John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,181 through 16,200 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #374631
    david
    Participant

    I'm not sure why Ed has a tile, or if he should have a tile because of a belief, but regarding the interesting and somewhat related conversation in the semi private thread about a kangaroo court, Ed said:

    A. Neither the Greek, nor the Hebrew has “indefinite articles”
    So Jesus could not have said ‘one of you is A devil’
    B. And likewise none of the 12 Greek definite articles were used,
    So Jesus equally could not have said ‘one of you is THE devil’
    C. Therefore: “Jesus was NOT calling Judas 'the devil' nor was Jesus even calling Judas 'a devil'”
    is a true statement, even though you may yet consider it wrong.

    Ed, of course Jesus didn't say those words because those are English words. The question is what did he mean. As you know indefinite articles don't exist in Greek but surely that meaning is sometimes conveyed. If he did not use a definite article “the” it is likely that he meant he was “a devil,” and doesn't the word that is often translated “devil” just as easily mean slanderer/liar, or something like that?

    Instead of saying Jesus was not calling…., we should say Jesus was not meaning….

    Don't want to take this topic off course but I'm not allowed to mention this in the other thread. And no one anywhere wants to talk about or acknowledge the existence of slavery so I am left with this.

    #374633
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike………..You failed to answer, for what reason they were done? There is no scripture that say Faith is a supposition of reason of man own mind as you false believe.  Without EVIDENCE from God, you simply have NO PERSONAL FAITH, that God is present in your life , there is nothing God does with out giving EVIDENCE for the PURPOSE of BUILDING FAITH and TRUST IN HIM, again I say NOTHING.

    The apostles, Jesus , and all Saint's  did not do the thing they did without this, “HARD EVIDENCES” in them and their lives or they simply could not have done them. Why because all thing work by Faith,  FAITH is the FUEL NEED to endure. I tis what was in the Vessels of the ten virgins, they had it and were able to go into the wedding feast , while the foolish did not have it and were not able to make it into the weeding feast.

    To him who has the ears let him hear.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene

    #374634
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (david @ Mar. 23 2014,11:17)
    Don't want to take this topic off course but I'm not allowed to mention this in the other thread. And no one anywhere wants to talk about or acknowledge the existence of slavery so I am left with this.


    No one wants to talk about slavery with you, so you thought you'd bring a big post about Ed's kangaroo court thread to the middle of this discussion? ???

    Why not jump into the discussion(s) we're actually having in this thread right now instead?

    #374635
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2014,11:19)
    Mike………..You failed to answer, for what reason they were done? There is no scripture that say Faith is a supposition of reason of man own mind as you false believe.  


    I told you the signs were done to BOLSTER people's faith, Gene.

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2014,11:19)
    Without EVIDENCE from God,  you simply have NO PERSONAL FAITH, that God is present in your life ………….


    You are missing the point, Gene.  “Faith”, by very definition, is the belief in something WITHOUT hard evidence of that thing.

    But I have better things to do with my time than discuss this with you.  Believe what you want to believe.

    #374636
    david
    Participant

    Mike. This discussion is 1200 pages long. Where would I begin?

    #374638
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Well, who do YOU think “the Word” from John 1:1 is/was? And why do you think that?

    #374639
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Or, you could weigh in on whether or not the flesh being Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God AND the son of Mary.

    Or you could help Gene to understand that “faith”, by its very definition, is the belief in something WITHOUT evidence.

    #374640
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Oh, and we are also ALWAYS discussing the Trinity, on this thread as well as on every thread – as you already know.

    So you can give your opinion/knowledge on that in this thread.

    (Btw, you are welcome to comment in the kangaroo court thread. It is in the Hot Seat section, but it is open to all.)

    #374666
    david
    Participant

    We have been round and round on these things.  1200 pages in this thread.  150,000 pages all together on John 1:1 probably.

    My belief is that its pointless to start with John 1:1 because depending on belief it can go either way.  And it's impossible to prove otherwise.  Otherwise we would have done so.  

    That we can spend tens of thousands of pages discussion john 1:1C, is interesting.  What is interesting is that even if proven one way or the other it wouldn't change a lot.  It wouldn't change people's beliefs.

    Belief persistence, confirmation bias, and 40 other mental shortcuts that betray us will have us see as we want to see.

    On the other hand, gigantic topics like forced labour and ownership of said labor and the treatment of said labour lasted for thousands of years, and continues today, and should still be going on as I understand, and has touched all cultures.  

    And yet.  

    Silence.

    I have a theory. Because John 1:1c can be argued both ways so easily it is.  And when we focus on our own beliefs which we can justify its easy to continue on with that justifiable conversation. But with more emotional subjects, ones where there seems to be only one side, we use those same faulty mental short cuts to justify closing our minds to those things.

    John 1:1c.  Should be the very very last scripture a person who is studying the trinity should look at.  After you are sure there is or isn't a trinity, then look at John 1:1c.  And translate it accordingly.

    #374667
    david
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2014,04:47)
    Or, you could weigh in on whether or not the flesh being Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God AND the son of Mary.

    Or you could help Gene to understand that “faith”, by its very definition, is the belief in something WITHOUT evidence.


    For simplicity sake I've started referring faith (and also conscience) as belief or beliefs.

    It doesn't quite fit but helps with understanding a lot of things.

    MIKE

    you have faith in god.

    Would you say you have this faith with no evidence?

    #374705
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 23 2014,13:19)
    It's worth the time to learn and watch,rather than chattering.


    Wakeup,

    Not that I am aware of.  I read a lot and book have no personal interrelationship and are open to interpretation.  The author can be, and often is, full of nonsense.  They do not challenge my believes as much as debate does.  There is no cross examining them.  A poor substitute for debate and that is the written word. A video is much worse as I can go at my own speed in reading.

    #374707
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    You are correct: Jesus, as a flesh human being, was the product of BOTH Mary and Jehovah.

    When did you arrive at this new belief?

    #374709
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 23 2014,10:05)

    Quote
    Journey,

    Basically Jesus would be equivalent to being Mary's monozygotic twin that had a mutation changing one of his x chromosomes to a y and being conceived from one of her adult cells.  

    God is after all a technician beyond compare.

    None of his non-existent dna was required for the miracle of Jesus' conception as Jesus was 100% made from the Seed of David.  Mary being that Seed.

    The AV of the KJV teaches that Jesus was made from the seed of David as of the flesh in Roman 1:3 and made of a woman in Galatians 4:4.


    Hi Kerwin

    Thank you for that.  This is just getting too technical.

    Yes, Jesus was from the Seed of David from his mothers side, but his mothers egg had to be fertilized to produce this child.
    Jesus also came out of his Father.  Else he would not be the Son.


    Journey,

    My point is that with identical twins there is no fertilization required sin one twin splits off from its parent twin. The only thing is a complex mutation is necessary in order for the child twin to become male instead female in gender. God already performed a similar miracle when Eve was conceived of the virgin Adam.

    #374710
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2014,22:58)
    See the difference?  It didn't take “faith” to believe a formerly blind man regained sight – because they SAW it with their own eyes.  They saw EVIDENCE of it, so it didn't require any FAITH to believe it.

    Faith, on the other hand, is the belief in something for which we HAVEN'T seen the evidence.


    Mike,

    Jesus did not say that because people saw a miracle he performed they no longer had faith instead when certain mean broke through the roof to bring their friend before a miracle worker he say their faith and told the man who was sick, “your sins are forgiven”.

    #374711
    kerwin
    Participant

    Gene,

    Mike is both right and wrong. Faith itself is evidence. To Abraham God's word alone was enough evidence because he had faith in it. Even then I do not believed that God's word was true based on blind faith but he had evidence that it was true in other ways.

    #374721
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 22 2014,08:34)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 21 2014,07:52)
    not god but God!


    jammin,

    You keep saying the same thing over and over – but you saying it doesn't make it scripturally accurate, or true.

    YOU YOURSELF told me that Jesus had limitations on earth.  So, is that your way of ADMITTING that Jesus was NOT God on earth?  YES or NO?

    And I pointed out to you that Jesus STILL has limitations in heaven, even after he has been exalted by his and our God, Jehovah.  (He is in heaven waiting for his God to place his enemies at his feet, right?)

    So do you ACKNOWLEDGE that Jesus STILL has limitations – and is therefore not “God”?  YES or NO?

    And finally, I will remind you that there is only ONE Almighty Creator of all things.  Jesus either IS that Creator, or he is the SON OF that Creator.  He CAN'T be both.  So which one does the SCRIPTURES tell us Jesus is?


    if you will ask me about the HUMAN nature of Christ, then my answer is yes.

    Jesus created the heavns and earth

    Hebrews 1:10
    New International Version (NIV)
    10 He also says,

    “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    unless you dont want to accept that verse then you have to make your own heb 1.10 hahahah

    #374722
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 22 2014,07:33)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 22 2014,01:00)
    wakeup,

    Jesus is God just like his father. they have the same nature, GOd.

    a very good example is you and yoru father. you are both HUMAN. you and your father have the same nature, HUMAN.


    Jammin.

    1.Is the Word of God His Word,or God Himself?
    2.Is the Holy Spirit God's Spirit,or God Himself?
    3.Is love of God;God's love, or God Himself?
    4.Is wisdom God's wisdom, or God Himself?
    5.Christ in us;does it make us Christ?

    wakeup.


    john 1.1 the Word of God is a title of Christ. it's a word coming out from the mouth of God (father).

    rev 19.13 told us that this is a name or title of Christ.
    the Word of God (Christ) is God by nature. (john 1.1).

    he is just like his father. The son is God just like his father.

    #374723
    jammin
    Participant

    ed,

    Philippians 2:6-7
    New International Version (NIV)
    6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    do you understand that?

    #374727
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2014,13:10)
    Gene,

    Mike is both right and wrong.  Faith itself is evidence.   To Abraham God's word alone was enough evidence because he had faith in it.  Even then I do not believed that God's word was true based on blind faith but he had evidence that it was true in other ways.


    Kerwin………………… The current dictionary is “ABRIDGED” which mean the word meanings have changed over time from the original, if you can find an original dictionary it should back up what scripture says Faith “IS”.

    If God were to talk to you in an audible way, that alone is EVIDENCE of the unseen GOD. Mike is wrong completely, Paul gives us the correct definition what the word Faith means. Mike is the one who does a play on the words here , not the apostle Paul, as Mike does many other scriptures. Like John 1:1 and on and on it goes. We are told clearly,

    Faith “IS” the Substance of things hoped for, THE “EVIDENCE” of thing not seen.

    Moses became a servant of God AFTER he got his EVIDENCE, You must put God to the test , in order to get your real evidence or proof of the invisible God, This has been lost today, as people simply believe suppositions like Mike and call it their faith. God is a God of PROOF, and tell us, with word like “prove me herewith, and see if i will not open the heaven and pour out blessing on you”. Some like Giddion had to have God perform several miracles before he would believe, he need more evidence, even though God has spoken to him, God was with him and understood and gave him his proof he needed to be convinced, God is a GOD of PROOF.

    This real Faith is what you must have in order to have your fuel that will continue to drive you into the wedding feast, The foolish who have only a little will not be able to enter and will be turned away when the time comes. IMO

    Jesus said When the Son of Man return will he find “FAITH” on the earth. Men are not being tuned to their reality of God in their own lives, but unto worldly chatter from carnal minds which produce NO PROOF or EVIDENCE of GOD in their lives juts chatter is all. In fact that is why you don't see hardly any big performed MIRACLES today, it is because of lack of TRUE FAITH. It is not because God would not do them , it because Men do not have the Faith to move God to do them. IMO

    Jesus told us the his true believers would do more works then he did, because he was leaving the world going to the Father, Please show me where that is at today, and why? is it not because of the lack of TRUE FAITH? Human reasoning is futile it produces nothing but arguments and bickering, it does not advance Faith but on the contrary it destroy's it.

    Those who have been given the Spirit of Truth, Know the Truth when they hear it, all others are simply not of Christ. But a person who thinks he can have Faith without hard evidence is a fool and will fall for anything, I have learned to never base my Faith on what men or religious organisations say, but my OWN “HARD” EVIDENCE that God has Given ME, it is sufficient for me.

    peace and love to you and your………………………gene

    #374728
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 25 2014,00:46)
    ed,

    Philippians 2:6-7
    New International Version (NIV)
    6 Who, being in very nature God,
       did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
       by taking the very nature of a servant,
      being made in human likeness.

    do you understand that?


    Jammin ……….Are you made in Human LIKENESS. Do you have the Nature of God in you?, Is your body the temple of the Living God?, are you a Brother of Jesus?, are you a “JOINT HEIR with Him? Do you believe it says Jesus Christ the first Born of “MANY” BROTHERS and SISTERS. Do you believe Jesus said he could do “NOTHING” of HIMSELF?, do you believe Jesus was a HUMAN BEING. or do you believe he was a God “disguised” as a human being?

    Paul was not talking about Jesus existence before his berth on earth , He was talking about Jesus when he was on earth he had the Nature of God it was “IN” Him, That did not make Jesus a GOD of any kind. or a Preexisted being either.

    peace and love………………………………gene

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