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Explain this, this is the original 1611 King Jimmy for Daniel 9:25 (grammar cleaned up):
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem, onto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks; and threescore and two weeks, the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Pay very close attention to the semicolon after the seven weeks and where is this semicolon in the modern translation???? IT’S GONE!!!! (one may be lead to say the removal is corruption) That semicolon creates a pause and separates two ideas, the first being the first seven weeks and then a separate sixty two weeks. This means there will be TWO anointed ones being referenced, one in the first seven weeks and the next AFTER the sixty two weeks (sixty two weeks is the rebuilding of the Temple).
That first seven weeks begins with the destruction of the first temple by Nebuchadnezzar and ends with the decree of Cyrus to rebuild the city of Jerusalem and the Temple, your first anointed one, aka “messiah”, the beginning of the sixty two weeks. (for context read Jer29:10; Isa 44:28-45:1; Ezra 1:1-2).
It’s after the sixty two weeks the next anointed one is mentioned and this would take place in the last week of the seventy originally foretold, and it is this anointed one would be “cutoff.” It is also during this last week the Temple is destroyed. This canNOT be about the Jesus as he has been dead for almost 40 years. So the anointed one who is cutoff and left with nothing would be a religious leader, a high priest (G-d’s anointed); who would have been cutoff from performing his G-dly duties and with the destruction of the Temple left with nothing (remember they had no inheritance Duet 18:1), which is the cause of offerings and sacrifices ending…THERE IS NO TEMPLE ANYMORE TO PERFORM THEIR DUTIES TO G-D!!!!!
This is so elementary today; it isn’t I who is having difficulty understanding this, it seems it might be the brainwashed mind of the christian who fails to understand the words written or maybe it’s the gullible christian who believes everything they’re told without ever verifying it. READ AND STUDY THE TANAKH!!
What you have been told is a lie!! Put the pieces together, connect the dots; and when you do, you will see truth! Ask yourself why I can explain everything and back it up with scripture, but you can’t!!
Isa 53 isn’t about a messiah figure, that was made up by the catholic church (the origin of ALL christian faiths). Can you prove it’s about a messiah figure, and the answer is a big fat NO!! You can’t even explain who is speaking where in this Servant Song.
1. Isaiah 53 was written long before the Catholic Church existed as you know. A copy found among the Dead Sea Scrolls dates to around 125 BC.
2. Jewish writings also linked Isaiah 53 to the Messiah. An ancient Jewish translation, Targum Jonathan, calls the servant described in Isaiah 52:13 the Messiah.
3. The earliest Christians believed Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus. The New Testament directly connects Jesus to this prophecy, long before the Catholic Church developed.
1. Isaiah 49:5–6: Describes a servant who restores Israel and brings salvation to the nations, suggesting an individual rather than Israel itself.
2. Isaiah 11:1–10: Describes a future Messiah descended from King David who brings justice and peace.
3. Dead Sea Scrolls (around 100 BC): Manuscript 4Q541 describes a priestly figure associated with atonement and suffering, with similarities to Isaiah 53.
4. Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 98b): Jewish rabbis apply Isaiah 53:4 to the Messiah, although this text was compiled centuries after Jesus.
You keep returning to this idea; now explain Amos 3:7, “Certainly the sovereign LORD does nothing without first revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.” Apparently, G-d does reveal his plan first. You keep speaking of this “enemy” that could somehow thwart the plans of G-d…REALLY!!! Who??
1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.The apostle Paul is explaining that the rulers of this world did not understand God’s hidden wisdom. Had they understood who Jesus was, they would not have crucified him.
I understand that you do not believe in this as it is not part of the Old Testament. But that is your problem, not mine. Here are some Old Testament verses for you to consider that explain that God hides things from people until the appointed time.
1. Isaiah 29:11
“And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed…”This describes divine revelation that people cannot understand.
2. Daniel 12:4
“But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end…”God instructs Daniel to keep certain prophecies sealed until a future time.
3. Proverbs 25:2
“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.”This describes God concealing things that people must seek to understand.
4. Isaiah 6:9
“Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.”This describes people hearing God’s message without understanding its meaning.
Matthew 11:25
“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.”
You realize the Targum is an interpretation/translation of the Hebrew into Aramaic and therefore wouldn’t be the original Hebrew. At any rate, how does this prove the Jesus is the reference in this passage in Isaiah and that he is the true Messiah. Still waiting for what the Jesus fulfilled as was spoken in the Tanakh of who the Messiah would be and what he would do when he came?
In your response concerning Amos 3:7 you failed to answer who can thwart G-d’s plans. I have no problem calling the NT a book of lies, I’ve proven it! So the problem would be your acceptance of those lies and therefore your rejection of what G-d actually said.
Blinding people’s understanding isn’t the same as not revealing a plan. The only exception to the verses you sited is the Daniel passage as G-d told him to “seal” it until the end. G-d did reveal who his Messiah will be and what he will do when he comes and the Jesus NEVER did any of it when he was here. To say he will accomplish it when he “returns” is a christian fallacy to explain away why the Jesus didn’t return “soon” when he said he would (Matthew 24, Rev 22:6,7,12,20) or accomplish what the Tanakh says the Messiah will do, and a twice coming messiah is NEVER spoken of in the Tanakh.
You then site Matt 11:25 as if that is proof G-d hid his plans, except it was revealed to the “infant”, so not really hidden was it!! Didn’t the Jesus speak in parables so those who heard wouldn’t understand and repent (sounds a little deceptive) and it was suppose to be a fulfilling of Isa 6:9,10. Except those were words said to Isaiah and meant for the southern kingdom NOT the people of the first century (would you call that a lie or truth?).
Does anyone verify anything anymore?!?!
Daniel 9:
26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;👉Messiah cut off 👉city and temple destroyed
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Luke 19..some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
[40] And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
[41] And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
[42] Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
[43] For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
[44] And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and 👉they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because 👉thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.👈I don’t understand what you mean, please explain; because every translation I use DOESN’T have “but not for himself” in Daniel 9:26.
When examining the Hebrew the translation reads: And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and have nothing. And the people of a prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and until the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed. I used AI to translate the Hebrew, because all other translators are useless, and the phrase “but not for himself” isn’t there. Then I look up the commentary of the NET bible and I find this, “The expression ‘have nothing’ is difficult. Presumably it refers to an absence of support or assistance for the anointed one at the time of his “cutting off.” The KJV rendering “but not for himself,” apparently suggesting a vicarious death, cannot be defended.” Did you catch the king Jimmy rendering CANNOT be defended!! The NET bible was translated by people who are experts in their fields of study (learn more here).
I then asked AI to explain how the king Jimmy could render this passage the way it did and the response was: The final rendering requires an interpretive step beyond the ordinary meanings of the individual Hebrew words. One can argue for that interpretation from a theological or contextual perspective, but the Hebrew phrase alone does not explicitly state that the anointed one dies for others rather than for himself. Seems king Jimmy took some liberties with how the Hebrew was to be translated and sound like more Jimmy corruption of the Hebrew.
Will anyone verify anything today?!?!?
P.S. It didn’t go unnoticed that you ignored and didn’t comment on the fact the semicolon in Dan 9:25 is missing from today’s translations…wonder why???
More dodge and evade tactics of the christian who can’t explain why they believe what they believe; they just “believe.”
The point I wanted to highlight in my last post is that Daniel 9 presents the destruction of the city and the Temple of Jerusalem as following the crucifixion of the Messiah.
History confirms the prophecy: the destruction of the city and the Temple follows the crucifixion of the Messiah.
IA
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The facts reported by historians of the era—most notably Flavius Josephus in *The Jewish War*—confirm this chronological sequence:
• 30–33 AD: The crucifixion of Jesus under the authority of Pontius Pilate.
• 66 AD: The outbreak of the Great Jewish Revolt against the Roman Empire.
• 70 AD: The siege of Jerusalem by Titus. The city was sacked, and the Second Temple was completely burned and destroyed—an event that forever altered the course of Judaism and nascent Christianity.
For Christian theologians, this interval of approximately 40 years (the duration of a generation in the Bible) is viewed as a period of reprieve before the fulfillment of the prophesied judgment.At what point does the Jesus factor into this timeline and how does it parallel what Daniel was told in the 70 week prophecy?
You say the period between the crucifixion and the destruction of the Temple was a period of reprieve, a little confused. When I read vs 24, Gabriel explicitly tells Daniel 70 weeks have been determined upon the Jewish people and in this time period they are to end their rebellion, stop sinning, atone for their wickedness, and in doing so will usher in a period of perpetual righteousness. If they don’t turn away from all they are doing against G-d, HE would bring judgement on them and the Temple would be destroyed. So what is this 40 years of “reprieve” you’re talking about? G-d gave them 490 years to turn back to HIM and they failed. Even the Jesus told the disciples of the Temple’s destruction and with its destruction, ended the 70 week prophecy.
30–33 AD: The crucifixion of Jesus under the authority of Pontius Pilate.
66 AD: The outbreak of the Great Jewish Revolt against the Roman Empire.
70 AD: The siege of Jerusalem by Titus. The city was sacked, and the Second Temple was completely burned and destroyedThis is the time line you gave for the events and we have approximately 40 year between the death of the Jesus and the Temple being destroyed. Reading this prophecy (Dan 9:24-27) there are three time periods spoken of – 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week for a total of 70 weeks. The first time period begins when the first Temple is destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and ends with the order going forth to rebuild Jerusalem by Cyrus, which begins the next period of 62 weeks. At the end of the 62 weeks is where Gabriel describes the destruction of the city and the Temple, the last week.
You believe the 70 weeks have been fulfilled already, and you are correct; but, you say in this last week is when the “messiah” (the Jesus is crucified) is cutoff. Except the Temple was still standing when he was crucified and wouldn’t be destroyed for another 40 years??? How can after the 62 weeks an anointed one be cutoff and left with nothing be the Jesus when the 62 weeks hasn’t ended?
If, as you say, there was a “period of reprieve”, that would mean there was another almost six weeks added to the prophecy. G-d didn’t say there will be 70 weeks and then HE would add another six. Or the “cutting off and left with nothing” happened 6 weeks before the end of the 62 weeks, which isn’t what G-d said either. Exactly how does the Jesus figure into this?
Back in my day of chrisitanity I spent weeks, months pondering and studying how this all worked out and and never arrived at a definitive answer because the math never worked out. Your “reasoning” of a “period of reprieve” sounds more like justification to reason away the fact the math fails and doesn’t support the Jesus.
Explain your version of how this works!
@DT
When was the first Temple in Jerusalem destroyed?
• According to historical and biblical chronology, the Temple and the city of Jerusalem were burned down during the summer of 586 BC (on the 9th or 10th of the Jewish month of Av), following a long siege.
• Consequences: This event marks the fall of the Kingdom of Judah, the deportation of a portion of the population to Babylon (the Babylonian Exile), and the end of the First Temple period.When did Daniel have the vision described in Daniel 9:24–27?
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• According to the Book of Daniel (chapter 9, verses 1–2), Daniel’s vision and prayer took place during the first year of the reign of Darius, son of Ahasuerus—a Mede by descent—who had become king over the realm of the Chaldeans.
• Estimated historical date: This first year of the reign of Darius the Mede corresponds approximately to 538 BC.
• Context: Daniel was meditating on the prophecies of the prophet Jeremiah concerning the 70 years of Jerusalem’s desolation when he received a visit from the angel Gabriel.Why would God need to inform Daniel about the destruction of the First Temple (as you suggest), given that this event had already long since passed (586 BC)? Daniel received his vision in 538 BC.
Daniel 9:24 concerns the
“restoration and building of Jerusalem.”
God allowed for a decree—or, in reality, three decrees—to facilitate this restoration of Jerusalem, involving the kings Cyrus, Darius, and, in particular, Artaxerxes Longimanus.To be continued
The Edict of Cyrus (538 BC): The Initial Decree of Liberation
• The Context: In 539 BC, the Persian King Cyrus II (the Great) captured Babylon, bringing an end to the Neo-Babylonian Empire.
• The Edict: In 538 BC, Cyrus issued an edict authorizing peoples who had been deported by the Babylonians to return to their homelands and re-establish their religious practices.
• For the Jews: This edict enabled the first major return of exiles to Jerusalem—led by Zerubbabel and the High Priest Joshua—and ordered the reconstruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. The project was financed by the Persian royal treasury, which also returned the sacred gold and silver vessels. This act is further immortalized in the Cyrus Cylinder.The Edict or Confirmation of Darius (Darius I, c. 522–486 BC)
• The Context: Following the death of Cyrus and the subsequent reigns, the reconstruction of the Temple in Jerusalem faced interruptions and local opposition from neighboring peoples (notably the Samaritans).
• The Intervention: Opponents of the project appealed to the Persian court. A search of the royal archives in Ecbatana led to the discovery of Cyrus’s original decree.
• The Decree: Darius I confirmed and renewed Cyrus’s order, commanding local governors not to hinder the work. Instead, they were instructed to provide the necessary funds, animals, and materials for sacrifices to the God of Heaven—under penalty of severe sanctions. The Second Temple was finally completed and inaugurated in the sixth year of Darius’s reign (c. 515 BC). The Intervention of Artaxerxes (Artaxerxes I, 5th century BC)• The context: Later in the Persian period, during the reign of Artaxerxes I (who ruled from 465 to 424 BC), new waves of religious and administrative consolidation took place in Jerusalem.
• The missions of Ezra and Nehemiah: Artaxerxes granted official letters and authorizations (notably to Ezra the priest-scribe in 458 BC, and subsequently to Nehemiah, who served as governor).
• The significance: These decrees enabled the reorganization of the Jewish community around the Law (the Torah), the resumption and completion of the walls of Jerusalem, and the stabilization of religious and civil life in imperial Judea.The date of 457 BC—corresponding to the decree issued by the Persian King Artaxerxes I (Longimanus) during the seventh year of his reign—is adopted by many theologians and biblical historians and certain historical interpretations for a specific mathematical and textual reason: it allows the prophetic calendar to align perfectly with major historical events in the life of Jesus Christ.
The following are the key arguments justifying the choice of this date:1. The “day-for-a-year” principle
The prophecy in Daniel 9:24–27 speaks of “70 weeks.” By applying the principle of prophetic equivalence (generally based on Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34), one week represents 7 years.
• 70 “weeks of years” therefore equate to 490 years.
• The prophecy specifies that the appearance of the Messiah would occur after an initial block of 7 weeks (49 years) followed by 62 weeks (434 years)—a total of 69 weeks (483 years)—counting from the decree for reconstruction.2. The comprehensive nature of Artaxerxes’ decree (457 BC)
The text of Daniel 9:25 indicates that the countdown begins with “the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem.” Among the various Persian edicts, the one from 457 BC (recorded in the Book of Ezra, chapter 7) stands apart from the others:
• The decree of Cyrus (538 BC) and that of Darius (520 BC) were strictly limited to the reconstruction of the Temple. • The decree of Artaxerxes in 457 BC granted Ezra full political, judicial, and financial authority to restore the autonomy of the religious and civil community in Jerusalem. It mandated the restoration of the city’s social order and infrastructure, which corresponds to “rebuilding Jerusalem.”3. An exact chronological alignment with Jesus Christ
Using 457 BC as a starting point, the mathematical calculation aligns directly with dates found in the New Testament:
• The appearance of the Messiah (AD 27): Adding 483 years (69 weeks) to 457 BC brings us to AD 27 (accounting for the fact that there is no year 0 in the historical calendar). The year 27 corresponds precisely to the year Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist—the moment He began His public ministry and was “anointed” by the Holy Spirit (the term “Messiah” means “the Anointed One”).
• The “cutting off” of the Messiah (AD 31): Daniel 9:27 states that in the middle of the 70th week (after three and a half years), the Messiah would “put an end to sacrifice and offering” and would be “cut off.” Adding three and a half years to AD 27 brings us to AD 31—the date generally accepted within this framework for the crucifixion of Christ, whose ultimate sacrifice rendered the Temple rituals obsolete.From the issuing of the decree by Cyrus to allow the Jews to return to Jerusalem to rebuild in 538 BCE until the Jesus hangs on the cross in 30-33 CE is 568-571 years that’s a few years longer than the 490 years Daniel prophesied. To move the decree to another king (Artaxerxes I) is disingenuous and becomes deceptive, especially to claim Artaxerxes I, the Temple was already complete – dedicated way back in 518 BCE; so he wasn’t going there to build anything, they were allowed to return to worship G-d. Historically, the Persians allowed their captives to return to their former cities to worship their gods. This doesn’t fit the command of rebuilding and therefore 457 BCE fails as a date to use to calculate the Jesus within the Daniel 70 weeks.
Nehemiah was the one who built the walls around Jerusalem and did it in 52 days (Neh 6:15) and would be a better date to use, except it throws your “evidence” the 70 weeks was pointing to the Jesus out the window as it won’t “align.” Besides the text says in the last week the Temple would be destroyed (after the 62 week period) AND the anointed one would be cutoff and left with nothing…IN THE LAST WEEK!!! The Jesus was about 40 years prior and this anointed one mentioned in Daniel, that was cutoff in the last week, is someone else; I lean to a high priest some to king Agrippa.
I spent that last few days looking into this and in effect there are two main historical timelines, with one being rejected by the majority. There is the secular timeline, accepted as the authority today, that starts in the future and looks backwards at historical events and places a date on them. Then there’s the Jewish timeline that starts from creation and goes forward. Whose method is more accurate? Anyways, this is a rabbit hole that deserves its own topic.
What you may want to do is verify what you have been told is truth…
In your next post concerning Ps 22; what is the prophetic correlation to the Jesus of David lamenting over being surrounded by his enemies and speaking of what they will do to him if he is caught? This isn’t a “random verse”, this is David speaking from the heart and knowing G-d would deliver him from his enemies. Do we read from the same bible??
Psalm 22 is seen as a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion, written roughly a thousand years earlier. David describes being mocked by his enemies (verses 7–8), the piercing of his hands and feet in a disputed translation (verse 16), and his clothing being divided by casting lots (verse 18). These details closely resemble the events surrounding Jesus’ crucifixion, although there is no biblical record of David experiencing them himself.
When Jesus cried, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46), he was quoting the opening words of Psalm 22. Those familiar with the Scriptures may have recalled the rest of the psalm and recognised the parallels with what was happening before them. Jesus may therefore have been deliberately drawing attention to the fulfilment of prophecy.
What you fail to see is the hand of God in history.
@DT
25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment 👉to RESTORE and to BUILD Jerusalem👈 unto the Messiah….
The text of Daniel 9:25 indicates that the countdown begins with “the proclamation of the order to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.” Among the various Persian edicts, the one from 457 BC (recorded in the Book of Ezra, chapter 7) stands out from the others:
• The decrees of Cyrus (538 BC) and Darius (520 BC) were 👉strictly limited to the reconstruction of the Temple.👈 •
The decree of Artaxerxes from 457 BC granted Ezra 👉full political, judicial, and financial authority👈 to re-establish the autonomy of the religious and civil community of Jerusalem. It prescribed 👉the restoration of the social order and the city’s infrastructure, which corresponds to the “RESTORATION AND BUILDING OF JERUSALEM” (Dan. 9:25).Daniel specifies that the rebuilding of the city will take place “in troubled times.” The story of Nehemiah during the reign of Artaxerxes I perfectly illustrates this reality: the Jews had to rebuild the walls with one hand while holding a weapon in the other to fend off attacks from Sanballat and Tobiah (Nehemiah 4).
So Ps 22 being “seen as a prophecy” and “parallelism” between two separate events makes a prophecy?!?!? Only in the world of christianity can truths be made up!!
Ps 22 isn’t prophetic, it isn’t an allusion to a future event, it’s David crying out for deliverance from his dangerous enemies, who have surrounded him and threaten his life. Confident that the Lord will intervene, he then vows to thank the Lord publicly for his help and anticipates a time when all people will recognize the Lord’s greatness and worship him.
Nowhere is it mentioned this passage is prophetic, the NT never allusions to this as being a prophecy; so all there really is, is parallelism and big whoop! Unless you have actual evidence to this being a prophecy, no speculation allowed, why do you believe it is prophetic? Why do you believe what you believe??
chatgpt translates the Hebrew of Ps 22:16/17 כִּֽי־סְבָב֗וּנִי כְּלָ֫בִ֥ים עֲדַ֣ת מְ֖רֵעִים הִקִּיפ֑וּנִי כָּֽ֜אֲרִ֗י יָדַ֥י וְרַגְלָֽי:
“For dogs have surrounded me; a congregation of evildoers has encircled me; like a lion, [they have attacked] my hands and my feet.”
Nothing about piercing anything even the NET bible (these are experts in their fields) translates the passage as: Yes, wild dogs surround me – a gang of evil men crowd around me; like a lion they pin my hands and feet.
In their commentary they explain why they translated the passage the way they did…enlightening indeed:
Heb “like a lion, my hands and my feet.” This reading is often emended because it is grammatically awkward, but perhaps its awkwardness is by rhetorical design. Its broken syntax may be intended to convey the panic and terror felt by the psalmist. The psalmist may envision a lion pinning the hands and feet of its victim to the ground with its paws (a scene depicted in ancient Near Eastern art), or a lion biting the hands and feet.
The line has been traditionally translated, “they pierce my hands and feet,” and then taken as foreshadowing the crucifixion of Christ. Though Jesus does appropriate the language of this psalm while on the cross (compare v. 1 with Matt 27:46 and Mark 15:34), the NT does not cite this verse in describing the death of Jesus. (It does refer to vv. 7-8 and 18, however. See Matt 27:35, 39, 43; Mark 15:24, 29; Luke 23:34; John 19:23-24.)
If one were to insist on an emendation of כָּאֲרִי (ka’ariy, “like a lion”) to a verb, the most likely verbal root would be כָּרָה (karah, “dig”; see the LXX). In this context this verb could refer to the gnawing and tearing of wild dogs (cf. NCV, TEV, CEV). The ancient Greek version produced by Symmachus reads “bind” here, perhaps understanding a verbal root כרך, which is attested in later Hebrew and Aramaic and means “to encircle, entwine, embrace” (see HALOT 497-98 s.v. כרך and Jastrow 668 s.v. כָּרַךְ). Neither one of these proposed verbs can yield a meaning “bore, pierce.”
Even modern christian scholars say the rendering of “pierced” doesn’t fit and therefore it can be concluded it is a mistranslation of the passage to say “pierced.”
Is it I who fails to see G-d’s hand in history or is it you who fails to verify what they have been told is truth. Still waiting for how the Jesus fulfilled what was written in the Tanakh concerning the Messiah. Since the Jesus DIDN’T fulfill what was said, how can you fault the religious leaders in the early first century because they rejected your messiah when the Jesus didn’t fit what they where told the Messiah would be?
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