John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,161 through 16,180 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #374539
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2014,04:57)
    Wakeup,

    I have my flash turned off since it is a security risk for my computer.  Give me some details about the vidios you are posting and why I should let them and the sites they are at inside my secured area.


    Kerwin.

    I dont know what you are saying.
    Why can't you watch them all and make up your own mind.
    There are many more of Ron wyatt's videos.
    I will try to post some more.
    It is good to watch,for this is the foundation of our believe.
    All that work is not just to create a fake video.

    wakeup.

    #374540
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

    The evidence that Abraham has was God's word. I am of the opinion that a lot of people will believe in God if just one of his angels comes visiting, much less three. The angels themselves being evidence. We view Scripture as evidence because we believe it is the word of God recorded in human words. Some of us put faith in interpretations that are not from God because we assume they are and what they are instead is false evidence.

    #374543
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 21 2014,10:21][/quote]

    Quote

    I MADE CLEAR THROUGHOUT MY POSTS THAT THE WORD IS THE TRIUNE GOD…………

    Then who was “the God” the Word was with in the beginning?

    Mike,

    THE SAME GOD WHO WAS EXTERNALLY ONLY ON HIS OWN, AND INTERNALLY WAS WITH HIS SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT! THE TRIUNE GOD! ALL IN THE FATHER!

    NOW THE WORD

    WHICH IN ACTUAL FACT WAS THE SON,

    WAS THE SAME GOD, WHO EXTERNALLY WAS THE WORD AND INTERNALLY HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE FATHER! THE TRIUNE GOD! ALL IN THE SON!

    BUT THE ONLY MEDIATOR THE FATHER AS HE WAS, ON HIS OWN, WAS NOT A MEDIATOR YET! OBVIOUS THERE WERE NO CREATURES YET!

    SO THROUGH THE WORD A COMPLETELY NEW FUNCTION!

    GOD WAS FUNCTIONAL BOTH EXTERNALLY IN ALL HIS CREATURES, AND INTERNALLY WITHIN THE WORD

    BOTH DOUBLE, AND TRIPLE FUNCTION,

    BOTH AS A CREATED GOD, AND AS GOD HIMSELF,  WITHIN LUCIFER!

    FROM LUCIFER'S POINT OF VIEW,

    LUCIFER WAS BOTH A CREATURE AND A GOD

    LUCIFER WAS THE LIGHT OF THE MORNING!

    SO AS THE MORNING IS THE BEGINNING OF THE DAY,

    THE LIGHT!

    LUCIFER WAS THE BEGINNING OF CREATION!

    WITHIN THE LIGHT!

    AND THROUGH THAT PROCESS, GOD CREATED ALL THE HEAVENS UP TO THE REBEL!

    TO CLARIFY:

    WHEN GOD CREATED LUCIFER THE WORD  WAS ACTUALLY IN LUCIFER, AND GOD THE FATHER WAS WITHIN THE WORD

    SO GOD INTERNALLY WITHIN THE WORD     ONE

    AND EXTERNALLY  ASTHE WORD ITSELF,       TWO

    AND LUCIFER  CREATURE                                    THREE

    WERE THE BEGINNING!

    AFTER THE REBEL:

    GOD WITHIN THE WORD

    WAS BOTH HOLY, AND EVIL! IN ONE CREATURE!

    THAT HOW POWERFUL THE WORD BECAME THROUGH THE REBEL ITSELF!

    NOT ONLY THAT BUT

    ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER, REMAINED IN HIS FULL ORIGINAL ESSENCE!

    SO GOD ENRICHED HIMSELF, SINCE WHEN HE WAS ALL BY HIMSELF, IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO ABIDE IN HIS CREATURES, DUE TO THE FACT THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DETRIMENTAL FOR THEM TO REMAIN IN EXISTENCE AS SOON AS THEY HAVE THE LEAST CONCEPT OF SIN!

    SOMETHING WHICH THROUGH THE WORD, HIDDEN WITHIN, HE ACCOMPLISHED!

    Quote
    (carmel @ Mar. 20 2014,15:53)
    BUT ALL THREE MAJOR PRIMORDIAL SPIRITS WERE ALL WITHIN THE SON

    What?  Where do you get your information, Charles?

    NOW THE ANSWER FOR THE ABOVE QUESTION,IS COVERED IN THE SAME STATEMENT ABOVE!

    REFLECT WHAT THE WORD WAS ON THE DAY OF THE REBEL!

    AND REFLECT WHAT THE WORD WAS  WHEN

    THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!

    GOD FURTHER ENRICHED HIMSELF!

    BOTH HOLY AND EVIL IN FLESH BODY WHEN HE WAS BORN! MIKE?

    GOT IT?

    BUT THE GOSPEL IS CLEAR:

    JESUS, THE WORD HAD THE ALMIGHTY GOD WITHIN HIMSELF WHEN HE WALKED ON EARTH! HE WAS THE ABODE OF THE GODHEAD!

    JESUS, BOTH ON THE CROSS, IMMEDIATELY BANG ON HIS DEATH THROUGH HIS SOUL, THE HOLY SPIRIT,

    AND AFTER RESURRECTION UNITED HIMSELF WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, HIS SOUL, AND BECAME:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST! FOR SURE!

    I WOULD NEVER END ENJOYING MYSELF, FOR THE GLORY OF GOD DEFINING THIS!

    BUT YOU HATE MY MANIFESTOS!

    MIND YOU NOT MINE HIS

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #374564
    Wakeup
    Participant

    I'm Sure you guys are enjoying your selfs.
    Have some more of that coffee,and biscuits.
    Tomorrow we'll do the same.
    There is nothing else to do;so lets just past our time debating about religion.
    Good subject,better than watching movies.
    We have been doing this since what? Ten years ago?
    How nice; lets carry on for another ten.

    wakeup.

    #374575
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    I am drinking coffer but I am not eating biscuits. I have been doing this longer than ten years but many of it was not here. It has helped be learn about God as I have done a great amount of research. My learning would be faster if we did not cover the same ground so much and if my memory and attention span were longer. These weaknesses have their place in God's plan.

    #374579
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2014,07:35)
    Wakeup,

    I am drinking coffer but I am not eating biscuits.  I have been doing this longer than ten years but many of it was not here.   It has helped be learn about God as I have done a great amount of research.  My learning would be faster if we did not cover the same ground so much and if my memory and attention span were longer.  These weaknesses have their place in God's plan.


    So lets carry on till kingdom come.
    You love that miry pool of water to play in.
    Let's stay in that mud.

    wakeup.

    #374581
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Mar. 22 2014,14:24][/quote]

    Quote
    The Holy Spirit does not control God,
    but God does control the Holy Spirit.

    WAKEUP,

    GOD IS TRIUNE!

    SO WHEN YOU MENTION THE TITLE GOD YOU ARE NOT REFERRING TO ONE ESSENCE ONLY!

    BUT THREE  AS WELL!

    THESE THREE ARE LOVE ITSELF, WISDOM ITSELF, AND POWER ITSELF!

    ALLOTTED TO GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT, RESPECTIVELY!

    SO THE FATHER IS GOD!  TRIUNE AND ONE ! IN HIS PARTICULAR FUNCTION! OF LOVE!

    THE SON IS GOD!  TRIUNE AND ONE! IN HIS PARTICULAR FUNCTION! OF WISDOM!

    THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD! TRIUNE AND ONE! IN HIS PARTICULAR FUNCTION! OF POWER!

    THERE'S NO GOD WITHOUT THE FATHER! LOVE

    THERE'S NO GOD WITHOUT THE SON! WISDOM!

    THERE'S NO GOD WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT! POWER!

    NONE OF GOD'S THREE ESSENCE, IN A MODE TO SAY, INDIVIDUALS CONTROL, COMMAND, OR IN A WAY ONE SUPERIOR OVER THE OTHER, SINCE ALL ARE IN FULL HARMONY!

    NOT THE SAME WITH US, SINCE WE ARE THREE DIFFERENT, AND OPPOSITE ESSENCES!

    OUR SPIRIT IS GOD'S!

    OUR SOUL SPIRIT/FLESH,  NOT YET ESTABLISHED!

    OUR BODY FLESH, CORRUPTED! EX LUCIFER, SATANIC!

    SO DON'T COMPARE GOD WITH US!

    OUR ORIGIN SIN! THE EX EVIL SPIRIT, LUCIFER/SATANA

    THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT,

    ARE ALL PERFECT AND CONSISTENT!  

    ALL GENUINELY , AND ACT SPONTANEOUSLY,PERFECTLY AND AUTOMATICALLY !  

    ALL ARE EQUALLY VITAL FOR THE DEITY!

    THE TRINITY CONCEPT IS THE FOUNDATION OF ALL WHATEVER GOD CREATED,

    EVEN THE LEAST GERM!

    Quote
    God's Word does not control God,but God does
    control His Word.

    THE WORD CONTROL IS NOT APPROPRIATE, SINCE THE WORD IS GOD HIMSELF IN A DIFFERENT FUNCTION!

    IN FACT THE WORD ITSELF ENRICHED GOD!

    MADE GOD MOST POWERFUL, AND MOST EFFICACIOUS!

    THE FATHER LOVEINTERNALLY,WITHIN THE HOLY SPIRIT, POWER PRONOUNCES HIS WORD SINCE IT IS HIS ATTRIBUTE, TO DO SO, NOT BECAUSE HE IS IN A WAY SUPERIOR TO THE WORD, AND HE DOES SO FROM WITHIN THE WORD THE SON,THE TRIUNE GOD HIMSELF, EXTERNALLY!
    SINCE ALL THE THREE ESSENCES ARE ALL TRIUNE, AND ONE IN THEMSELVES!

    THE WORD IS GOD

    LIKE THREE SPHERES THE INNER SPHERE IS THE FATHER,

    THE MIDDLE SPHERE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT,

    THE EXTERNAL SPHERE IS THE SON!

    THE SON OCCUPY THE LEADING ROLE IN THIS PROCESS!  

    THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE WAS WHEN THE FATHER WAS ON HIS OWN,WHO OCCUPIED THE LEADING ROLE!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #374582
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    I am a child, playing in mud puddles is enjoyable. Even as I play I learn adult things for the time I will grow up.

    #374584
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 22 2014,12:44)
    BUT YOU HATE MY MANIFESTOS!


    Not so much the manifestos themselves, but the fact that the information contained within can not be found in any scripture.

    It seems like your information comes out of thin air.

    #374595
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2014,03:01)
    Hi journey,

    I watched part 1 and 2 of the “living blood” video.

    The “technical evidence” was provided by a guy who seemed to be sitting in front of some 1950's scientific equipment, who then showed us a slide under a microscope of some unidentifiable black dots bouncing around – as if the slide was being vibrated.

    He produced no other scientific evidence of these so-called “source of life” black dots that remain alive forever in white blood cells.

    Mr. Wyatt showed no evidence of even finding the ark of the covenant – only his word for it.

    He showed no evidence of where this blood actually came from (no photos or videos of him uncovering the ark and scraping off any blood).

    And he didn't even name the Israeli lab that did the blood tests – he called it “such and such” lab.

    So you and he are asking us to believe, on this one guy's word, that he alone discovered the ark of the covenant, and that it didn't even make the news in Israel – let alone the entire world.  I can't imagine the Israelis suppressing evidence that would vindicate, if not their God, at least the Jewish story of history as recorded by Jewish writers.

    And you're asking us to believe that this ark was, for some reason, placed by God Himself under the spot where Jesus was crucified – just so some of Jesus' blood would run down through a crack in the earth (which later disappeared) and settle on that ark.  And that when God caused this ark and blood to finally be found by this one man, he would take it to a lab he can't name, where they somehow proved the blood was alive, had 24 chromosomes, and indeed belonged to Jesus Christ himself.  But then they covered up all that earth-shaking news, and all that is left is this one guy going around telling people it happened.

    There are just too many riddles, and not near enough solid evidence to support the claims this guy is making.


    Mike,

    I will move this conversation to the other thread, as this one has too much traffic.

    #374600
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote
    Journey,

    Basically Jesus would be equivalent to being Mary's monozygotic twin that had a mutation changing one of his x chromosomes to a y and being conceived from one of her adult cells.  

    God is after all a technician beyond compare.

    None of his non-existent dna was required for the miracle of Jesus' conception as Jesus was 100% made from the Seed of David.  Mary being that Seed.

    The AV of the KJV teaches that Jesus was made from the seed of David as of the flesh in Roman 1:3 and made of a woman in Galatians 4:4.


    Hi Kerwin

    Thank you for that.  This is just getting too technical.

    Yes, Jesus was from the Seed of David from his mothers side, but his mothers egg had to be fertilized to produce this child.
    Jesus also came out of his Father.  Else he would not be the Son.

    #374610
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi J42,
    The Son of God is not the son of God AND Mary.
    The sons of God are LED BY the Spirit of God.

    Hence the Jordan was the begettal.

    #374612
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2014,16:37)
    Hi J42,
    The Son of God is not the son of God AND Mary.
    The sons of God are LED BY the Spirit of God.

    Hence the Jordan was the begettal.


    Nick

    The Son of God was born of a woman, Mary, and has her genes, otherwise he would not be of the seed of David.
    Her egg was fertilized by God. Jesus is the Son of God, and Mary just a vehicle for this baby to be carried, but her genes were used so Jesus could come from the tribe of Judah line.

    #374615
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 23 2014,10:05)

    Quote
    Journey,

    Basically Jesus would be equivalent to being Mary's monozygotic twin that had a mutation changing one of his x chromosomes to a y and being conceived from one of her adult cells.  

    God is after all a technician beyond compare.

    None of his non-existent dna was required for the miracle of Jesus' conception as Jesus was 100% made from the Seed of David.  Mary being that Seed.

    The AV of the KJV teaches that Jesus was made from the seed of David as of the flesh in Roman 1:3 and made of a woman in Galatians 4:4.


    Hi Kerwin

    Thank you for that.  This is just getting too technical.

    Yes, Jesus was from the Seed of David from his mothers side, but his mothers egg had to be fertilized to produce this child.
    Jesus also came out of his Father.  Else he would not be the Son.


    Journey,

    There is no where in Scripture that it is written that Jesus' body was made both of his mother and of God.  The only thing that is written is that his flesh was made of Mary, the Seed of David.

    God is not like pagan gods who have been said to breed with mortals he is the Creator who made the physical worlds of heaven and earth from nothing.  God created both DNA as his blueprint and bodies for the souls to dwell in. He does not have an Y chromosome though he did create it.

    Jesus is a son of God just like every other believer is and that is by being born in his Spirit. Jesus is the Son because he is the one of God's sons Jehovah appointed Heir of all things.

    #374619
    Wakeup
    Participant

    It's worth the time to learn and watch,rather than chattering.

    #374624
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 23 2014,09:19][/quote]

    Quote
    Not so much the manifestos themselves, but the fact that the information contained within can not be found in any scripture.

    It seems like your information comes out of thin air.

    Mike,

    I DON'T BLAME YOU!

    I AGREE AS YOU SAID:IT IS FROM THIN AIR MIKE,

    AND I TOLD YOU FEW POSTS BACK,THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TALKING TO YOU, YOU ARE PRONOUNCING HIS WORDS, AND YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF IT!

    THE SPIRIT BREATHET WHERE HE WILL; and thou hearest his voice, but thou knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    I KNOW YOU ARE IN A WAY STUNNED!

    YOU ADMITTED ALREADY FEW POSTS BACK,THAT YOU ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO ANSWER MY POST!

    NO MIKE YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG!

    IT IS ALL SCRIPTURAL, BUT SCRIPTURE ARE NOT JUST WORLDY WORDS, IT IS THERE FOR THOSE WHO ARE SELECTED IN ORDER TO SEE THE HIDDEN THINGS OF GOD

    Matthew 13:11…….. BECAUSE TO YOU IT IS GIVEN TO KNOW THE MYSTERIES OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN:but to them is not given!

    12For he that hath, to him shall be given, and he shall abound: but he that HAS NOT, from him shall be taken away that also WHICH HE HAS.  

    SO IT IS CLEAR ENOUGH THAT YOU ARE IN THIS STATE, DUE TO THE FACT THAT THIS IS NOT MY OWN WORDS , I AM NOTHING!

    Matthew 11:25……….. because thou hast hid these things from the WISE and PRUDENT, and hast revealed them to the LITTLE ONES 26Yea, Father; for so hath it seemed good in thy sight.[/B]

    SO DO YOU BELIEVE THAT I AM SO GOOD, TO BE ABLE TO DISCUSS IN DETAIL THE TRINITY DOCTRINE, UNLESS, I AM GUIDED, AND  IT  IS GIVEN TO ME BY GOD THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN ME?

    REFLECT:

    MY EDUCATION ENDED IN THE PRIMARY LEVEL, WHICH IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR IN ALL MY POOR ENGLISH POSTS THAT I POSTED!

    MY RELIGION ALSO ENDED AT THE AGE OF 12, AND NEVER ATTENDED ANY KIND OF TEACHING, COURSES, AND SO ON IN RELATION TO MY BELIEF.

    I LIVED MORE LIKE A DEVIL, THAN LIKE A RELIGIOUS, FOR 50 YEARS!

    NEVERTHELESS, ALL THAT NEVER RESULTED IN ANY KIND OF A HANDICAP REGARDING GOD'S WISDOM!

    HE CALLED,I HEARD, I ASKED, SEARCHED, KNOCKED, AND IT WAS OPENED TO ME WIDE ENOUGH TO TRANSFORM ME INTO A SPECK OF LIGHT, FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE IN THE TRUTH, SEARCHING FOR THAT UNIQUE GENUINE ETERNAL LIGHT!

    I TELL YOU MIKE, THERE IS MORE HIDDEN LIGHT IN THAT POST ITSELF,

    BUT UNLESS YOU BELIEVE AND RELY ON THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT ON WORLDLY WISDOM YOU REMAIN IN CONFUSION!

    MIKE, JESUS IS THIRSTY FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE READY TO ASK HIM, FROM THE INNER MOST SPIRITUAL CENTRE OF A GOD'S LOVING HEART FOR THE TRUTH!

    JOHN 4:7 Jesus saith to her: GIVE ME TO DRINK

    10  Jesus answered, and said to her: If thou didst know the gift of God, and who he is that saith to thee, [B]GIVE ME TO DRINK; thou perhaps wouldst have ASKED HIM, and HE WOULD HAVE GIVEN YOU LIVING WATER.

    BUT DEFINITELY NOT THROUGH THE MIND AND WISDOM OF THE WORLD, SINCE THE WORLD IS EVIL, AND WANTS ONLY TO ALIENATE US FROM GOD! AND MOST OF ALL JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY BRIDGE ,AS THE ONLY GOD IN FLESH WHO REVEALED HIM IN HIMSELF ON EARTH!

    IN HIS OWN WORDS IN HIS GLORY AS MAN:

    John 20:17 ………. for I am not yet ascended IN FULL GLORY IN RELATION to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend IN FULL GLORY IN RELATION to MY FATHER( SPIRIT)and to YOUR FATHER, (FLESH)to MY GOD (HEAVENLY) and YOUR GOD. (EARTHLY)

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #374625
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2014,17:41)

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 23 2014,10:05)

    Quote
    Journey,

    Basically Jesus would be equivalent to being Mary's monozygotic twin that had a mutation changing one of his x chromosomes to a y and being conceived from one of her adult cells.  

    God is after all a technician beyond compare.

    None of his non-existent dna was required for the miracle of Jesus' conception as Jesus was 100% made from the Seed of David.  Mary being that Seed.

    The AV of the KJV teaches that Jesus was made from the seed of David as of the flesh in Roman 1:3 and made of a woman in Galatians 4:4.


    Hi Kerwin

    Thank you for that.  This is just getting too technical.

    Yes, Jesus was from the Seed of David from his mothers side, but his mothers egg had to be fertilized to produce this child.
    Jesus also came out of his Father.  Else he would not be the Son.


    Journey,

    There is no where in Scripture that it is written that Jesus' body was made both of his mother and of God.  The only thing that is written is that his flesh was made of Mary, the Seed of David.

    God is not like pagan gods who have been said to breed with mortals he is the Creator who made the physical worlds of heaven and earth from nothing.  God created both DNA as his blueprint and bodies for the souls to dwell in. He does not have an Y chromosome though he did create it.

    Jesus is a son of God just like every other believer is and that is by being born in his Spirit.  Jesus is the Son because he is the one of God's sons Jehovah appointed Heir of all things.


    Kerwin……….Good post i see it that way also brother.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

    #374626
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2014,05:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,11:59)
    Faith “IS”……. the “EVIDENCE” of things not seen.    

    Wakeup did you see the Word EVIDENCE there Wakeup. Now this is the  true meaning  of the word Faith, not what you read in the dictionary, because it excludes the word “EVIDENCE” but scripture includes it.


    Gene,

    Excellent argument of why a dictionary definition is flawed.


    I disagree, Kerwin.  Faith is truly believing WITHOUT any hard “evidence”.

    Paul was making a play on words, saying his faith was in fact the “evidence” of the things he can't see with his own eyes.[/quote]

    Mike……..Why is everything you disagree with written in scriptures just a “PLAY” ON WORDS? Tell me if this is also just “a play on words”

    Paul said , Tell me this He that works Miracles among you, does He do it by works of Law or by the hearing of your Faith>  
    Peter said, Act 2:22….>   Ye men of Israel, hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth, “A MAN” approved of God among you (how?) by “MIRACLES” and “WONDERS” and SIGNS, which “God did” by him in the midst of you, as you yourselves also know. and again,

    Heb 2:4 ….. God also bearing them witness, both with “SIGNS” and “WONDERS”, and with divers “MIRACLES” , and gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT, according to his OWN WILL.  

    Mike this just a small tip on the iceberg of scriptures that back up that Faith  is “EVIDENCE”, I could list thousands of them. So Mike tell us are these also just “play on words” or are they hard “EVIDENCE”, given by GOD,  and if God did them, then for what reason or purpose would he,  if not for “EVIDENCE” to Build “FAITH” in those who saw them, by way of that “EVIDENCE” produces..

    I for one can testify, I have seen many “EVIDENCES of the “UNSEEN GOD” in MY LIFE. or I would not be hear, that is for sure. My faith came by way of “EVIDENCE” given me by the INVISIBLE GOD, I can still remember them, they are an anchor to my Soul, they give me fuel to continue seeking God and his righteousness.  I do not base my Faith on others Faith, but my own Evidences, that is why it say “HAVE YOU FAITH ?> HAVE IT UNTO YOURSELF”>   FAITH IS A PERSONAL THING.

    To exclude EVIDENCE from the WORD FAITH may be your exact problem MIKE. You just put together what your carnal reasoning's and commentaries  of others tells you, and call it your Faith. I hope for your sake you do come to have “REAL” Faith instead of suppositions and reasoning's of carnal of men. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

    #374627
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2014,10:04)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2014,17:41)

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 23 2014,10:05)

    Hi Kerwin

    This is just getting too technical.

    Yes, Jesus was from the Seed of David from his mothers side, but his mothers egg had to be fertilized to produce this child.
    Jesus also came out of his Father.  Else he would not be the Son.


    Journey,

    There is no where in Scripture that it is written that Jesus' body was made both of his mother and of God.  The only thing that is written is that his flesh was made of Mary, the Seed of David.

    God is not like pagan gods who have been said to breed with mortals he is the Creator who made the physical worlds of heaven and earth from nothing.  God created both DNA as his blueprint and bodies for the souls to dwell in. He does not have an Y chromosome though he did create it.

    Jesus is a son of God just like every other believer is and that is by being born in his Spirit.  Jesus is the Son because he is the one of God's sons Jehovah appointed Heir of all things.


    Kerwin……….Good post i see it that way also brother.


    journey,

    You are correct:  Jesus, as a flesh human being, was the product of BOTH Mary and Jehovah.

    On earth, he was the son of God AND the Son of Man.

    The child within Mary was fathered by God, making the flesh man Jesus of Nazareth LITERALLY the Son of God and the son of Mary.

    But Nick, Kerwin, and Gene have a personal WISH for Jesus to have been nothing more than what they are – no better, no worse.  This makes them feel more empowered to accomplish the things Jesus accomplished.

    They only believe a part of the story of our Christ.  They ignore or change the many scriptures that speak of his existence before he was made in the likeness of a human being.

    God sent His only begotten into the world – He didn't “make” an only begotten Son by giving him the Spirit at the Jordan.

    The being who came to be known as Jesus, son of Joseph on earth existed with much glory alongside His God Jehovah before the earth, the human beings, and all other things were created through him – which in turn was long before he was made flesh.

    They only believe half of the story, simply because they only WANT TO believe half of the story.

    Don't listen to them…… you have explained it according to the scriptures, and therefore, according to the truth of the matter.

    #374628
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2014,10:42)
    Now Mike tell us are these also just “play on words” or are they “EVIDENCE” given by GOD and if God did them then for what reason would he, if not to Build “FAITH” in those who saw them, by way of “EVIDENCE” .


    The signs and miracles you listed were clear EVIDENCE, Gene. Human beings could see these things with their own eyes, and touch them with their own hands.

    These pieces of real evidence helped to bolster people's faith that Jesus was the Messiah, that there would be a resurrection, and that the godly would be granted eternal life.

    See the difference? It didn't take “faith” to believe a formerly blind man regained sight – because they SAW it with their own eyes. They saw EVIDENCE of it, so it didn't require any FAITH to believe it.

    Faith, on the other hand, is the belief in something for which we HAVEN'T seen the evidence.

    Your post merely listed some signs and wonders which people DID have evidence of, and was therefore not a good response for what I said.

Viewing 20 posts - 16,161 through 16,180 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account