN IF YOU WANT!

    Daniel 3:25 He answered, and said: Behold I see four men loose, and walking in the midst of the fire, and there is no hurt in them, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

    OK?

    THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR:

    THE THREE MEN REPRESENT THE WORD THE TRIUNE MEDIATOR CREATOR GOD, WHO CREATED ALL

    AND THE SON OF GOD REPRESENTS, THE WORD MADE FLESH THE HOLY SPIRIT JESUS' SOUL WHO REDEEMED ALL!

    WHEN JESUS RESURRECTED HE WAS FOR SURE BODY WISE ONLY, IN A HIGHER STATE  THAN HE WAS WHEN HE WALKED ON EARTH, OBVIOUS, HE WAS PERFECT WITH BOTH GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT AND FLESH BODY,

    FROM HUMAN SIDE POINT OF VIEW THOUGH! FLESH BODY!

    SO HE NEVER HAD THE FULL POWER OF GOD, SINCE THE HOLY SPIRIT, HIS SOUL, WAS STILL IN HELL,

    ON THE THIRD NIGHT, THAT SAME EVENING HE RESURRECTED, THE HOLY SPIRIT INTEGRATED WITH JESUS AND RESTORED HIS ORIGINAL PREVIOUS BODY!

    THEREFORE SOUL AND BODY!

    IN FULL POWER OF GOD LIKE HE WAS WHEN HE WAS LIKEWISE SOUL AND BODY

    SO AGAIN!

    WHEN HE RESURRECTED HE NEVER HAD HIS SOUL YET!

    JESUS' BODY RESURRECTED THROUGH HIS EX SPIRIT THE WORD WHICH WAS MAINTAINING SATAN'S EXISTENCE!

    BUT AS SOON AS SATAN ENTERED JESUS'S BODY INSTEAD OF KILLING HIM, LIKE HE DID TO ALL HUMANS,

    THE WORD EX JESUS' SPIRIT PASSED FROM WITHIN SATAN ONTO JESUS' BODY AND MAINTAINED HIMSELF ITS SPIRITUAL PROCESS, WHILE THE HOLY SPIRIT TOOK HOLD OF SATAN'S IN ORDER TO BOTH KEEP HIM IN EXISTENCE AND TO TAKE HIM TO HELL!

    ONE SOWS AND ONE REAPS

    FROM THAN ON SATAN REALIZED THAT HE WAS NOT AUTONOMOUS, BUT ALL THE TIME THROUGHOUT ALL THESE MILLIONS ,AND MILLIONS OF YEARS, SUBJECT TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, WITHIN THE WORD

    Peace and love Jesus

    Charles

    #377732
    carmel
    Participant

    Kerwin,

    DISCERN THE TRUTH:

    1 Corinthians 15:3 Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual.

    OK? THAT WHICH IS NATURAL FIRST; SO WE RESURRECT AS HUMANS , THAN AS SPIRITUAL!.

    THAN PAUL ASCERTAIN AGAIN AND SAID:

    1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and

    THE DEAD SHALL RISE AGAIN INCORRUPTIBLE:

    OK?  FIRST THE BODY RISE!

    THAN

    and we shall be changed.

    WE SHALL BE CHANGED

    SO JESUS DID THE SAME!

    FIRST AS A PERFECT MAN

    THAN AS GOD MAN THROUGH THE UNIFICATION OF

    HIS SOUL THE HOLY SPIRIT

    AND BODY THE WORD MADE FLESH THE SON

    IN ONE DIVINE SUBSTANCE THOUGH NOT LIKE HE WAS, WHEN HE WAS BORN!

    #377735
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……So being we are in God and in Christ Jesus will we all be one big ball of Spirit floating around some where for eternity? A Word is not Flesh and never can be Flesh, a Word is Spirit but can come to dwell in flesh, but never be it, not now or ever could.

    You are preaching a version of “MYSTERY RELIGION”. You are not producing Scripture to meet what you are saying , Just unsubstantiated teaching you have learned over many years in a false church. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

    #377741
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 14 2014,01:16)
    Carmel……So being we are in God and in Christ Jesus will we all be one big ball of Spirit floating around some where for eternity? A Word is not Flesh and never can be Flesh, a Word is Spirit but can come to dwell in flesh, but never be it, not now or ever could.

    You are preaching a version of “MYSTERY RELIGION”.  You are not producing Scripture to meet what you are saying , Just unsubstantiated teaching you have learned over many years in a false church. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene


    Gene B.

    Quote
    Carmel……So being we are in God and in Christ Jesus will we all be one big ball of Spirit floating around some where for eternity? A Word is not Flesh and never can be Flesh, a Word is Spirit but can come to dwell in flesh, but never be it, not now or ever could.

    Gene;You are disagreeing with Jesus own Words.
    The flesh of Christ is spirit,for us to eat. Read.

    John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

    John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

    John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

    John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    John 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

    John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

    John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

    John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

    John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    ARE WE TO EAT HIS FLESH AND BONES,AND DRINK HIS BLOOD? SINCE YOU SAY THAT JESUS IS STILLL FLESH.

    wakeup.

    #377744
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Wakeup……….The key is in the words “EAT” and “DRINK”, Jesus was not talking about us really eating and drinking his body or that his body ever was turned to spirit as you assume. The words eat and drink is a metaphor the meaning to take to one self,(that is what we do when we “EAT” and “DRINK” We must take the Sacrifice of Jesus , which was his body and blood, and apply it to ourselves individually. ' Trying to go beyond that by saying are we to literally eat his flesh and bones and drink his blood? since Jesus is still flesh, has nothing to do with it with the Metaphor Jesus was using at all. When the Son of MAN return he still will have a BODY and Not be Just SPIRIT. He will be seen by all human being in his body also.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene

    #377749
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 14 2014,02:27)
    Wakeup……….The key is in the words “EAT” and “DRINK”, Jesus was not talking about us really eating and drinking his body or that his body ever was turned to spirit as you assume. The words eat and drink is a metaphor the meaning to take to one self,(that is what we do when we “EAT” and “DRINK” We must take the Sacrifice of Jesus , which was his body and blood, and apply it to ourselves individually.  ' Trying to go beyond that by saying are we to literally eat his flesh and bones and drink his blood? since Jesus is still flesh,  has nothing to do with it with the Metaphor Jesus was using at all.  When the Son of MAN return he still will have a BODY and Not be Just SPIRIT. He will be seen by all human being in his body also.  

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene


    Gene B.

    It will not work.

    Jesus said it very clearly.
    My meat is food indeed;and my blood is drink indeed.
    I am that bread that came down from heaven.
    He who EAT of this bread will life forever.

    wakeup.

    #377751
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 12 2014,15:57)
    Mike

    YOU ARE ALSO A BABY WHO NEED MILK…….


    Charles,

    If it is milk I need, then why do you feed me wine from the whore of Babylon?

    Quote (carmel @ April 12 2014,15:57)
    IF JOHN WANTED TO MAKE CLEAR THAT JESUS JUST CAME DOWN, HE WOULD HAVE USED THE OTHER TERMS WHICH CLARIFIES THAT!


    You mean like, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son ?  (John 3:16)

    Or like, “God sent His only begotten Son into the world” ?  (1 John 4:9)

    In your understanding, it reads, “The Father so loved the world that He sent Himself into earth as His own only begotten Son.”

    Quote (carmel @ April 12 2014,15:57)
    BUT INSTEAD HE USED THE TERMS WHICH MAKE US AWARE  THAT JESUS RESURRECTED AS MAN LIKE HE DIED AS MAN


    Agreed.  I too believe Jesus was resurrected as a human being, with the same exact body in which he died.

    Quote (carmel @ April 12 2014,15:57)
    THAN HE INTEGRATED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR ETERNITY……..


    I haven't read anything about that in any scripture.

    Quote (carmel @ April 12 2014,15:57)
    ……..AND BECAME A FATHER LIKE HIS FATHER, AND A GOD LIKE HIS GOD!


    A Father and God LIKE his own Father and God?   ???

    So now we have two completely DIFFERENT heavenly Fathers – and two completely DIFFERENT Gods?

    #377752
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 13 2014,05:15)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2014,10:37)
    Agreed.  Jesus Christ is indeed a particular god – a god whose OWN GOD set him above his companions.

    Mike,

    GOD ALMIGHTY IS A PARTICULAR GOD…..


    Well, you said the word “particular” a lot in that post, Charles………. but I didn't see a single word that refuted what I've said in the quote box above.

    #377753
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 13 2014,08:16)
    A Word is not Flesh and never can be Flesh, a Word is Spirit but can come to dwell in flesh, but never be it, not now or ever could.

    You are preaching a version of “MYSTERY RELIGION”. You are not producing Scripture to meet what you are saying , Just unsubstantiated teaching you have learned over many years in a false church.


    Gene,

    Your second paragraph actually describes YOU. You are the one ADDING the word “IN” into John 1:14, thereby producing a “mystery religion”.

    1:14 clearly says, “The Word BECAME flesh”, but your first paragraph tells us how that is impossible.

    The God-inspired scriptures say it plainly, yet you say it is impossible. ???

    #377754
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    Quote
    DISCERN THE TRUTH:

    1 Corinthians 15:3 Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual.

    OK? THAT WHICH IS NATURAL FIRST; SO WE RESURRECT AS HUMANS , THAN AS SPIRITUAL!.

    You have couple of technical errors that can make it hard for your listener to follow your reasoning. 1) You do not list the version of Scripture you are using and 2) You list the wrong verse of 1 Corinthians 15 as your source.

    1 Corinthians 15:46 RHE
    Douay-Rheims

    Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural: afterwards that which is spiritual.

    God created the heaven and earth, the physical, first.
    God created the beasts, the natural, second.
    God created the humans, the spiritual, last.

    Scripture testifies of this as the first use of created is:

    Genesis 1:1
    Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

    1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

    The second use of the word created is:

    Genesis 1:21
    Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

    21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

    The third us of the word created is:

    Genesis 1:27
    Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

    27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

    God made mankind in own image, spiritual, but the other living things of the earth he did not. The animals are natural but we were created spiritual. They were created first and we were created last. The natural was created first and then the spiritual was created.

    #377755
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 13 2014,09:27)
    Trying to go beyond that by saying are we to literally eat his flesh and bones and drink his blood? since Jesus is still flesh,  has nothing to do with it with the Metaphor Jesus was using at all.  When the Son of MAN return he still will have a BODY and Not be Just SPIRIT. He will be seen by all human being in his body also.  


    Jesus is not still flesh, Gene.  Flesh can neither see, enter, nor inherit the kingdom of God in heaven. (John 3, 1 Cor 15)  Jesus has done all three.

    It is true that he has a body, but it is not made of flesh.

    1 John 3:2
    Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

    In your understanding, John and the others HAD already seen Jesus “as he is” – since Jesus is the same flesh and bone person who dwelled on earth for 40 days after his resurrection.

    But John says that he DOESN'T know what he will be, because he HASN'T yet seen Jesus “as he is”.

    Philippians 3
    20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

    21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body…..

    In your understanding, Jesus' new “glorious body” is exactly the same as Paul's flesh “vile body”.

    2 Corinthians 5
    1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

    2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

    4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling………..

    The above passage should tell you that we will not dwell in our “earthly tent” (our flesh body), and God will not leave us naked either.  Instead, God will provide us with a new “heavenly dwelling” (a spiritual body).

    There are many more teachings, Gene.  But any one of the three I listed should be enough for you to know that Jesus no longer exists as a flesh human being.

    #377756
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,11:41)
    God created the heaven and earth, the physical, first.
    God created the beasts, the natural, second.
    God created the humans, the spiritual, last.


    That's too much, Kerwin.

    Human beings are natural beings, originally made FROM the elements of the earth.  We were never “spiritual” beings like angels.

    Nor is any of that the subject of Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15.

    Plus, God created the spirit angels before He created the natural earth, and the natural things He place on that earth.

    #377757
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Jesus is not still flesh, Gene. Flesh can neither see, enter, nor inherit the kingdom of God in heaven. (John 3, 1 Cor 15) Jesus has done all three.

    Neither of those verses say what you want them to say. John 3 is about getting a new spirit to live by which is more important to God than the body he gives as it pleases him. 1 Corinthians 15:50 states these the combination of of flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, flesh and blood being an idiom in our culture that is used to speak of the limitations of a human body of this corrupt world, a world subject to death because of adam's choice.

    #377759
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2014,23:48)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,11:41)
    God created the heaven and earth, the physical, first.
    God created the beasts, the natural, second.
    God created the humans, the spiritual, last.


    That's too much, Kerwin.

    Human beings are natural beings, originally made FROM the elements of the earth.  We were never “spiritual” beings like angels.

    Nor is any of that the subject of Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15.

    Plus, God created the spirit angels before He created the natural earth, and the natural things He place on that earth.


    Mike,

    I do not follow Gnostic or Gnostic like teachings.  There is no mention of angels having bodies composed of spirit in Scripture.  There is a couple mentions that portray at least some angels as being creature with no body and thus spirits.  It is also possible angels change shape and can come the form of whatever pleases God.  

    Scripture speaks of the physical being created first as God created the heavens and the earth and earth is physical.  It has mass and can be touched and eaten, at least some of it.  Salt for instance.

    Scripture speaks of the natural as in beasts being created next.

    Last, Scripture state man was created image of God and his image is spiritual.

    #377783
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    You say
    'flesh and blood being an idiom in our culture'

    There is nothing more real here to men than the physical nature of our earthly bodies

    #377784
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    Yes flesh is not of the nature of God.
    Soul and spirit are

    #377790
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2014,02:46)
    Hi KW,
    You say
    'flesh and blood being an idiom in our culture'

    There is nothing more real here to men than the physical nature of our earthly bodies


    Nick,

    What does the physical nature of our bodies have to do with the natural body or the Spiritual body. Both are physical in nature as the story of creation teaches us as by the time God first created the natural on the Fifth Night and Day he had previously first created the physical on the First Night and Day.

    The natural body is a physical body as the beast have a physical body but their body is not the same as the physical body of the earth as the natural body is living and the merely physical body is not. Scripture teaches us the Spiritual body was first created on the sixth day as it was at this time that man was created in the image of God.

    Like the earth the body of man is physical and like the animals the body of man is spiritual, so also is the body of man spiritual just like than angels it was created like as God said “Let us make man to our image ….”.

    Do you believe that God created man in the image of the host he spoke to on that day?

    #377793
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    No spiritual body was created in men at the beginning.
    The spirit and soul of man do not comprise another body.

    The Spiritual body is put over the natural at the return of the Lord

    #377800
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    The physical body is merely physical it is without soul.

    The natural body is a physical body but it is more that merely physical as it has a soul in the blood, Genesis 9:4.

    The spiritual body is a physical body and it also has the soul in the blood but it has the Spirit in it judges(governs) the body, Genesis 6:3, so it is neither merely physical or merely natural.

    #377802
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW.
    Life is in the blood.
    Souls can be under the altar in heaven

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