John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,561 through 15,580 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #371636
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike.

    Quote

    Again, you are talking in riddles. For one, love is never said to have BECOME God, where the Word IS said to have BECOME flesh.

    God has always been love but the word has not always been flesh. There was a time that it was made flesh. John is speaking of this time. It is a transitional period where it changed from the word not having the attribute of flesh to being given the attribute of flesh.

    John 1:8 is speaking of the light and it teaches us the John does not have the attribute of the light but he bears witness to the one that does. Jesus is that one as Jesus later said “I am the light of the world” in John 9:5. It is the same pastern as used to show that love is an attribute of God.

    #371637
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote

    So if “wisdom” was being personified as Christ AFTER Christ was flesh, what scriptural reason do you have to say wisdom was NOT being personified as the living breathing person Jesus Christ in Proverbs 8?

    Wisdom is mentioned in other chapters than chapter 8 of Proverbs and it is spoken of as a female. Jesus is male. A major exhibit of evidence is that wisdom is what kings reign by. Jesus is the archetype of those kings.

    #371639
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    And if the Word of God was personified as Christ AFTER Christ was flesh, what scriptural reason do you have to say the Word of God, through whom all things were created, was not being personified as the living breathing person Jesus Christ in John 1:1-3, BEFORE Jesus became flesh?

    “was” is the past tense of “is” and like God is love the word was God should not be taken literal. Instead it is saying God is an attribute of the word. I think that is where the translation the word is divine is coming from.

    #371643
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,12:22)
    Mike.

    Quote

    Again, you are talking in riddles.  For one, love is never said to have BECOME God, where the Word IS said to have BECOME flesh.

    God has always been love but the word has not always been flesh.  


    Start again, Kerwin.

    Has love always been God? Put the words in the right order, and try again.

    #371644
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,12:22)
    John 1:8 is speaking of the light and it teaches us the John does not have the attribute of the light but he bears witness to the one that does. Jesus is that one as Jesus later said “I am the light of the world” in John 9:5. It is the same pastern as used to show that love is an attribute of God.


    It can't be the “same pattern” if you are reversing the order of the words.

    To match “love is an attribute of God”, you must say that “the word is an attribute of flesh”.

    And that does not match with “flesh is an attribute of the word”. Can you see the difference?

    Also, if John 1:8 teaches that John bears witness to the one who has the attribute of light, and that one is “Jesus”, then “Jesus” is also the one spoken of in John 1:1-7.

    #371645
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,12:34)
    Wisdom is mentioned in other chapters than chapter 8 of Proverbs and it is spoken of as a female.  Jesus is male.


    Kerwin, do you know the difference between “grammatical gender” and “physical gender”?  Whether or not the “wisdom” in Proverbs 8 was Jesus, it was NOT a physical female.  You do understand that, right?

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,12:34)
    A major exhibit of evidence is that wisdom is what kings reign by.


    Only a part of Proverbs 8 describes the one through whom God created all things as “wisdom”.  Other parts of it speak of literal wisdom.

    (Neither meaning refers to a female, though the word is grammatically feminine.)

    Many other scriptural passages do the same.  Many times in the NT, the writers attribute only certain parts of a psalm or other passage to Jesus.  The entire psalm or passage doesn't refer to Jesus – only parts of it.  Do you understand this?  Are you then able to understand the same thing about Proverbs 8? Only verses 22-31 refer to Jesus as the first work God ever created.

    #371646
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,12:43)
    Mike,

    Quote
    And if the Word of God was personified as Christ AFTER Christ was flesh, what scriptural reason do you have to say the Word of God, through whom all things were created, was not being personified as the living breathing person Jesus Christ in John 1:1-3, BEFORE Jesus became flesh?

    “was” is the past tense of “is” and like God is love the word was God should not be taken literal.  Instead it is saying God is an attribute of the word.  I think that is where the translation the word is divine is coming from.


    More riddles. ???

    First of all, you didn't actually address my question, nor show me a scripture that would prohibit Jesus from being the living breathing being who is the word personified BEFORE he was made in the likeness of a human being.

    And secondly, God is not an attribute of the word. The word could be an attribute of God, but not the other way around.

    Are YOU even sure what you're saying? Because it seems you are just placing words together in a sentence, without even knowing for sure what that sentence ends up saying.

    #371657
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Feb. 23 2014,03:24][/quote]

    Quote
    If “The Word of God” DIDN'T used to be an individual living breathing being, but then BECAME an individual living breathing being, that individual living breathing being HAD A BEGINNING.

    Mike,

    WHEN YOU LOOK AT GOD'S THINGS FROM A HUMAN SIDE POINT OF VIEW, YOU ARE RIGHT

    BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT GOD'S THINGS FROM GOD'S POINT OF VIEW YOU ARE WRONG

    Now Mike,

    Does your word goes out of your mouth and return back, NEVER MIND WHETHER IF IT SHALL PROSPER OR NOT!

    BUT GOD'S WORD DID

    YOU SAID THAT:

    IF “The Word of God” DIDN'T used to be an individual living breathing being,AND BECAME SO IT HAD TO HAVE A BEGINNING!

    FROM GOD SIDE NOT REALLY!

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT SINCE GOD IS ETERNAL, WHATEVER HE DOES CONCERNING HIMSELF, WHICH INCLUDES ALSO THE WORD MADE FLESH  IT WOULD BE ALSO ETERNAL, EVEN IF WE DETERMINE THE OPPOSITE!

    SO IT DIDN'T HAVE A BEGINNING!

    NOW ANSWER:

    WHEN A BUTTERFLY COMES OUT OF HIS COCOON, WHICH HE HIMSELF PREVIOUSLY BUILT AS A CATERPILLAR,

    WAS THE BUTTERFLY IN EXISTENCE BUT AS A CATERPILLAR ?

    WAS THE BUTTERFLY  THE SAME BEING BUT AS A CATERPILLAR?

    DIDN'T THEREFORE THE BUTTERFLY ALTHOUGH HE HAD A BEGINNING, IN THE SAME TIME HE WAS ALREADY IN EXISTENCE PREVIOUSLY THEREFORE HE NEVER REALLY HAD A BEGINNING AT ALL, BUT SIMPLY WHAT WE CALL A COMPLETE TRANSFORMATION?

    ALSO:

    A transsexual person EXPERIENCES TWO COMPLETE DIFFERENT  BEGINNINGS! ONE WHEN HE WAS BORN , WHICH HE COULD NEVER REMEMBER, AND ANOTHER NEW BIRTH WHICH HE HIMSELF GAVE  TO ITSELF, AND TO HIMSELF WHICH REMAINS TILL DEATH!

    THEREFORE ALTHOUGH THAT PERSON WAS BORN IN COMPLETE DIFFERENT BEING HE STILL WAS ALREADY IN EXISTENCE PREVIOUSLY  BUT IN AN OPPOSITE KIND OF BEING!

    SO! WITH THE SAME ARGUMENTS:

    CAN GOD DO WHAT HE COULD AND DID WITH A MERE WORM

    AND ALSO WHAT HIS CREATURES DO TO THEMSELVES?

    THEREFORE TO HIMSELF, IN HIS UNIQUE MYSTERIOUS WAYS TO PLEASE HIMSELF AS HIS CREATURES PLEASED THEMSELVES?

    SO

    THE WORD WAS BORN AS A CHILD! BUT HE STILL DIDN'T HAVE A BEGINNING, SINCE HE WAS ALSO THE SON OF GOD,

    THE WORD WAS BORN A CHILD IN THE SAME WAY THAT THE SUN ENTERS THROUGH A GLASS AND PASS ONTO THE OTHERSIDE AND IT REMAINS THE SAME SUN  IN ALL ITS  CHARACTERISTICS

    THAT’S HOW MUCH GOD NEEDED THE WOMAN TO BE BORN IN THE WORD MADE FLESH!

    BELIEVE IT OR NOT :

    MARY WAS NOT A WOMAN LIKE ALL WOMAN BUT A NEW THING FOR GOD SINCE GOD NEVER NEEDED A MAN, A SPERM, THEREFORE ALSO WHATEVER A WOMAN NEEDED IN ORDER TO SERVE MAN!

    AS A PROOF THAT HE NEVER HAD A BEGINNING IN THE TRUTH!

    THIS IS CONFIRMED IN:

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    SO IF GOD SAID:

    For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, SO ARE MY WAYS EXALTED ABOVE YOUR WAYS, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    THEREFORE:

    ALL HUMANS IN ORDER TO BE BORN, A SPERM, AND AN OVUM MUST BE FUSED! SO THERE HAS TO BE AN ACT WHICH NEVER HAD BEEN BEFORE , BETWEEN TWO DIFFERENT ELEMENTS! THEREFORE A COMPLETE NEW BEGINNING!

    THE WORD BECAME FLESH WITHOUT ANY SPERM AT ALL!

    THE WORD BECAME FLESH WITHOUT ANY FUSION OF TWO DIFFERENT ELEMENTS AT ALL!

    THE WORD BECAME FLESH FROM ONE ELEMENT, ONE SPIRIT! ONE ETERNAL SPIRIT! GOD'S!

    THEREFORE ALWAYS ETERNAL NO MATTER WHAT REGARDING GOD'S PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES!

    AND STILL LOOK THE OPPOSITE ACCORDING TO ISAIAH!

    THIS IS CALLED PARADOX

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371659
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote
    A transsexual person EXPERIENCES TWO COMPLETE DIFFERENT BEGINNINGS! ONE WHEN HE WAS BORN , WHICH HE COULD NEVER REMEMBER, AND ANOTHER NEW BIRTH WHICH HE HIMSELF GAVE TO ITSELF, AND TO HIMSELF WHICH REMAINS TILL DEATH!

    THEREFORE ALTHOUGH THAT PERSON WAS BORN IN COMPLETE DIFFERENT BEING HE STILL WAS ALREADY IN EXISTENCE PREVIOUSLY BUT IN AN OPPOSITE KIND OF BEING!

    you mean from a sinner to a total corrupted soul ,right ???

    because all men have sinned but all men did not sold their soul to corruption

    #371660
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    THIS IS CONFIRMED IN:

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    [B]those scriptures do not confirm anything you said that is for sure , those verses only mean that God does not speaks like men full of hot air ,say much but cannot do much ,ON THE OTHER HAND GOD DOES WHAT HE SAYS AND NOTHING CAN STOP FROM DOING IT ,AND AS FOR HIS WAY OF THINKING YEAH IT IS TO FAR BE ON OUR GRASP TO UNDERSTAND IT .

    #371661
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 23 2014,04:01)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 22 2014,10:40)
    Mike………So your Words are not a expression of yourself………..

    Any on with half a brain can see a Persons words “ARE” a Representative of HIS MIND


    See the word “OF”, Gene?

    Do you know what that word means?  I learned it at a very early age.  Have you not yet learned it?

    If my words are an expression OF myself, then they can't possibly BE “myself”.

    If they are a representative OF my mind, then they can't very well BE “my mind”.

    Can you understand these things?


    Mike……..Yes i do know what OF means , it means your word are FROM YOURSELF, and therefore are a reflection of YOUR SPIRIT, not someone else's, Jesus said clearly, “THE WORDS I AM TELLING YOU “ARE” SPIRIT AND LIFE”. If you understood that, then you would know the source of “ALL” words “ARE” Spirit, and Jesus also said GOD was, A “SPIRIT” , now if you can put it together, you will have it. Words can NEVER BECOME FLESH that is impossible why< because they are SPIRIT or (INTELLECTS), BEING EXPRESSED BY SOUND. Words are INTELLIGENT UTTERANCES From the"SPIRITS" within us.

    Jesus plainly said what comes out of a mans MOUTH, is what defiles him,  Now Mike what is it that come out of a man MOUTH , His WORDS, right?, they are what express who that man IS> His words originate from his Spirit (INTELLECT) that is IN him in fact it is the mans Spirit itself, begin expressed out wordily Through sound coming from his own mouth.

    No word ever “BECAME” FLESH, Because word are SPIRIT and Spirit is not FLESH. Word can come to be “IN” Flesh beings though. God who is Spirit was “IN” Jesus and Spoke through Him Just as Jesus said He was, so GOD's Words which are Spirit as God is Spirit also was in Jesus , so God the FATHER who is Spirit was “IN” Jesus. Jesus was never God or GOD'S word HIMSELF, He simply Spoke GOD'S word to us as the SPIRIT of GOD gave him UTTERANCE.

    Haven't you read where Jesus told his disciples not to meditate beforehand on what they would say, if brought to trial , because it would be given them what to say (words) and it would not be them speaking, but the Spirit of GOD in their hearts speaking through them. Now Just transfer that to Jesus also, It was God the Father who is a Spirit (intellect) that was in Jesus speaking through Him also. None of the made Jesus the Word, nor his flesh either.  Spirit is NOT FLESH MIKE, never was and never will be either.

    This whole idea of a word being Flesh is a false teaching, because no Spirit is Flesh. Spirits are what is “IN” FLESH> Face it Mike you need to understand it the way you do so you can make John 1:1, say what you want it to and if you except the truth your whole house of cards will come crashing down, and you will have to admit you were in error. Now that is the reason for all of this right Mike , you simply can not stand to be proven wrong Mike, but none the less you are wrong Mike. IMO and others also I might add. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

    #371662
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Feb. 23 2014,01:10)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 23 2014,03:24)
    If “The Word of God” DIDN'T used to be an individual living breathing being, but then BECAME an individual living breathing being, that individual living breathing being HAD A BEGINNING.

    Mike,

    WHEN YOU LOOK AT GOD'S THINGS FROM A HUMAN SIDE POINT OF VIEW, YOU ARE RIGHT


    So since NONE OF US are able to look at it from anything other than a human side, and since God intended for HUMANS to be able to understand His written word, then let's just leave it as, “Mike, you are right.”

    #371664
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 23 2014,09:08)
    Words can NEVER BECOME FLESH that is impossible……..


    You need to tell that to Wakeup and Kerwin.  They're the ones who believe a literal spoken word from the mouth of God became a flesh being.  I have never believed such nonsense.

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 23 2014,09:08)
    Jesus plainly said what comes out of a mans MOUTH, is what defiles him,  Now Mike what is it that come out of a man MOUTH , His WORDS, right?,


    That's right Gene.  A man's WORDS come out of his mouth – NOT the MAN HIMSELF, right?

    And if it is not the MAN HIMSELF that comes out of the man's mouth, then a man's words are NOT the man himself, right?  So if you continue to preach that a person's words ARE the very person who spoke them, then you have to start teaching that THE MAN who comes out of a man's mouth is the one who defiles himself.  

    On the other hand, if you are NOT prepared to start preaching that nonsense, then be smart enough to STOP preaching that the words of a person ARE that person.

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 23 2014,09:08)
    Face it Mike you need to understand it the way you do so you can make John 1:1, say what you want it to……….


    Gene, against my better judgment, I'm going to try once again to explain a few things to you.  I am SINCERELY HOPING that you will consider the TRUTH of what I say.

    The following is YOUR understanding of John 1:1, Gene:

    In the beginning, there was God.  But then God spoke words out of His mouth.  And since a person's words actually ARE the person who spoke them, God effectively spoke HIMSELF out of His own mouth.

    Then the God who was spoken out of the mouth of the first God was both with that first God, and somehow also WAS that first God.  So by some bizarre twist of logic and reason, we ended up with a new God who was both with God and was God.

    Then the God who was spoken out of the first God's mouth became flesh, and ended up dwelling on earth as the SON of the first God – even though this second God still WAS the first God who spoke Him out of His mouth.

    Does that REALLY make sense to you, Gene?   ???

    Now, my turn……………

    1.  It is CLEAR from scripture that Jesus is indeed called a god.  You can't deny this, although you try to pretend Hebrews 1:8 doesn't exist.

    2.  It is CLEAR from scripture that all things, whether visible or invisible, whether in heaven or on earth, were created through JESUS.

    3.  It is CLEAR from scripture that JESUS is the ONLY one who ever became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

    4.  It is CLEAR from scripture that John the Baptist came to witness about none other than JESUS.

    5.  And it is CLEAR from scripture that JESUS is the one called “The Word of God” in Revelation 19:13.

    Gene, which one of the above claims can you SCRIPTURALLY refute?  None of them!

    So the teaching in John 1 involves a being that John calls “the Word of God”.  John also calls this same exact being “the Word of God” in Revelation 19:13.  That is our first clue.

    John tells us that this being called “the Word of God” was not only withTHE God Jehovah” in the beginning, but was also himself a god.  (This is supported by at least 5 scriptures, including Hebrews 1:8)

    John then tells us that Jehovah God created all things THROUGH this being.  (The being Jehovah created all things through is listed as JESUS in three or four other scriptures.)

    Then John tells us that this being was made flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of the only begotten from the Father.  (JESUS is the ONLY one that can be said about.)

    Then John tells us that John the Baptist came to testify concerning this particular “light of the world, which was the life of men”.  (John the Baptist only testified about ONE person……… JESUS.  And this person is also called “the light of the world” and the “life of men” in other scriptures.)

    And just in case there is any doubt about who “the Word” is, John CLEARLY tells us who it is in Revelation 19:13.

    So Gene, I'm not being “forced” to understand it any particular way for personal reasons.  I'm just understanding it as it was CLEARLY told to me through the scriptures.  And this is the short list.  There are many other things said about “the Word” in John 1 that are later said about JESUS in other scriptures.

    My understanding aligns with each and every scripture out there, and is supported and confirmed by MANY various scriptures throughout the NT.

    Now compare that with the travesty that you call “your understanding”.

    Gene, this was a treat for you.  I am trying to help.  But don't expect me to get all bogged down in a bunch of Charles-sized manifestos from you.  I don't spend a lot of time discussing these things with you because you have proven yourself to be a close-minded person, who only wants the scriptures to come out the way you WANT them to – despite the contradictions and clear TWISTING you have to do to those scriptures to make them come out that way.

    But at any rate, I hope you were able to digest at least some of the meat I just fed you.

    #371669
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 23 2014,01:07)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,12:22)
    Mike.

    Quote

    Again, you are talking in riddles.  For one, love is never said to have BECOME God, where the Word IS said to have BECOME flesh.

    God has always been love but the word has not always been flesh.  


    Start again, Kerwin.

    Has love always been God?  Put the words in the right order, and try again.


    Mike,

    They are in the order they appear in Scripture.  

    Perhaps you are thinking if the statement the word is God.  Possibly you could say Love is God and it is equivalent to saying Love is divine but even though I suspicion that us true in Koine Greek I do not know if it is.

    #371671
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 23 2014,01:11)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,12:22)
    John 1:8 is speaking of the light and it teaches us the John does not have the attribute of the light but he bears witness to the one that does.  Jesus is that one as Jesus later said “I am the light of the world” in John 9:5. It is the same pastern as used to show that love is an attribute of God.


    It can't be the “same pattern” if you are reversing the order of the words.

    To match “love is an attribute of God”, you must say that “the word is an attribute of flesh”.

    And that does not match with “flesh is an attribute of the word”.  Can you see the difference?

    Also, if John 1:8 teaches that John bears witness to the one who has the attribute of light, and that one is “Jesus”, then “Jesus” is also the one spoken of in John 1:1-7.


    Mike,

    I am not sure what you are trying to say. I do know that I checked the Geneva Bible version of Scripture for the words “was made” and came up with the phrase “all the house was made perfect” from 1 Kings 6:22. In that case the house is given the attribute of perfect. Another example is “Thus the field, and the cave that is therein, was made sure unto Abraham for a possession of burial by the Hittites” and once again the predicate on the right is made an attribute of the subject on the left. It is same with the statement God is love.

    #371684
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2014,11:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 23 2014,01:11)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,12:22)
    John 1:8 is speaking of the light and it teaches us the John does not have the attribute of the light but he bears witness to the one that does.  Jesus is that one as Jesus later said “I am the light of the world” in John 9:5. It is the same pastern as used to show that love is an attribute of God.


    It can't be the “same pattern” if you are reversing the order of the words.

    To match “love is an attribute of God”, you must say that “the word is an attribute of flesh”.

    And that does not match with “flesh is an attribute of the word”.  Can you see the difference?

    Also, if John 1:8 teaches that John bears witness to the one who has the attribute of light, and that one is “Jesus”, then “Jesus” is also the one spoken of in John 1:1-7.


    Mike,

    I am not sure what you are trying to say.  


    And that's because you're not even sure of what YOU'RE trying to say.  Okay, look………….

    Love is an attribute OF God.  So much so that one can poetically say “God IS love.”

    Notice how “God” is the CONCRETE subject, and “love” is an ABSTRACT thing.  So keeping the order of concrete and abstract, we can say:

    The Word is an attribute OF flesh.  So much so that one can poetically say “Flesh IS the Word.”

    Do you see how it works out if you keep the same order between the concrete subject, and the abstract attribute?  It's nonsensical, right?

    Now here it is the other way – starting with your claim about the Word first………..

    Flesh is an attribute OF the Word.  So much so, that in the case of Jesus, one can poetically say, “The Word IS flesh.”

    But let's try THAT order with “God” and “love”……….

    God is an attribute OF love.  So much so that one can poetically say, “Love IS God”.

    Now do you see it?  In your effort to make it seem like a viable comparison, you are reversing the orders of the concrete subject, and the abstract thing.

    If you cannot say “Love is God”, then you cannot say “The Word is flesh”.  And if you can say “God is love”, then you have to equate that with “Flesh is the Word”.

    Because “flesh” and “God” are the two concrete subjects.  While “love” and “the Word” are the two abstract things – according to you.

    So if you want to consider “the Word” as an abstract attribute, then you are saying that John 1:14 teaches that an abstract attribute actually IS a concrete thing.

    And that would be like saying the abstract attribute “love” actually IS the concrete thing “God”.

    And since “love” is NOT actually “God”, your attempt fails.

    Do you get it?

    #371694
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    So are you claiming a concrete thing can not become an aspect of an abstract thing.

    That claim lacks support.

    #371701
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,04:59)

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 21 2014,19:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2014,10:50)

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 20 2014,22:43)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 21 2014,01:58)
    To All…….> The LORD our GOD and His words are ONE AND THE SAME, just as your words and you are, one and the same being. Not an OUNCE of Difference as concerning words, only you and I simple do not have HIS POWER, to bring about our words, like, God the Father does. Neither did or does Jesus. Jesus never did ONE MIRACLE “HIMSELF” it was GOD the FATHER who us “IN” him doing the WORKS. Just as He said.  THE SON OF MAN CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF,THE FATHER  WHO IS IN HIM, “HE” DOES THE 'WORKS” Jesus took no Glory for what the Father was doing through Him. IMO

    peace and love to you all………………………………………gene


    my word can not be addressed as HE.

    do you understand that?

    unless you do not know basic english


    Jammin,

    In Koine Greek it is as word is masculine.

    John 1:3-5
    1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

    3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.

    4 In it was life, and that life was the light of men.

    5 And that light shineth in the wilderness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.


    you dont know greek kerwin. your argument here proves that you do not have enough knowledge about the greek language.


    Jammin,

    The writers of the Geneva bible used “it” instead of “he”.


    what about MOST of the translations? do you ignore the HE?

    as i have told you, you do not know greek kerwin. dont pretend that you know the language. you still have a long long way to go

    #371702
    jammin
    Participant

    We know that “the Word” is the subject because it has the definite article, and we translate it accordingly: “and the Word was God.” Two questions, both of theological import, should come to mind: (1) why was θεός thrown forward? and (2) why does it lack the article?

    In brief, its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality: “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father). That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has; lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not the Father. John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is, in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism.

    To state this another way, look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:

    καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν ὁ θεός
    “and the Word was the God”
    (i.e., the Father; Sabellianism)

    καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν θεός
    “and the Word was a god” (Arianism)

    καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
    “and the Word was God” (Orthodoxy).

    Jesus Christ is God and has all the attributes that the Father has.

    BY DANIEL B WALLACE

    who is daniel wallace?
    Daniel Baird Wallace (born 1952) is professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. He is also the founder and executive director of the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts, the purpose of which is digitizing all known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament via digital photographs.

    #371703
    jammin
    Participant

    learn the basic english for those who do not believe the Word is Christ.

    your words cant be addressed as HE while the Word in john 1.1 was addressed by john as HE.

Viewing 20 posts - 15,561 through 15,580 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account