John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,581 through 15,600 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #371704
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    or maybe you want to read the footnote of the GNV

    John 1:3

    1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

    3 [a]All [b]things were made by it, and [c]without it [d]was made nothing that was made.
    Footnotes:

    John 1:3 The son of God declareth that same his everlasting Godhead, both by the creating of all things, and also by the preserving of them, and especially by the excellent gifts of reason and understanding, wherewith he that beautified man above all other creatures.
    John 1:3 Paul expoundeth this place, Col. 1:15 and 16.
    John 1:3 That is, as the Father did work, so did the Son work with him: for he was fellow worker with him.
    John 1:3 Of all those things which were made, nothing was made without him.

    #371705
    jammin
    Participant

    geneva bible also tells us that the Word was with God and that Word is Christ.

    #371707
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Feb. 19 2014,09:35][/quote]

    Quote
    And let's face it, before God created the heavens and stars and planets, those things didn't exist, right?  So unless the elements those things are made of had already existed from eternity, God also brought those things forth from Himself.  Yet you say those things ARE created.   Hmmm………..

    Mike,

    THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A

    WHAT GOD EMANATES!

    AND WHAT GOD CREATS!

    CAN YOU SINCE YOU ARE FULL OF WORLDLY CORRUPTED WISDOM , LIKE ALL HUMANS,EXPLAIN, SINCE YOU ARE NOT READY TO BE TAUGHT, BUT ALWAYS READY TO FLEE AS SOON AS YOU SMELL SOMETHING SPIRITUALLY CLEAR AND QUITE UNCONFRONTABLE!

    LIKE FOR INSTANCE WHAT I POSTED HEREUNDER:

    YOU SAID THAT:

    IF “The Word of God” DIDN'T used to be an individual living breathing being,AND BECAME SO IT HAD TO HAVE A BEGINNING!

    FROM GOD SIDE NOT REALLY!

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT SINCE GOD IS ETERNAL, WHATEVER HE DOES CONCERNING HIMSELF, WHICH INCLUDES ALSO THE WORD MADE FLESH  IT WOULD BE ALSO ETERNAL, EVEN IF WE DETERMINE THE OPPOSITE!

    SO IT DIDN’T HAVE A BEGINNING!

    NOW ANSWER:

    WHEN BUTTERFLY COMES OUT OF HIS COCOON, WHICH HE HIMSELF PREVIOUSLY BUILT AS A CATERPILLAR,

    WAS THE BUTTERFLY IN EXISTENCE ?

    WAS THE BUTTERFLY  THE SAME BEING BUT AS A CATERPILLAR?

    DIDN’T THEREFORE THE BUTTERFLY ALTHOUGH HE HAD A BEGINNING,[B] WAS STILL IN EXISTENCE THEREFORE HE NEVER REALLY HAD A BEGINNING AT ALL, BUT SIMPLY WHAT WE CALL A COMPLETE TRANSFORMATION?

    SO! WITH THE SAME ARGUMENT:

    CAN GOD DO WHAT HE COULD AND DID WITH A MERE WORM BUT INSTEAD TO HIMSELF, LIKE IN THE SAME SENSE THE CATERRPILLAR DID WITH HIMSELF?

    SO

    THE WORD WAS BORN AS A CHILD! BUT HE STILL DIDN'T HAVE A BEGINNING, SINCE HE WAS ALSO THE SON OF GOD,

    THE WORD WAS BORN A CHILD IN THE SAME WAY THAT THE SUN ENTERS THROUGH A GLASS AND PASS ONTO THE OTHERSIDE AND IT REMAINS THE SAME SUN  IN ALL ITS  CHARACTERISTICS

    THAT’S HOW MUCH GOD NEEDED THE WOMAN TO BE BORN IN THE WORD MADE FLESH!

    BELIEVE IT OR NOT :

    MARY WAS NOT A WOMAN LIKE ALL WOMAN BUT A NEW THING FOR GOD SINCE GOD NEVER NEEDED A MAN, A SPERM, THEREFORE ALS WHATEVER A WOMAN NEEDED IN ORDER TO SERVE MAN!

    AS A PROOF THAT HE NEVER HAD A BEGINNING IN THE TRUTH!

    THIS IS CONFIRMED IN:

    [B] Isaiah 55:For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    SO IF GOD SAID:

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, SO ARE MY WAYS EXALTED ABOVE YOUR WAYS, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    THEREFORE:

    ALL HUMANS IN ORDER TO BE BORN, A SPERM, AND AN OVUM MUST BE FUSED! SO THERE HAS TO BE AN ACT WHICH NEVER HAD BEEN BEFORE , BETWEEN TWO DIFFERENT ELEMENTS! THEREFORE A COMPLETE BEGINNING!

    [B] THE WORD BECAME FLESH WITHOUT ANY SPERM AT ALL!

    THE WORD BECAME FLESH WITHOUT ANY FUSION OF TWO DIFFERENT ELEMENTS AT ALL!

    THE WORD BECAME FLESH FROM ONE ELEMENT, ONE SPIRIT! ONE ETERNAL SPIRIT! GOD'S

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371708
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    They did that because the word wisdom is a feminine noun in Hebrew.  The word word is masculine in both Hebrew and Koine Greek.

    Kerwin,

    BUT THAT IS NOT THE REAL TRUTH!

    WHAT IF I TELL YOU THAT THE WORD THE TRIUNE MEDIATOR CREATOR GOD WAS BOTH MASCULINE AND  FEMININE!

    THEREFORE THE WORD MADE FLESH WAS ALSO MALE AND FEMALE

    AS ALSO WAS MARY SINCE THE WORD MADE FLESH WAS BORN THROUGH HER!

    NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER EXCEPT THE SON, AND NO ONE KNOWS THE SON EXCEPT THE FATHER and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. … IN THIS CASE ME

    TO CLARIFY:

    THE FATHER      LOVE

    AND

    THE SON          WISDOM   TOGETHER WITH

    THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    IN THE FORM OF WATER, SPIRIT AND BLOOD, MATTER!

    WHEN THE WORD LEFT THE FATHER FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD!

    1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth.

    SINCE WISDOM THE FEMININE ASPECT OF GOD WAS WITH THE WORD BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD! IN FACT IT WAS THE VERY FIRST SPIRIT ATTRIBUTE WHICH THE DEITY, THROUGH THE FATHER WHO IS LOVE ITSELF ESTABLISHED/CREATED AS A SPIRIT!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371712
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2014,13:18)
    Mike,

    So are you claiming a concrete thing can not become an aspect of an abstract thing.

    That claim lacks support.


    Okay Kerwin,

    But it's not for me to prove a negative. You'll have to prove the positive.

    Can you find an example of an abstract quality or attribute, like “love”, that has a concrete thing as IT'S own attribute?

    For example, can “love” have an elephant as one of it's attributes?

    Can a command from God have a rhinoceros as one of it's attributes?

    As far as I know, concrete things can have abstract things as attributes – but not the other way around.

    #371714
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 23 2014,20:24)
    We know that “the Word” is the subject because it has the definite article, and we translate it accordingly: “and the Word was God.” Two questions, both of theological import, should come to mind: (1) why was θεός thrown forward? and (2) why does it lack the article?

    In brief, its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality: “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father). That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has; lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not the Father. John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is, in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism.

    To state this another way, look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:

    καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν ὁ θεός
    “and the Word was the God”
    (i.e., the Father; Sabellianism)

    καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν θεός
    “and the Word was a god” (Arianism)

    καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
    “and the Word was God” (Orthodoxy).

    Jesus Christ is God and has all the attributes that the Father has.

    BY DANIEL B WALLACE


    jammin,

    That is a brilliant piece of work from Mr. Wallace!  Thank you for posting it.

    He does a great job of putting the technical information into laymen's terms that anyone can understand.  And he is 100% correct on everything……… except for his conclusion.

    Take a look:

    “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force.

    Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

    That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has; lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not the Father.

    As Mr. Wallace points out, the lack of the definite article in part c should logically keep all of us from identifying the Word with “the person of God”.  

    And notice that Mr. Wallace doesn't claim that “God” is made up of “persons” (plural), but instead recognizes that “God” is A person (singular).  He even goes as far as to tell us that this ONE “person of God” is none other than “the Father”.

    And he is absolutely correct that John INTENTIONALLY included the definite article in part b, but left it out in part c.  John INTENTIONALLY wrote that the Word was WITH THE God; and made sure that he DIDN'T write that the Word WAS THE God.

    John did that on purpose, jammin – just like Mr. Wallace so brilliantly points out.

    But did you notice what Mr. Wallace did during the explanation part of his writing?  

    First, he explained that John went out of his way to make sure that no one thought the Word was actually “the person of God”.  But then, Mr. Wallace stopped using the word “God” – and switched to “the Father”.  

    Why would Mr. Wallace do such a thing, jammin?  And what would his explanation have looked like if he continued to use the word “God”, instead of switching to “the Father”?

    “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force.

    Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God”.

    That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that God has; lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not God.

    And with those two minor adjustments I made to Mr. Wallace's writing, we are pretty dang close to exactly what John was trying to tell us in the first place.  So, by putting “God” back into Mr. Wallace's writing, this is what we have learned:

    1.  What God was, the Word also was.  And what is God?  A very powerful spirit being, right?  Jesus was also that.

    2.  Don't confuse “the Word” with “God Himself” (“the person of God” – as Mr. Wallace puts it).

    3.  Jesus had the same divine attributes that his own Father and God had – the same divine nature that we also can partake in some day. (2 Peter 1:4)

    4.  The lack of definite article in part c makes it clear that Jesus wasn't actually God Himself.

    So you can see how brilliantly Mr. Wallace laid all these things out for us.   And you can hopefully also see the little “trick” he tried to play on us.

    Even if we left it as Mr. Wallace originally wrote it, there is nothing in what he wrote that would lead a sensible person to the conclusion that Jesus was a DIFFERENT “person of God”.  In fact, that conclusion contradicts his claim that Jesus isn't “THE person of God”.

    I hope you can see these things, and thanks again for posting that writing. Good stuff.

    #371715
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    So jammin,

    Using that information from Mr. Wallace, we can finally answer the question of this thread:

    The Word is Jesus Christ, a powerful spirit being (god) just like his own God, who was given divine nature just like many of us will someday be given, and who is NOT “the person of God Himself”.

    NOW we can finally close the thread. :)

    #371716
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Feb. 24 2014,00:37)
    Mike,

    THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A

    WHAT GOD EMANATES!

    AND WHAT GOD CREATS!


    Stop right there, Charles. Show me what you claimed in scripture, and THEN maybe I'll read the rest of your post.

    #371740
    jammin
    Participant

    you had a wrong interpretation mike.

    ill post again what wallace said

    In brief, its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality: “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father). That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has; lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not the Father.

    and
    Jesus Christ is God and has all the attributes that the Father has.

    —-
    mike,

    wallace told that the son is not the father but they have same NATURE (God)

    Christ is God and not god. i did not see that wallace posted 2peter 1.4. you have a wrong interpretation about that verse./

    your twist is not effective here

    #371742
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jammin……….Your half way right, Jesus said clearly that the FATHER was “IN” Him he never said He was the Father Or for that matter He never said he was a God either, Jesus said he was going to “HIS” GOD and Identified it as OUR GOD ALSO, He was Going TO “HIS” FATHER and OUR FATHER ALSO. So by Jesus' own Mouth He Identifies himself with Us and Not as Being a GOD. You do not understand that the fullness of GOD DWELT “IN” HIM That is a completely different thing then saying He IS A GOD HIMSELF.

    Simply put you are an “INDOCTRINATED TRINATARIAN and a INDOCTRINATED PREEXISTENCE'S. None of those are any part of God now Jesus the Christ, the anointed “MAN” of GOD> Jesus said clearly “THOU” art the “ONLY” TRUE GOD Now does the word “THOU, mean someone else then the person saying it , and does ONLY not mean there are “NO” Others. Why can't you trinitarians and preexistence's put simply and clear scriptures together, is it because God has sent to you a deluding Spirit “Intellect” and you can't seem to come to a true understanding?, well you not alone here that is for sure. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene

    #371743
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 25 2014,14:05)
    you had a wrong interpretation mike.

    ill post again what wallace said

    …… Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God”………..


    Just focus on that one part I quoted above, jammin.  Mr. Wallace clearly tells you that the person of the Word is NOT the person of God.  He says that John's lack of a definite article in part c KEEPS US FROM IDENTIFYING THE WORD AS “GOD”.

    He is correct.  The Word OF God cannot possibly BE “God”. This is simple common sense.

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 25 2014,14:05)
    Jesus Christ is God and has all the attributes that the Father has.
    —-
    mike,

    wallace told that the son is not the father but they have same NATURE (God)


    Like I said yesterday, Mr. Wallace's conclusion doesn't even match his own teaching.  First he tells us that the Word is NOT “the person of God”…….. and then he turns right around and concludes that the Word IS “the person of God”.  ???

    How he says one thing, and then concludes the opposite thing is a mystery to me.

    His own words are fighting each other.  Can't you see that?

    Anyway, I've saved that writing to my Word program, for later reference.  Thanks again for posting it.

    #371758
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Feb. 26 2014,07:45][/quote]

    Quote
    You do not understand that the fullness of GOD DWELT “IN” HIM That is a completely different thing then saying He IS A GOD HIMSELF.  

    Gene,

    WITH YOUR ARGUMENT YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOUR SOUL IS NOT YOU since it abides in you!

    but the truth is that when YOU die YOU WILL FACE THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST. TO BE JUDGED!

    NOW HOW COME YOU WOULD BE  IN THE GRAVE, AND ALSO IN FRONT OF JESUS?

    HOW COME YOU WOULD BE WHEREVER YOU DESERVE TO BE, AND ALSO DUST?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371759
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Feb. 18 2014,08:51][/quote]

    Quote
    God brought this “Word” forth, and caused it to have an existence at some point – which would mean that “the Word” had a BEGINNING to its existence.

    MIke,

    PROVE THAT BROUGHT FORTH MEANS THAT IT NEVER HAD AN EXISTENCE, BEFORE IT WAS BROUGHT FORTH!

    NOW REFLECT:

    WE BRING FORTH WORDS THROUGH OUR MOUTH!  DOES THAT MEAN THAT THE ACTUAL WORDS WHICH DEFINITELY MEANT A KIND OF COMMITMENT, WHICH EVENTUALLY WE BROUGHT FORTH WERE NOT WITHIN OUR MIND?

    SINCE WE PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED OURSELVES WITHIN OUR CONCEPT AND DECIDED in a mode to say THAT

    NEXT YEAR  WE WOULD GO FOR A HOLIDAY?

    WE ALSO HAVE ANOTHER KIND OF MOUTH WHICH IS ALWAYS HIDDEN!

    WE ALSO BRING FORTH HORRIBLE STINKY RESPECTIVE WORDS !

    DOES THAT MEAN THAT THOSE HORRIBLE STINKY RESPECTIVE WORDS WERE NOT WITHIN US?

    SO HOW ON EARTH YOU ARE SO CORRUPTED TO SAY  THAT THE WORD OF GOD HAD A BEGINNING ONLY WHEN IT CAME FORTH! FROM GOD'S MOST HOLY, AND POWERFUL MOUTH?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371763
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Feb. 26 2014,17:32)
    [quote=mikeboll64,Feb. 18 2014,08:51][/quote]

    Quote
    God brought this “Word” forth, and caused it to have an existence at some point – which would mean that “the Word” had a BEGINNING to its existence.

    MIke,

    PROVE THAT BROUGHT FORTH MEANS THAT IT NEVER HAD AN EXISTENCE, BEFORE IT WAS BROUGHT FORTH!

    NOW REFLECT:

    WE BRING FORTH WORDS THROUGH OUR MOUTH!  DOES THAT MEAN THAT THE ACTUAL WORDS WHICH DEFINITELY MEANT A KIND OF COMMITMENT, WHICH EVENTUALLY WE BROUGHT FORTH WERE NOT WITHIN OUR MIND?

    SINCE WE PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED OURSELVES WITHIN OUR CONCEPT AND DECIDED in a mode to say THAT

    NEXT YEAR  WE WOULD GO FOR A HOLIDAY?

    WE ALSO HAVE ANOTHER KIND OF MOUTH WHICH IS ALWAYS HIDDEN!

    WE ALSO BRING FORTH HORRIBLE STINKY RESPECTIVE WORDS !

    DOES THAT MEAN THAT THOSE HORRIBLE STINKY RESPECTIVE WORDS WERE NOT WITHIN US?

    SO HOW ON EARTH YOU ARE SO CORRUPTED TO SAY  THAT THE WORD OF GOD HAD A BEGINNING ONLY WHEN IT CAME FORTH! FROM GOD'S MOST HOLY, AND POWERFUL MOUTH?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    You hit the nail on the head.

    What some can not understand is that God could give His own Word: a form:a living Word.

    In the resurrection of the saints; we also will be given a form
    *based* on the Word in us.(the flesh of Christ).(the bread of life). Disbelievers with no Word in them: there also will be no resurrection for them. No form given.

    wakeup.

    #371766
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2014,08:29)

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 25 2014,14:05)
    you had a wrong interpretation mike.

    ill post again what wallace said

    …… Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God”………..


    Just focus on that one part I quoted above, jammin.  Mr. Wallace clearly tells you that the person of the Word is NOT the person of God.  He says that John's lack of a definite article in part c KEEPS US FROM IDENTIFYING THE WORD AS “GOD”.

    He is correct.  The Word OF God cannot possibly BE “God”.  This is simple common sense.

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 25 2014,14:05)
    Jesus Christ is God and has all the attributes that the Father has.
    —-
    mike,

    wallace told that the son is not the father but they have same NATURE (God)


    Like I said yesterday, Mr. Wallace's conclusion doesn't even match his own teaching.  First he tells us that the Word is NOT “the person of God”…….. and then he turns right around and concludes that the Word IS “the person of God”.  ???

    How he says one thing, and then concludes the opposite thing is a mystery to me.

    His own words are fighting each other.  Can't you see that?

    Anyway, I've saved that writing to my Word program, for later reference.  Thanks again for posting it.


    yes he is not GOD the father. that is what wallace trying to portrait.

    the son is not the father BUT THEY HAVE THE SAME NATURE, Nature of God.

    and also, he did not say about 2pet 1.4,. it is a differnt story mike. dont ever use that verse for what wallace said about john 1.1

    it is very clear that you are twisting wallace's words.

    wallace said
    Jesus Christ is God and has all the attributes that the Father has.


    do you understand that?? he did not say god but God.

    but you mike, you always say Christ is god and not God.

    take a look what wallace said on the latter part of his letter. he said Christ is God!

    he has all the attributes that the father has.

    #371767
    jammin
    Participant

    gene,

    Christ is not the father but he has all the attributes that the father has. he is God (son)

    the bible said we have God the father and God the only son.

    that is why in john 1.1 john said that the Word was God. therefore Christ is God, just like wallace said. BUT HE IS NOT THE FATHER, HE is the Son (God the only Son).

    #371768
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jammin……….My argument doe not say my Soul is not me, it is saying my Body can be a temple of the living God, or haven't you read, “KNOW YOU NOT YOUR “BODIES” ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD. How is my body a “TEMPLE” of the Living GOD, if GOD is not in it also with me? Haven't you read, where God spoke through Jesus and said, “DESTROY this TEMPLE and in three Days I (GOD) shall raise it Up. That was not Jesus speaking those words, it was God the Father speaking through him.

    Being a son of God does not make you a GOD, Humans are son of GOD also, Or haven't you read ADAM is also Called a SON of GOD in Luke 3:38. So does that make him a GOD also because he is a Son of GOD. Show me, show me “ONE” scripture where Jesus ever said he was a GOD of any kind. I have never seen one, no not even one.  

    Your whole thing about a Soul is not even related to what I was talking about, Because a “LIVING SOUL, is a BODY, with a SPIRIT in it, even animals are Living souls. Scripture say when a man dies his Spirit goes back to God who gave it, But the body goes to the grave and that man  no Longer Exists the dead “KNOW” Nothing for in the day they die their “THOUGHTS” PARISH>  There is no life after death until the resurrection of our Body and Spirit added back into it, Just like it was for Jesus. Yes jammin, Jesus said clearly he was “DEAD” and dead does not mean your still alive, God alone had to raise him up from the dead with a LIVING BODY and add His SPIRIT back into it or he still would be dead.

    Jammin, your problem is you do not understand that Sprits are what are “IN” Bodies , and GOD is a SPIRIT and can DWELL in any Body he chooses to. Or haven't you read, If the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from the dead “DWELL” IN YOU, He or it, shall also “QUICKEN” your “MORTAL” (dead) BODY.  

    You people preach a Doctrine of , SEPARATION   Making Jesus something other then a HUMAN BEING, and MOVING him away from His brothers and sisters, it is a work of the DEVIL himself. Satan wants human beings not to see Jesus as one of them, why so he could plant in the mind of man, the idea , that they could never attain unto the “FULL” measure and Stature of Christ Jesus , Satan want to make Jesus a GOD, and the Object of Worship, instead of God the Father, who is the ONLY TRUE GOD.  

    Deceived Trinitarians and Preexistence's are doing his work of   “SEPARATION”, causing humans to commit “IDOLATRY”   If you could understand, Paul explained that in 2 Ths 2, the, “man of sin”, mention there, is the “LIE” a False “IMAGE” of JESUS, being presented as a GOD, He is the ONLY ONE SITING in the TEMPLE of GOD being Shown, by SATAN and His deceived Children, as a GOD. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene

    #371773
    jammin
    Participant

    how believers became sons of GOD?

    John 1:12
    New International Version (NIV)

    12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    what about Christ?

    no version that says Christ became son of God because he has given the right to become a son of God.

    the bible tells us that he is THE ONLY SON OF GOD. do you understand the word ONLY?
    or maybe you should go back to school…

    you can not read that Jesus said he is God but you CAN READ THAT THE APOSTLES SAID HE IS GOD.

    Philippians 2:6
    New International Version (NIV)

    6 Who, being in very nature God,

    Philippians 2:6
    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,

    thomas said
    john 20.28
    THE VOICE

    28 You are the one True God and Lord of my life.

    john said

    John 1:1
    Living Bible (TLB)

    1 1-2 Before anything else existed,[a] there was Christ,* with God. He has always been alive and is himself God.

    #371774
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
     Haven't you read, where God spoke through Jesus and said, “DESTROY this TEMPLE and in three Days I (GOD) shall raise it Up. That was not Jesus speaking those words, it was God the Father speaking through him.      

    Gene,

    Read hereunder and tell me who said:

    John 2:16……………. Take these things hence, and make not THE HOUSE OF MY FATHER a house of traffic.

    17 And his disciples remembered, that it was written: The zeal OF YOUR HOUSE hath eaten me up.

    19Jesus answered, and said to them: Destroy this temple, and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP.

    21 But HE SPOKE  OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY.

    READ THEM AGAIN:

    16:  THE HOUSE OF MY FATHER!

    17: YOUR HOUSE!

    19: I WILL RAISE IT UP!

    21:  HE SPOKE OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY!

    WHAT CONVINCED YOU THAT ONLY VERSE 19 WAS SPOKEN BY THE FATHER?

    Quote
    God the Father, who is the ONLY TRUE GOD.  

    YOU ALSO SAID:

    show me “ONE” scripture where Jesus ever said he was a GOD of any kind.

    NOW YOU:

    GIVE ME ONE PROOF FROM THE OT. THAT GOD THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371801
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Feb. 26 2014,00:32)
    MIke,

    PROVE THAT BROUGHT FORTH MEANS THAT IT NEVER HAD AN EXISTENCE, BEFORE IT WAS BROUGHT FORTH!


    Charles,

    Was Jehovah God Almighty ever “brought forth”? YES or NO?

Viewing 20 posts - 15,581 through 15,600 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account