John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,141 through 16,160 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #374481
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2014,14:57)
    Hi j42,
    Is scripture not enough?
    Is it not the ultimate test?


    Nick.

    Yes; scripture is enough for believers,
    but many non believers need evidence.
    Like the jews,and other religions.

    wakeup.

    #374483
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2014,14:57)
    Hi j42,
    Is scripture not enough?
    Is it not the ultimate test?


    Nick

    No offence, but we are on different frequencies here.
    You did not understand a single thing I explained to you.

    #374493
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Nick,   2 Maccabees 2:4-8

    4 It was also contained in the same writing, how the prophet, being warned by God,
    commanded that the tabernacle and the ark should accompany him, till he came
    forth to the mountain where Moses went up, and saw the inheritance of God.

    5 And when Jeremias came thither he found a hollow cave:
    and he carried in thither the tabernacle, and the ark
    ,
    and the altar of incense, and so stopped the door.
    6 Then some of them that followed him, came up
    to mark the place: but they could not find it.

    7 And when Jeremias perceived it, he blamed them, saying:
    The place shall be unknown, till God gather together
    the congregation of the people, and receive them to mercy
    .

    8 And then the LORD will shew these things, and the majesty of the LORD shall appear,
    and there shall be a cloud as it was also shewed to Moses, and he shewed it
    when Solomon prayed that the place might be sanctified to the great God.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #374504
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2014,20:16)
    Hi,
    The Spirit of God creates[ps 104]
    Man was created and Jesus was a man.

    The Spirit of God was his father too.


    He is the Son of God, Nick…….. not the Son of the Holy Spirit of God.

    God caused Mary to become pregnant VIA His Holy Spirit, but God Himself is Jesus' Father.

    #374505
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2014,14:12)
    Hi J42,
    The Holy Spirit fully represents God and is God.
    We do not try to separate God from His Spirit any more that we separate a man from his spirit.
    God is spirit.
    Acts 5.3-4


    Nick………….This is true, the Holy Spirit, is the LORD (YAHWEH) who is OUR GOD'S SPIRIT, and if that Spirit dwell in a person then they ARE A SPIRITUAL SON of GOD also, Just as Jesus is.

    All flesh is also of GOD and can be consider son of God even in a physical sense to, Just as Jesus said, when he told his disciples, before they had received the holy Spirit, pray this way   OUR FATHER who art in heaven……..> , and again, Will not your Father who is  in heaven give them of his Spirit, who ask for it., and again he tells Mary, go and tell them i am going to My Father and “YOUR” Father MY GOD and “YOUR” God. all of this was done before the Holy Spirit was made available to all flesh, on the day of Pentecost>

    Many here do not believe our God who IS SPIRIT and was actually “IN” Jesus, no matter how many times he said he was, They try to make Jesus the God who was “IN” him and that is EXACTLY What Satan wants them to do.

    They can not understand it , Paul said that this was the great “Mystery”, it what HOW GOD THE FATHER WAS “IN” JESUS. He know Jesus was not GOD, not now or ever was. These people have fallen for the Biggest LIE ever fostered on humanity, it is exactly what Satan want them to believe>

    Satan Hate all mankind , because of their position given them by God. AS Hebrews says, “What is man (mankind) that thou art mindful of him or the son of man, that so kind to him(mankind) you should be, you have made him a little lower then the angels , But you have Crowned him with GLORY and HONOR, and have put “ALL” Thing under his (mankind's) feet, and in that it says “ALL THINGS”, there is “NOTHING” That is not under his (mankind's) feet,  But we do not “YET” (or Now) see “ALL” things under his (mankind's) feet, but what do we see?, we see Jesus Christ (who is another man from mankind) who was made a little lower then the angels for the tasting of death like we do, “NOW” Crowned with Glory and Honor and all things are “NOW” under his feet.

    The first MAN to attained to that God intended God for all human KIND. SATAN hates all of mankind because of what God has given to us, He hates all of mankind, and that included Jesus, and he does not want us to see our potential in Christ Jesus , so he immediately after Jesus  ascended,  started this false teaching of Jesus being DIFFERENT then the Rest of humanity, he first used the GNOSTIC”S to start to create this “DOCTRINE of SEPARATION”, which created a Jesus who was different then the rest of Humanity , it has worked,  and nearly all Christendom has bought this great iniquity which works in the children of disobedience. “THOU SHALL HAVE “NO' OTHER GOD BESIDES ME”. 

    This LIE of making Jesus a Preexisting God and completely different then the rest of human kind,  is exactly what Satan, and his Messenger wants us to believe. But God has granted a few who LOVE the TRUTH to see though it.

    2 Ths 2. Because they received not the “LOVE of THE TRUTH”, GOD has sent then a deluding Spirit in order for then to “BELIEVE a LIE”.  That LIE is that Jesus Preexisted his berth and is a God, that he is “DIFFERENT” then we are.  But thanks be to God the Father, because He has granted some the ability to see through it.

    peace and love to you and yours Nick…………………gene

    #374506
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 21 2014,19:51)
    So, technology has shown us the makeup of what is in that blood found on the ark of the covenant,
    and it proves that from this human blood sample, which is supposed to be dead blood, it is in fact still alive,
    and therefore can still be tested.


    Hi journey,

    I watched part 1 and 2 of the “living blood” video.

    The “technical evidence” was provided by a guy who seemed to be sitting in front of some 1950's scientific equipment, who then showed us a slide under a microscope of some unidentifiable black dots bouncing around – as if the slide was being vibrated.

    He produced no other scientific evidence of these so-called “source of life” black dots that remain alive forever in white blood cells.

    Mr. Wyatt showed no evidence of even finding the ark of the covenant – only his word for it.

    He showed no evidence of where this blood actually came from (no photos or videos of him uncovering the ark and scraping off any blood).

    And he didn't even name the Israeli lab that did the blood tests – he called it “such and such” lab.

    So you and he are asking us to believe, on this one guy's word, that he alone discovered the ark of the covenant, and that it didn't even make the news in Israel – let alone the entire world.  I can't imagine the Israelis suppressing evidence that would vindicate, if not their God, at least the Jewish story of history as recorded by Jewish writers.

    And you're asking us to believe that this ark was, for some reason, placed by God Himself under the spot where Jesus was crucified – just so some of Jesus' blood would run down through a crack in the earth (which later disappeared) and settle on that ark.  And that when God caused this ark and blood to finally be found by this one man, he would take it to a lab he can't name, where they somehow proved the blood was alive, had 24 chromosomes, and indeed belonged to Jesus Christ himself.  But then they covered up all that earth-shaking news, and all that is left is this one guy going around telling people it happened.

    There are just too many riddles, and not near enough solid evidence to support the claims this guy is making.

    #374507
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2014,21:12)
    Hi J42,

    1. The Holy Spirit fully represents God and is God.

    2. We do not try to separate God from His Spirit any more that we separate a man from his spirit.

    3. God is spirit.
    Acts 5.3-4


    1. The Holy Spirit is OF God, Nick.

    2. Nor do we say that the father of YOUR son is “the spirit of Nick”. Or the “sperm of Nick”. Or the “love of Nick”.

    All of these things you POSSESS may have been involved in the creation of your son, but “NICK” is his father – not the various things you possess.

    3. Try reading verse 9 for a better understanding of lying to the Spirit of the Lord.

    #374509
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 21 2014,21:38)
    Mike,
    Can I have a discussion with you on this?
    at least I'll get some reasons from you why you might disagree or agree.
    Can you move this subject somewhere else?
    This guy is trying to act too mysterious for me,
    I can't have a decent conversation with him.


    journey,

    I see you already started another thread on Wyatt's findings.  If there is CONCRETE evidence of his claims on those videos, I'll give them a once-over.  Is there?

    As for Nick, I don't know what to tell you.  It is indeed hard to have a decent scriptural discussion with him, for his core beliefs are always shrouded in mystery.  But he has a good knowledge of scripture, and once in a rare while, a true gem will emerge from his endless parade of empty prattle.

    I suggest you just ignore the other 99% of his posts, which are nothing but condescending quips apparently designed to show his superiority, and our inferiority.  That's what I do.

    #374510
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 22 2014,02:45)
    4 ……till he came forth to the mountain where Moses went up, and saw the inheritance of God.

    5 And when Jeremias came thither he found a hollow cave:
    and he carried in thither the tabernacle, and the ark
    ……


    Unless Jesus was crucified on the mountain where Moses died, Mr. Wyatt's story doesn't match the Maccabees account.

    #374511
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 22 2014,15:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2014,14:57)
    Hi j42,
    Is scripture not enough?
    Is it not the ultimate test?


    Nick.

    Yes; scripture is enough for believers,
    but many non believers need evidence.
    Like the jews,and other religions.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup……There in lies the problem many believe suppositions of men and have no evidence to support their claims. But what does scriptures say REAL FAITH is .

    Faith “IS” the substance of things “HOPED for, The “EVIDENCE” of things not seen.

    Wakeup did you see the Word EVIDENCE there Wakeup. Now this is the true meaning of the word Faith, not what you read in the dictionary, because it excludes the word “EVIDENCE” but scripture includes it.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

    #374519
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2014,03:36)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 22 2014,15:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2014,14:57)
    Hi j42,
    Is scripture not enough?
    Is it not the ultimate test?


    Nick.

    Yes; scripture is enough for believers,
    but many non believers need evidence.
    Like the jews,and other religions.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup……There in lies the problem many believe suppositions of men and have no evidence to support their claims. But what does scriptures say REAL FAITH is .

    Faith “IS” the substance of things “HOPED for, The “EVIDENCE” of things not seen.    

    Wakeup did you see the Word EVIDENCE there Wakeup. Now this is the  true meaning  of the word Faith, not what you read in the dictionary, because it excludes the word “EVIDENCE” but scripture includes it.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene


    Gene B.

    You are not concentrating.
    I did not say that true believers need any evidence.
    But the non believing gentiles do.

    Jesus had to authenticate Himslef by showing miracles.
    That can be seen with the eye.

    wakeup.

    #374521
    Wakeup
    Participant

    #374525
    Wakeup
    Participant

    #374526
    Wakeup
    Participant

    #374529
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    I have my flash turned off since it is a security risk for my computer. Give me some details about the vidios you are posting and why I should let them and the sites they are at inside my secured area.

    #374530
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 22 2014,22:36)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 22 2014,15:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2014,14:57)
    Hi j42,
    Is scripture not enough?
    Is it not the ultimate test?


    Nick.

    Yes; scripture is enough for believers,
    but many non believers need evidence.
    Like the jews,and other religions.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup……There in lies the problem many believe suppositions of men and have no evidence to support their claims. But what does scriptures say REAL FAITH is .

    Faith “IS” the substance of things “HOPED for, The “EVIDENCE” of things not seen.    

    Wakeup did you see the Word EVIDENCE there Wakeup. Now this is the  true meaning  of the word Faith, not what you read in the dictionary, because it excludes the word “EVIDENCE” but scripture includes it.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene


    Gene,

    Excellent argument of why a dictionary definition is flawed.

    #374532
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,10:20)
    Journey,

    Quote
    Humans are made from their mother and fathers genes packed into bundles called chromosomes..

    Except for some odd cases that is correct. One of the more common is monozygotic whose dna comes from the parent twin.


    Journey,

    Basically Jesus would be equivalent to being Mary's monozygotic twin that had a mutation changing one of his x chromosomes to a y and being conceived from one of her adult cells.

    God is after all a technician beyond compare.

    None of his non-existent dna was required for the miracle of Jesus' conception as Jesus was 100% made from the Seed of David. Mary being that Seed.

    The AV of the KJV teaches that Jesus was made from the seed of David as of the flesh in Roman 1:3 and made of a woman in Galatians 4:4.

    #374534
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 23 2014,04:45)


    #374535
    kerwin
    Participant

    Journey,

    I have heard nothing about the ark of the covenant being found. Have you tested the spirit of that claim?

    #374536
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,11:59)
    Faith “IS”……. the “EVIDENCE” of things not seen.    

    Wakeup did you see the Word EVIDENCE there Wakeup. Now this is the  true meaning  of the word Faith, not what you read in the dictionary, because it excludes the word “EVIDENCE” but scripture includes it. [/quote]
    Gene,

    Excellent argument of why a dictionary definition is flawed.


    I disagree, Kerwin. Faith is truly believing WITHOUT any hard “evidence”.

    Paul was making a play on words, saying his faith was in fact the “evidence” of the things he can't see with his own eyes.

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