John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,541 through 15,560 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #371598
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2014,11:18)

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 20 2014,10:43)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 21 2014,01:58)
    To All…….> The LORD our GOD and His words are ONE AND THE SAME, just as your words and you are, one and the same being. Not an OUNCE of Difference as concerning words, only you and I simple do not have HIS POWER, to bring about our words, like, God the Father does. Neither did or does Jesus. Jesus never did ONE MIRACLE “HIMSELF” it was GOD the FATHER who us “IN” him doing the WORKS. Just as He said.  THE SON OF MAN CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF,THE FATHER  WHO IS IN HIM, “HE” DOES THE 'WORKS” Jesus took no Glory for what the Father was doing through Him. IMO

    peace and love to you all………………………………………gene


    my word can not be addressed as HE.

    do you understand that?

    unless you do not know basic english


    And if I say the word “elephant”, I don't BECOME an elephant, Gene.

    My words are not “ME”.  They are my words.


    MIke………the word elephant, is not describing what a “Word” “IS”, it is describing an animal,  Word are “INTELLIGENT UTTERANCES” they are not animals, they come forth from Spirits “IN” a PERSON> When you speak a WORD it is from the SPIRITS working in you and that is you, words are your intelligent utterances, and illustrates who and what you are, to everyone who hears them.

    It's very hard for me to understand, how you people can be so ignorant, as not to even understand this. No wonder you can't understand the simple truth of scriptures you cant even understand what a word IS. Our minds through perceptions put together Words and we express them, Common sense should tell you this. Mike how can anyone take what you say seriously if you can't even understand this? IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

    #371600
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 21 2014,06:01)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 20 2014,21:32)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 20 2014,11:49)
    K

    What about verse 36, and 37 ???


    T,

    Quote
    Ps 89:36 that his line will continue forever
    and his throne endure before me like the sun;
    Ps 89:37 it will be established forever like the moon,
    the faithful witness in the sky.”

    David's line is still around and unless you consider Jesus' death as disqualifying him from fulfilling that Scripture, then he will always be.

    Jesus' either sits or will sit on David's throne.  

    I do not know why the moon is said to be established forever or why it is said to be a faithful witness.


    K

    YES ,I believe that it is talking about Christ the king of the Jews that will sit on the throne of David forever ,


    T,

    So we are agreed on that point. The Psalmist was simply singing of the greatness of God for the promise he made to David while subtly reminding the king currently sitting on David's throne to do right in the name of the Lord.

    #371601
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 21 2014,19:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2014,10:50)

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 20 2014,22:43)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 21 2014,01:58)
    To All…….> The LORD our GOD and His words are ONE AND THE SAME, just as your words and you are, one and the same being. Not an OUNCE of Difference as concerning words, only you and I simple do not have HIS POWER, to bring about our words, like, God the Father does. Neither did or does Jesus. Jesus never did ONE MIRACLE “HIMSELF” it was GOD the FATHER who us “IN” him doing the WORKS. Just as He said.  THE SON OF MAN CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF,THE FATHER  WHO IS IN HIM, “HE” DOES THE 'WORKS” Jesus took no Glory for what the Father was doing through Him. IMO

    peace and love to you all………………………………………gene


    my word can not be addressed as HE.

    do you understand that?

    unless you do not know basic english


    Jammin,

    In Koine Greek it is as word is masculine.

    John 1:3-5
    1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

    3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.

    4 In it was life, and that life was the light of men.

    5 And that light shineth in the wilderness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.


    you dont know greek kerwin. your argument here proves that you do not have enough knowledge about the greek language.


    Jammin,

    The writers of the Geneva bible used “it” instead of “he”.

    #371602
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2014,16:50)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2014,06:14)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2014,23:40)
    Mike,

    Wisdom was brought forth in the same way as the word even though God has always possessed it.


    Kerwin,

    Do you think literal wisdom is a living breathing entity, separate from God?

    If not, then it is not the same thing.


    Mike,

    I believe God's Wisdom took on the attribute of being a person at the same time God's Word as you cannot have one without the other.

    I have more to say but I am not at my best right now.


    Mike,

    Jesus personalizes wisdom as well as the word. I believe that is the same as saying the aspect of being a person is added to the word but all Scripture actually says is that the word was given the aspect of flesh.

    #371605
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Feb. 18 2014,09:06][/quote]

    Quote
    …….SATAN HAD THE RIGHT TO POSSESS ALL SOULS FROM BIRTH WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE SELECT DUE TO ADAM'S SIN………
    I have never heard such a thing, nor can I read anything about it in scripture
    So what's the point?  It's like we are speaking different languages.

    Mike,

    There are events, statements, and words in the bible that are not visible for all who read the bible, or they are visible in a different understanding

    ! SO THE FACT THAT YOU NEVER READ AND HEARD OF THEM IT DOESN’T MEAN THAT THEY ARE NOT IN A WAY WRITTEN, OR THE EVENTS NEVER OCCURRED!

    Heaven net is a proof of what I just stated!

    We are all Christians, BUT WE SEE THINGS DIFFERENT ALTHOUGH WE READ THE SAME GOSPEL! THE SAME WORDS!

    ALTHOUGH IN ALMOST ALL CASES IT IS NOT THE SAME BIBLE! SIMPLY DUE TO THE SAME COMMON REASON THAT THEIR AUTHORS SEE DIFFERENT THE MOST VITAL PARTS OF THE BIBLE

    SO YOUR POINT IS USELESS!

    NOW READ THESE PIECES OF SCRIPTURE, AND DEFINE THEM FOR ME, AND CONFIRM YOUR DEFINITE CONCLUSIONS WHETHER    FROM PENTECOST, FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME, THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER IN THE GLORY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, UNOFFICIALLY, JUSTIFIED ONCE AND FOR ALL, ON THE CROSS  IS WITHIN ALL SOULS FROM BIRTH!

    John12:31 Now is the judgment of the world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.

    CONCENTRATE UPON:

    JUDGEMENT OF THE WORLD!

    THE PRINCE OF THE WORLD  WOULD BE CAST OUT!

    I WILL DRAW ALL THINGS TO MYSELF!

    John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me. 15 As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep.

    MY SHEEP!

    I WONDER WHO ARE JESUS CHRIST’S SHEEP?

    16And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

    ALSO I WONDER WHO ARE THESE OTHER SHEEP, WHO ALSO BELONG  TO JESUS CHRIST, BUT NOT OF THE SAME FOLD

    10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep

    THOSE WHO ARE NOT OF JESUS CHRIST’S SHEEP WE KNOW, OBVIOUS SATAN’S DIRECT HUMAN BEINGS UP TO JESUS’ TIME, AND TILL ALL RACES EVENTUALLY DIED, AND ARE NOT IN THIS WORLD ANYMORE, WHICH IS DEFINTELY THIS TIME

    . 27My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me.

    I WONDER ALSO WHEN DO THESE SHEEP HEAR JESUS CHRIST’S VOICE, WHEN THEY ARE ALREADY HIS? WHICH DOESN’T MAKE SENSE SINCE THEY ARE HIS!

    OR WHEN THEY ARE NOT YET HIS IN ORDER TO HEAR HIM AND BECOME HIS

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371606
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Feb. 21 2014,01:58][/quote]

    Quote
    Jesus took no Glory for what the Father was doing through Him. IMO

    Gene,

    EXPLAIN:

    John17:1 THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come, GLORIFY YOUR SON, that thy Son may glorify thee.

    4I have glorified thee on the earth;

    I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    5 AND NOW GLORIFY YOU ME, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.

    10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;AND I AM GLORIFIED IN THEM.

    THERE ARE MORE, BUT THESE WOULD CONVINCE YOU THAT

    JESUS CHRIST WAS,  IS, AND REMAIN  GLORIFIED IN THE SAME GLORY OF THE FATHER FOR ETERNITY

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371609
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Feb. 18 2014,09:06][/quote]

    Quote
    …….SATAN HAD THE RIGHT TO POSSESS ALL SOULS FROM BIRTH WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE SELECT DUE TO ADAM'S SIN………
    I have never heard such a thing, nor can I read anything about it in scripture
    So what's the point?  It's like we are speaking different languages.

    Mike,

    WITH REGARDS TO THE ABOVE, READ THESE VERSES!

    34 Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin.

    35Now the SERVANT ABIDETH NOT IN THE HOUSE FOREVER, BUT THE SON ABIDETH FOREVER,

    36IF THEREFORE THE SON SHALL MAKE YOU FREE, YOU SHALL BE FREE INDEED!

    NOW CAN YOU READ AND SEE WHAT THE WORDS:
    SERVANT, and HOUSE REPRESENT?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371611
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Feb. 16 2014,20:06][/quote]

    Quote
    THE HS IS NOT FREE FOR ALL.
    Meaning; not all are baptised with the HS,since birth.
    The HS is only given to them that are seeking God with their
    heart. HS means HOLY. HE CAN NOT RESIDE IN TEMPLES
    OF DEMONS.

    WAKEUP,

    YOU RUSH TO CONCLUSION!

    WHO SAID THAT ALL ARE BAPTISED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT SINCE BIRTH?

    I SAID THE HOLY SPIRIT UNOFFICIALLY IS WITHIN ALL SOULS THROUGH THE WORD SO NOT YET BAPTISED!

    BUT FROM THAT VERY MOMENT,  THE HOLY SPIRIT, UNOFFICIALLY IS WORKING HIDDEN IN THE WORD

    SO SINCE THE WORD IS WITHIN ALL CREATURES NO MATTER WHAT, SIMPLY BECAUSE ALL WAS CREATED BY HIM, AND IN HIM!

    THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE TRUTH, THROUGH THAT PARTICULAR JUSTICE!

    IS DOING THE OPPOSITE WORK WHICH SATAN UNJUSTIFIED THROUGH LIES, DID BEFORE REDEMPTION WHEN HE WAS HIDDEN AND WAS WORKING IN ALL SOULS MAKING THEIR HEART OF STONES!

    SO THE HOLY SPIRIT TOPPLED SATAN'S EVIL SPIRIT WORK, AND NOW HE IS  DOING THE OPPOSITE  WORK  WITHIN ALL SOULS, WHICH IS HOLY! TILL THE SOULS HEAR HIS VOICE AND BE CONVERTED!

    SINCE BEFORE THEY COULDN'T DUE TO THE FACT THAT SATAN  UNJUSTLY THROUGH HIS LIES  OCCUPIED ALL SOULS THROUGH ADAM SIN!

    SO WHEN THEY HEAR THE HOLY SPIRIT VOICE, THEN THEY WILL BE OFFICIALLY BAPTISED BY HOLY SPIRIT! THEY WOULD OFFICIALLY DECLARE HIM THROUGH THEIR DEEDS!

    THE HOLY SPIRIT BLOWS WHERE HE WILLS, HE IS IN COMMAND, AND HE HIMSELF CHOOSES WHOM HE WANTS, [B] EVEN IF THAT PARTICULAR PERSON IS MOST EVIL

    LIKE PAUL WAS!

    SO IT IS THROUGH THE WORD WHOM THE FATHER SEALED IN ALL CREATION,THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS,

    THE WORD  AS I EXPLAINED IS:

    THE SON'S SPIRIT,

    WHO LEFT THE FATHER, WITH THE FULL POWER OF THE TRIUNE GOD, WITHIN!

    THEREFORE THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN, PLUS THE FATHER'S FROM HEAVEN!

    THE LAMB OF GOD WHO WAS SLAIN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD REV 13:8

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371612
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 21 2014,08:55)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2014,11:18)

    My words are not “ME”.  They are my words.


    MIke………the word elephant, is not describing what a  “Word” “IS”, it is describing an animal,  Word are “INTELLIGENT UTTERANCES” they are not animals, they come forth from Spirits “IN” a PERSON> When you speak a WORD it is from the SPIRITS working in you and that is you, words are your intelligent utterances, and illustrates who and what you are, to everyone who hears them.

    It's very hard for me to understand, how you people can be so ignorant, as not to even understand this. No wonder you can't understand the simple truth of scriptures you cant even understand what a word IS. Our minds through perceptions put together Words and we express them, Common sense should tell you this. Mike how can anyone take what you say seriously if you can't even understand this? IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene


    Gene,

    You spouted nonsensical gibberish, and then accused ME of being the idiot for not understanding your nonsensical gibberish.

    This is what your post looks like to me:

    Black five in sky wave has when jump little frog six mouse fantastic wish God.

    Mike, how can anyone take you seriously when you can't understand that crap I just wrote?  :D

    Listen carefully Gene,

    When the scripture says “the word of God” came to Elijah, or whoever, do you understand it to mean that the Almighty being of God Himself came personally to Elijah?

    When God gave us the 10 commandments (literally called “the ten words“), are you saying that all those commandments are God Himself, and we should therefore WORSHIP all 10 of the commandments?

    For example, God said, “You shall not commit murder”.

    Is the word “YOU” God Himself?

    Is the word “SHALL” God Himself?

    Is the word “NOT” God Himself?

    Is the word “COMMIT” God Himself?

    Is the word “MURDER” God Himself?

    Shall we worship the word “YOU”, because God once said that word, which makes that word the very God who said it?  ???

    Come on, Gene.  You are smarter than this.

    The reason they are called the words OF God is because they are things OF God, and not God Himself.

    The servant OF God is not God Himself.  The Messiah OF God is not God Himself.  The wrath OF God is not God Himself.

    In fact, NOTHING that can be said to be OF someone can actually BE the person it is OF.

    Didn't you learn this in first grade?  ???

    It truly AMAZES me to see all the different ASININE theories people have come up with because of that flawed “and the Word was God” translation of John 1:1.

    We've got jammin thinking Jesus IS the God he was WITH.

    We've got Gene spouting nonsense about a person's words actually being the person whose words they are.

    We've got Wakeup thinking that something that used to BE God Almighty Himself, stopped being God and became a being other than God.

    We've got Kerwin thinking that an actual utterance from God's mouth became a living entity, who later “took on the attributes” of a human being.

    All of this stuff is pure NONSENSE guys.

    Jesus is not God Himself, but the Son OF God.  And God has spoken millions of words since creation – why did only that first “utterance” become a living entity?  And how did that utterance end up becoming God's Son?  Do literal words become people's offspring?   ???

    So listen up, all of you:

    Jesus is metaphorically called “The Word of God” because he is God's main spokesman.  The King of Abyssinia also had a spokesman who was metaphorically called “The Word of the King”.  It is not so hard to grasp.

    Neither of these people were a LITERAL WORD spoken from the mouth of God or the King of Abyssinia.  It is a METAPHORICAL TITLE!

    Now Jesus, who had the title “The Word of God”, dwelled with much glory alongside his God and Creator before the world began.  He was existing in the form of God (which means “as a powerful spirit being like his God”) before he was made into the likeness of a human being.  And as a “powerful spirit being”, he is rightly called “a god” in John 1:1, because in that culture, powerful spirit beings were often called gods.  This fact is all throughout the scriptures, guys.  So John 1:1 really speaks about “a god” who was with “THE God, Jehovah”.

    After Jesus BECAME FLESH (a phrase that could only be used of someone who wasn't flesh becoming flesh), he spent his years on earth glorifying, not HIMSELF, but his God who SENT him to the earth for a specific purpose.

    Then this wonderful SERVANT of our God was crucified.  But his and our God raised him from the dead, and brought him BACK to heaven (“What if you see me ascend to WHERE I WAS BEFORE?”).

    He now sits at the right hand of his and our God with even more glory than the glory he left when he became flesh.

    This is what the scriptures teach.  They teach this over and over and over, through many different writings of many different disciples.

    When will you guys figure this easy teaching out?  When will you believe?

    #371615
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Jesus personalizes wisdom as well as the word.  

    Kerwin,

    I agree with that 100 %!

    JESUS PERSONALIZES WISDOM, AND THROUGH THAT WE COULD ALSO CONCLUDE THAT

    JESUS PERSONALIZED ALSO FEMINISM SINCE SCRIPTURES IN SOLOMON, PROVERBS, AND JOB PROCLAIMED WISDOM AS FEMININE!

    ALSO CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT SOLOMON WAS GIVEN THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM, SYMBOLICALLY THE FEMININE ASPECT OF GOD,

    WHO WAS THE SON OF DAVID,LIKE JESUS WAS,

    AND ALSO SIGNIFICANTLY SOLOMON ENDED WITH 700 WIVES, AND 300 CONCUBINES,

    ALSO  SIGNIFICANTLY ARE THE 7, AND 3 WHICH BOTH ARE NUMBERS ATTRIBUTED TO GOD!

    COMPLETION AND PERFECTION RESPECTIVELY!

    THE SEVEN SPIRIT OF GOD, and

    THE TRIUNE GOD WITHIN THE WORD

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371616
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 20 2014,20:28)
    Mike B.

    Angels are created creatures.
    The Word of God is not created.


    Wakeup,

    If “The Word of God” DIDN'T used to be an individual living breathing being, but then BECAME an individual living breathing being, that individual living breathing being HAD A BEGINNING.

    And things that have existed from eternity do NOT have a BEGINNING.

    So your two choices are:

    1.  There has ALWAYS been both God AND this other living breathing being.

    2.  There used to be ONLY God, and then this other living breathing being CAME INTO EXISTENCE.

    And since #2 is the ONLY logical choice, and this other living breathing being CAME INTO EXISTENCE from the power of God, then God CREATED that other living breathing being.  (Also, Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14 confirm that this other living breathing being was the first CREATION God ever made.)

    There is no scripture that says “The Word” is from everlasting.  And there is no scripture that identifies “The Word OF God” with “The Everlasting Father”.

    These are simply misunderstandings you have come to believe as truth.

    As for the “angel” thing, let me try to educate you once again:

    Are you aware that both the Hebrew and Greek words translated as “angel” in English Bibles really just mean “messenger”?  Well, now you ARE aware.

    And when the English translator believes that the “messenger” in question is a SPIRIT messenger, he uses the ENGLISH (not Hebrew or Greek) word “angel”.

    So, read Revelation 1:1 to see that Jesus was delivering a MESSAGE from his God Jehovah.  That makes him one of God's MESSENGERS – even as he was during his days on earth.  But by the time of John's revelation, Jesus was a SPIRIT being again, which makes him a SPIRIT messenger of his God.

    And a SPIRIT messenger, according to the English translators, is called “an angel”.

    So there you have it.  Jesus is, by very definition, an ANGEL of his and our God, Jehovah.

    #371617
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2014,04:50)
    Mike,

    I believe God's Wisdom took on the attribute of being a person at the same time God's Word as you cannot have one without the other.


    You have yet to explain what “taking on the attribute of being a person” entails.

    Please explain what exactly that means before continuing to use that wording.

    #371618
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 21 2014,08:36)
    Jammin…….Kerwin is right, the word in Greek used there is ” ek-i'-mos” it's the same word for “IT” as well as He.


    Gene,

    The pronouns are written in the masculine form in the Greek language. That means “HE” instead of “IT”. (“IT” would have been written in the neuter form.)

    So you guys can argue that “IT” is a possible meaning, since the word “logos” is a masculine word in the Greek language, but then you'd be going against the context of the entire chapter of John 1, which eventually tells us who this “HE” is.

    Unless of course, you believe “Jesus” is an “IT”.

    #371619
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike………So your Words are not a expression of yourself, O really?,  they  do not come from YOU, they are Not an expression of Your mind coming FROM YOU . Right? So Mike tell us whose words are you speaking then, if not your own, Now talk about stupid, ignorant, Gibberish,

    Any on with half a brain can see a Persons words “ARE” a Representative of HIS MIND, unless he is quoting someone else, then it's that persons words he is quoting, not his words.

    You feed us all this crap about the word elephant not “meaning” an elephant. You try so desperately to make a word totally separate from it source. Twisting up what i have said about the ten commandments of God,  not being GOD own Expression from his MIND is what is garbage IMO.

    Then you try to tell us God's word Identify's another Person. NO MIKE GOD'S WORDS ARE NOT”another PERSON, THEY ARE EXPRESSION OF A PERSON “MIND” and in this case it is GOD's MIND.. Basic common sense 101!

     God and his Word which come from his mind, are one and the same thing, Just as you and your words are one and the same thing , why because you word express who “YOU Mentally “ARE”. So does God our FATHER express who He is by “HIS” WORDS, and those words are not Jesus, or Jesus' words, they are GOD the FATHERS WORDS> IMO

    The Basic meaning for a Word is , INTELLIGENT UTTERANCE and the UTTERANCE if coming from you IS YOU> IT IS NOT SEPARATE FROM YOU , NOT IN THIS LIFE OR THE LIFE TO COME. We will all be Judged by OUR WORDS, why MIKE, if as you say our words are not rally us., then why would God Judge us buy them?

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene

    #371621
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2014,12:08)
    Mike,

    Jesus personalizes wisdom as well as the word.  I believe that is the same as saying the aspect of being a person is added to the word………….


    Kerwin,

    You are talking in riddles – which would explain why Charles immediately grasped what you said.  :)

    Are you saying that the qualities of wisdom and God's word (His knowledge, teachings, instructions, commands, etc.) are personified in the living breathing being Jesus Christ?

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2014,12:08)
    ……. but all Scripture actually says is that the word was given the aspect of flesh.


    Scripture says no such thing.  Scripture says “the Word BECAME flesh”.

    You are just adding your own riddles to this clear and easy to understand statement.

    #371623
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Feb. 22 2014,02:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2014,09:06)

    Quote (Carmel @ 85)
    …….SATAN HAD THE RIGHT TO POSSESS ALL SOULS FROM BIRTH WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE SELECT DUE TO ADAM'S SIN………


    I have never heard such a thing, nor can I read anything about it in scripture
    So what's the point?  It's like we are speaking different languages.


    Mike,

    There are events, statements, and words in the bible that are not visible for all who read the bible……….


    Charles,

    Your post is too long and rambling for me to make heads or tails out of it.

    You have only two choices here:  

    1.  Post a CLEAR scripture that can CLEARLY teach me the things you've claimed in your quote above. (Only ONE scripture at a time.)

    2.  Walk away knowing that I will NEVER believe the many things you claim UNLESS you can show them to me in the scriptures.

    #371625
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 22 2014,10:40)
    Mike………So your Words are not a expression of yourself………..

    Any on with half a brain can see a Persons words “ARE” a Representative of HIS MIND


    See the word “OF”, Gene?

    Do you know what that word means?  I learned it at a very early age.  Have you not yet learned it?

    If my words are an expression OF myself, then they can't possibly BE “myself”.

    If they are a representative OF my mind, then they can't very well BE “my mind”.

    Can you understand these things?

    #371626
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Are you saying that the qualities of wisdom and God's word (His knowledge, teachings, instructions, commands, etc.) are personified in the living breathing being Jesus Christ?

    Yes.

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2014,12:08)
    ……. but all Scripture actually says is that the word was given the aspect of flesh.


    Quote
    Scripture says no such thing.  Scripture says “the Word BECAME flesh”.

    After the word became flesh is is said that The word is flesh.  You acknowledge that God is love means love is an aspect of God so you should see that The word is flesh means flesh is an aspect of the word.  Given that the word was made flesh means that the word was made to have the aspect of flesh..

    #371629
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    Quote
    JESUS PERSONALIZED ALSO FEMINISM SINCE SCRIPTURES IN SOLOMON, PROVERBS, AND JOB PROCLAIMED WISDOM AS FEMININE!

    They did that because the word wisdom is a feminine noun in Hebrew. The word word is masculine in both Hebrew and Koine Greek.

    #371632
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,11:19)
    After the word became flesh it is said that The word is flesh.


    Where?

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,11:19)
    You acknowledge that God is love means love is an aspect of God so you should see that The word is flesh means flesh is an aspect of the word.  Given that the word was made flesh means that the word was made to have the aspect of flesh.


    Again, you are talking in riddles.  For one, love is never said to have BECOME God, where the Word IS said to have BECOME flesh.

    And saying, “the Word was made to have the aspect of flesh” is the same thing as saying, “the Word WAS MADE flesh”.

    So the SCRIPTURAL teaching is that an entity called “the Word of God” actually CAME TO BE a flesh being called “Jesus”.  And you are playing word games to avoid this scriptural teaching, but end up saying the same exact thing anyway.  ???

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2014,11:19)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    Are you saying that the qualities of wisdom and God's word (His knowledge, teachings, instructions, commands, etc.) are personified in the living breathing being Jesus Christ?

    Yes.


    This is the only part that really matters anyway, Kerwin.  Because if you are saying that the qualities of wisdom and God's word are personified as the living breathing being known as Jesus Christ, then there is NO good reason you can give for NOT believing the same thing BEFORE Jesus became flesh.

    So if “wisdom” was being personified as Christ AFTER Christ was flesh, what scriptural reason do you have to say wisdom was NOT being personified as the living breathing person Jesus Christ in Proverbs 8?

    And if the Word of God was personified as Christ AFTER Christ was flesh, what scriptural reason do you have to say the Word of God, through whom all things were created, was not being personified as the living breathing person Jesus Christ in John 1:1-3, BEFORE Jesus became flesh?

    See?  You are stuck.  

    I, on the other hand, can take the things that are said about “the Word” BEFORE he became flesh, and point to scriptures where the same exact things are said about Jesus Christ.

    Get it?  Let me walk you through it:

    1.  You and I agree that the Word is personified as Jesus Christ.

    2.  You and I agree that all things came into existence through the Word.

    3.  But SCRIPTURE also says that all things came into existence through JESUS CHRIST, so I see the Word as being personified as Jesus Christ both before AND after he became flesh – which aligns with ALL of the scriptures.

    But YOU “explain away” those scriptures that say all things came into existence through Jesus Christ, so you can imagine that the Word is personified as Jesus Christ only AFTER he became flesh.

    See the difference?  We both start off believing the same thing, but then for some reason, you have to start explaining away clear scriptures so that you can deviate AWAY FROM the scriptural teachings, and only believe the parts you WANT to believe.

    I believe that's called “personal bias”, Kerwin.

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