John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,641 through 16,660 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #377803
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Human beings are natural beings, originally made FROM the elements of the earth. We were never “spiritual” beings like angels.

    God spoke to the angels and stated “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness …”

    #377804
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    Gen 6.3
    And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

    Man does not have the Spirit of God.
    He can be given that Spirit

    #377805
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2014,04:04)
    Hi KW.
    Life is in the blood.
    Souls can be under the altar in heaven


    Nick,

    The souls of certain dead are prophetically under the altar but Scripture when literally translated from Hebrew states the soul is in the blood of the living.

    Genesis 9:4
    Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)

    4 But flesh with the soul (or life) thereof, which is its blood, ye shall not eat.

    Note:  Most translations are not literal translations of the verse but rather a idea for idea translation on a word for word basis according to the dominate opinion of the translators of that version.  Genesis 6:3 is similar though I have found not that translated the Hebrew word to “judge” which is its literal English counterpart.

    #377811
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW
    SOUL=LIFE

    #377815
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    That is what many translators seem to believe as when Rachel was dying it was stated her soul left her body, Genesis 35:16-18.

    #377825
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,11:54)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Jesus is not still flesh, Gene.  Flesh can neither see, enter, nor inherit the kingdom of God in heaven. (John 3, 1 Cor 15)  Jesus has done all three.

    Neither of those verses say what you want them to say.  


    I don't “want” them to say anything, Kerwin.  I just understand them in the most logical and sensible way they can be understood – the way that aligns with the other scriptural teachings on this same subject.

    You, on the other hand, bend over backwards to pretend those passages say anything other than the most logical and sensible thing – since you have man-made doctrines to protect.

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,11:54)
    John 3 is about getting a new spirit to live by which is more important to God than the body he gives as it pleases him.


    Flesh gives birth to flesh, so we must be born again, Kerwin.  Now tell me, does receiving the Spirit from God cause us to no longer be flesh?  Are we really “born again” if we receive God's Spirit but remain in the same flesh body we have always been in?

    The teaching is that because flesh gives birth to flesh, we must be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to see or enter heaven.

    Remaining flesh beings defeats the purpose, since no matter how much Spirit God gives us, we are still those same sinful flesh beings we have always been.

    Your understanding seems to be:  Flesh gives birth to flesh, but that is okay as long as that flesh being is filled with God's Spirit.  But that teaching doesn't fit the CONTRAST Jesus was making between flesh and spirit, nor does it call for a rebirth.  It only calls for a Spirit to be placed in what we already are.

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,11:54)
    1 Corinthians 15:50 states these the combination of of flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, flesh and blood being an idiom in our culture that is used to speak of the limitations of a human body of this corrupt world, a world subject to death because of adam's choice.


    “Flesh and blood” MORE LIKELY being an idiom referring to “human beings” – as it VIRTUALLY ALWAYS refers to in scripture.

    You think it doesn't in 1 Cor 15, but once again, that is only because you have your own personal man-made doctrines to consider.

    #377826
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,12:06)

    Mike,

    I do not follow Gnostic or Gnostic like teachings.  


    Please explain to me what that statement means, Kerwin.

    For example, Gnostics believe in God.  Are you saying you DON'T?

    I don't know the technical term for this kind of ad hominem, but it is similar to “guilt by association”.

    In your mind, the Gnostics are “bad”, and therefore you think you can make my points null and void by associating those points with Gnostic beliefs.

    But I also believe many things the JWs believe.  Can you rightly just dismiss those things BECAUSE JWs also believe them?

    I believe many things Trinitarians also believe.  Can you dismiss those things simply BECAUSE Trinitarians also believe them?

    Heck, I might even believe certain things Mormons and Muslims and Catholics believe.  Should those beliefs of mine be dismissed by you because they are “guilty by association”?

    Let's try to stick to the scriptures, and not dismiss another person's beliefs out of hand because another “frowned upon” group of people also hold that belief, okay?

    #377833
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,12:06)
    There is no mention of angels having bodies composed of spirit in Scripture.


    Read 2 Cor 5:1-5, Kerwin.  It speaks of us eagerly awaiting the demise of our “earthly tent”, so that we can be given a much better “heavenly dwelling” by God.

    What does that mean to you?  What does Paul mean by “earthly tent”?  And by “heavenly dwelling”?  Are they both made of the same things?  Enlighten me.

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,12:06)
    There is a couple mentions that portray at least some angels as being creature with no body and thus spirits.  


    Which scriptures?

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,12:06)
    Scripture speaks of the physical being created first as God created the heavens and the earth and earth is physical.


    Scripture clearly says the angels shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth.  Those spirit beings were already in existence – despite your lonely pursuit to prove otherwise.

    Pretending a scripture doesn't say what it clearly does say is not “proof” that it doesn't say what it says, Kerwin.  You can pretend all you want, but it won't change a thing.

    Besides, what about the one who was with God in the beginning?  You know, the one through whom God created all other things.  Was that one a physical, natural, or spirit entity?  Because that one came first, right?

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,12:06)
    Last, Scripture state man was created image of God and his image is spiritual.


    His “IMAGE” is “SPIRITUAL”?  Doesn't that mean God has a spirit BODY, Kerwin?  If not, what “image” are you talking about?

    Nevertheless, man is not a “spirit” being like God is, Kerwin.  Man is made of dust, and is given a spirit on loan from God.  Men are not “spirit beings”.  They are “flesh beings”.

    You are sinking deeper and deeper into the sludge of your own making.  One twist here means you have to twist there and there to cover that first twist.  And so on and so on.  Your imagined doctrine is coming unraveled, Kerwin.

    #377834
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    It is guilt by deriving your doctrine from a source other than Scripture and then seeking to force Scripture to support it. There is no mention of bodies composed of Spirit in all of Scripture it is a teaching that is derived by the theology of Gnosticism or one that is like it.

    You are ignoring reason in your chosen interpretation as you clinging to what certain men have taught you despite evidence to the contrary. My hypothesis is that you have invested a lot in it and you have now wish to loose your investment. It seems you have question the same men in the past and disagreed with them so but that is probably on things you had less invested in.

    We are each tested in our own ways and Satan does not want to surrender us. It seems those against us are greater than those for us but God declares that is not so.

    #377838
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,15:33)
    ……..the body of man spiritual just like than angels it was created like as God said “Let us make man to our image ….”.


    So which is your truth, Kerwin……….

    1. God is also flesh like mankind and the angels.

    2. Mankind is a spirit being like God and the angels.

    Once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. You are correct that God indeed said OUR image”, didn't He?

    So there were other spirit beings besides God before God created man, right?

    And if those other beings were “flesh”, and God said our image”, wouldn't that make God also flesh?

    You have placed yourself in a pickle here. Enlighten me as to how all of this is going to work out for you.

    #377840
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2014,16:04)
    Souls can be under the altar in heaven


    :)

    #377841
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2014,16:15)
    Hi KW,
    Gen 6.3
    And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.


    And yet, God DIDN'T say such a thing about His spirit sons, right Kerwin?

    Created “in the image” of God and His already existing spirit sons does not mean “created EXACTLY LIKE them in EVERY WAY”.

    #377844
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,18:04)
    Mike,

    It is guilt by deriving your doctrine from a source other than Scripture and then seeking to force Scripture to support it.  There is no mention of bodies composed of Spirit in all of Scripture it is a teaching that is derived by the theology of Gnosticism or one that is like it.

    You are ignoring reason in your chosen interpretation as you clinging to what certain men have taught you despite evidence to the contrary.  My hypothesis is that you have invested a lot in it and you have now wish to loose your investment.  It seems you have question the same men in the past and disagreed with them so but that is probably on things you had less invested in.

    We are each tested in our own ways and Satan does not want to surrender us.  It seems those against us are greater than those for us but God declares that is not so.


    Kerwin,

    That entire post is bunk.  I haven't the foggiest idea what the Gnostics believed.  And no “man” taught me how to understand 1 Cor 15, 2 Cor 5, Phil 3:21, or the many other scriptures from which I gleaned my understanding about a spiritual body to replace our flesh body.

    You say your hypothesis is that I have a lot invested in my understanding, and that I don't want to lose that investment.

    Could it be that you haven't ever been able to show me one thing that would discredit my understanding, and therefore I have no REASON to leave it?

    Yeah Kerwin…… it's that latter one.

    Like I said in the previous post, USE SCRIPTURES, not “guilt by association games”.  Show me using SCRIPTURES that my understanding is wrong.

    Show me – USING SCRIPTURES – how God and His angels are “flesh beings” along with Jesus, Kerwin.

    Because if we were created in “our image”, and you swear the angels are made of FLESH, then God is also made of flesh, Kerwin.

    It's time for you to stop digging yourself in deeper, and let us thrown you a lifeline to help pull you out of your pit.

    #377846
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    I have no idea what God said to the angels.  I do know that Genesis 6:3 is using flesh as if it was in rebellion against the governance of the Spirit.  That would it is used as “flesh as frail or erring (man against God)”.

    I do not believe God created “flesh as frail or erring (man against God)” but instead he created it to be empowered and for God.

    I am convinced flesh became ” as frail or erring (man against God)” as the result of adam's sin.

    Note:flesh
    Note: Corrected address of passage I am speaking of. Thank you Mike.

    #377848
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    Men were is rebellion against God.
    Philosophy adds nothing

    #377855
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,18:28)
    I do know that Hebrews 6:3 is using flesh as if it was in rebellion against the governance of the Spirit.


    Please give me the correct scripture, so I can check what you're saying.

    #377856
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2014,06:30)
    Hi KW,
    Men were is rebellion against God.
    Philosophy adds nothing


    Nick,

    Stick to subjects that you know what you are are speaking of as you know nothing about philosophy.

    You are correct that men are in rebellion against God but the God did not not say the Spirit's difficulty was with men in that case.  Instead he stated his difficulty was that they were also flesh.  So if the only contention that is relevant to the length of a human's life is the contention between God's Spirit and the flesh of man which was corrupted by adam's choice.

    #377857
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2014,06:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,18:28)
    I do know that Hebrews 6:3 is using flesh as if it was in rebellion against the governance of the Spirit.


    Please give me the correct scripture, so I can check what you're saying.


    Mike,

    It is definition of flesh I found at blueletterbible.org.  Psalms 78:38 uses it the same way

    #377862
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2014,12:02)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2014,06:30)
    Hi KW,
    Men were is rebellion against God.
    Philosophy adds nothing


    Nick,

    Stick to subjects that you know what you are are speaking of as you know nothing about philosophy.

    You are correct that men are in rebellion against God but the God did not not say the Spirit's difficulty was with men in that case.  Instead he stated his difficulty was that they were also flesh.  So if the only contention that is relevant to the length of a human's life is the contention between God's Spirit and the flesh of man which was corrupted by adam's choice.


    Hi KW,

    Gen 6.3
    And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

    I do not read it that way.
    Rebellious man is a pathetic weakling whose ways are very irritating so God chose an easier way to deal with him-shorten their lives

    #377871
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    This sentence states nothing of the ways of man. Instead is speaks of the opposition of the flesh to God's Spirit. Another passage that speaks of the rebellion of the flesh is:

    Romans 8:20-21
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

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