John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,341 through 15,360 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #368335
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 24 2014,13:02)

    Quote
    just show me your scripture ,

    Terraricca,

    AFTER ABOUT SIXTY YEARS FROM JESUS' GLORIFICATION IN UNION WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST! IN

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH

    MALE AND FEMALE

    TWO TO BECOME ONE!

    FATHER AND SON

    prophesied:

    Genesis 2:24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh. 25 And they were both naked: to wit, Adam and his wife: and were not ashamed

    BOTH NAKED ON THE CROSS

    THE ONLY COVER WHICH GOD HAD, AND IN THE SAME TIME REMAINED IN THE NUDE!

    CONFIRMED

    THE WORD WAS GOD NO LONGER THE WORD! ONLY ONCE HAD TO BE SO TO CREATE ALL AND REDEEM ALL!

    THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH ONLY ONCE WAS IN THAT STATE FOR THE PURPOSE OF REDEMPTION, AND IT IS ACCOMPLISHED!

    HE SAID HIMSELF ON THE CROSS:

    ALL ACCOMPLISHED

    AND ALL HIS BLOOD WAS POURED ENTIRELY ON EARTH TO BAPTISE IT !

    JOHN CONFIRMED :

    Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour out waters upon the thirsty ground, and streams upon the dry land: I will pour out my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thy stock.

    [b] THE ABOVE WAS MANIFESTED IN THE OPEN HEART OF JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOUR GOD AS MAN!

    ONLY ONCE AND ENOUGH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles

    What you are saying ,is another gospel,

    #368346
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Jan. 24 2014,15:33][/quote]

    Quote
    .Let *US* make man in our image.
          **Our image**.
    And you say God and His Word has no form.
    Do we have no form?

    Wakeup,

    PLEASE REFLECT SERIOUSLY!

    GOD IS A UNIQUE GENUINE PURE SPIRIT! THAT IS ENOUGH! SO GOD HAS NO KIND OF SHAPE, SIZE, COLOUR, AND SO ON!

    ANSWER:

    WHAT WAS GOD REFERRING TO WHEN HE SAID IN OUR IMAGE?

    WHY PAUL STATED  HEREUNDER THAT JESUS WAS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD?

    Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God

    WAS HE REFERRING TO THE ACTUAL INVISIBLE SHAPE  OR TO HIS POWER, AND WORK!

    SINCE SOMETHING INVISIBLE HAS NO SHAPE?

    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WE BODY WISE ARE GOD'S IMAGE, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT JUST TO MENTION A CHIC IS BORN CLOTHED, CLEAN ,JUMPING WITH JOY, SINGING, IN COMPARISON TO THE MISERABLE CONDITION THAT WE ARE BORN IN, FULL OF BLOOD, SCREAMING, SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO BE SMACKED IN ORDER TO START BREATHING,NOT ABLE TO SLEEP IN THE SAME POSITION UNLESS WE ARE DEFORMED, NEVER MIND WALKING, AND CRYING ALMOST ALL THE TIME!

    ADAM WAS GOD'S IMAGE WITHOUT A FLESH AND BLOOD BODY! DO YOU KNOW THAT.

    DO YOU KNOW THAT WHEN ADAM SINNED HE RECEIVED SATAN'S IMAGE, of FLESH AND BLOOD?

    god of the world image!

    READ AND REFLECT:

    Corinthians 15: 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. 43It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power.  

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality.
     
    SO TELL ME,HOW COME IF WE ARE IN GOD'S IMAGE, WE ARE IN THAT EVIL MISERABLE STATE, AND ALSO ,JESUS CAME IN ALL THINGS LIKE US, TO MAKE US REALLY IN GOD'S IMAGE,

    THEREFORE LIKE HE IS NOW

    1 John3:2 We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him:

    OK THEN WE WOULD BE IN GOD'S IMAGE!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368347
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2014,13:02)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 23 2014,18:30)
    Mike………Tell us, can you separate your words from your “Self”, and your words from who you “ARE” ? Tell us how you do that.  This a may be interesting, please enlighten us Mike.  

    peace and love…………………………………..gene


    Yes Gene,

    I said the words, “Bite me!” to someone back in '83.

    Do you think those words are still around?  Do you think I'm still WITH those words back in Iowa – even though I've lived in Arizona for the past 13 years now?

    Listen Gene, WORDS don't even exist until they are said out loud.  Before they are SAID out loud, they are THOUGHTS, not WORDS.

    And once you say them out loud, they don't just take on a life of their own and hang out with you.  Once said, they are gone forever……. into the wind.

    The ONLY scenario I can think of where someone's word might be “with him” is in the case of an ECHO.  If I was in a canyon, I could say a word, and that word might linger around for a second or two.

    But other than that, a person's WORDS are never “with them”.

    And the only reason you would imagine such a thing is because you're trying your best to make SENSE out of the very FLAWED translation, “the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

    Try a better translation of John 1:1 – and then you won't have to imagine nonsensical things like this anymore, okay?  :)


    Mike………I can not believe you reason that way, If you say your words are Your Thoughts, that is correct and your Thoughts  ARE YOU, they are who and what you “ARE” is that to difficult for you to understand?.  God and his words “ARE” HIM, If you can't understand that, then perhaps this will help you.  We all agree Jesus said, God is a SPIRIT, “correct”?, and He also said the “WORDS” I am telling you “ARE” SPIRIT  “AND” life, Why are words spirit and life.

    Because words proceed forth from our “INTELLECTS” and intellects “ARE”  SPIRITS, and SPIRITS “ARE” What give us our “COGNATE awareness or LIFE we have. It is these Intellects that “ARE” LIFE itself. The LORD our God and His Spirit are ONE and the Same and His words proceed from his “BEING”, just as you do, from your “BEING”.  Therefore if “HIS” words abide “IN” you So dose HE , Just as he did Jesus.

    Gods words never are separate from Him no more then you word are separate from you. Now if a persons words are accepted by me he is given me his intellect or Spirit they carry, then i have received that spirit into my being, and that intellect becomes part of my thinking., that spirit has come into me and abides with me. So it is with God words.

    Now if God's words or Spirit abides with me then I have His knowledge in me and if I agree with it and hold to it then i am one with God and in this way I am in the Father and the Father is in me , by His Words which are his intellect or Spiriit. This is why Jesus said,   I am in the Father and the Father is in me and again I in you and you in me , it is though the Spirit or words of God that GOD'S WORDS which ARE HIS or IT”S  Life, is transmitted to us.   Just as it say we are being “WASHED” by the Word “OF” GOD.

    We are not being washed by Jesus's words , but by the Words of GOD, which also washed him by the way. Word proceed forth from Spirit and GOD “IS A SPIRIT, So Spirits are transmitted Words they are the carriers of Spirits . God and His Word are one and the same thing. Just as your words are one and the same thing No MATTER  When you said them at that time they were YOU.

    Now you could have Changed sense then and Maybe you are not that same person, but none the less those words, Were YOU when you said them, and every man shall be Judged by his Words, and give account of every Idle word , why because his word “ARE” or “WERE”, Him, Just as the LORD our God words are Him also.

    Mike and don't forget Jesus said clearly the words he spoke were NOT HIS WORDS, But the word of the FATHER>  IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

    #368348
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2014,05:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 23 2014,10:50)
    Mike,

    I believe that one called by the name of the word of God is a person but I also acknowledge Revelations is a book of prophecy and so it is filled with symbolism.


    Okay, but the bottom line is that you realize that the one who rides on a white horse and is called by the name “The Word of God” IS in fact a real, live PERSON?

    Is that correct?


    Mike,

    I perceive that is correct.

    I am just admitting that when prophecy us involved by confidence level of understanding it correctly drops.

    #368349
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 24 2014,03:52)
    [quote=kerwin,Jan. 24 2014,04:01][/quote]

    Quote
    Bought is a pretty good parallel to the Hebrew as both mean purchase.  I have not looked into the forth.  It does not disagree with your interpretation as Jesus was bought forth of a woman.

    Kerwin

    Come on, I learn't this in grade 1.
    “Brought” does not mean “buy”

    “Brought” is the past tense of “Bring”
    “Bought” is the past tense of “buy”


    Journey,

    I got the word wrong and the Koine Greek and the English word that the AV of the KJV are not equivalent words.

    #368403
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Carmel.

    Jesus in the flesh was the image of God in form; and in spirit.
    He had the fulness of God in Him.
    We are created also int he image of God in form; and shape.
    Now God is working on our spirit,to be Holy like Him.

    God has a face.
    He must have a body.

    Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

    Always provide scriptures when coming with new
    explanations.Any whispers, nor dreams can not be accepted as proof.

    wakeup.

    #368425
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Jan. 24 2014,15:33][/quote]

    Quote
    You say Jesus is God in the flesh;so God died.
      *BUT* the other God in heaven did not die,He is alive and
        well
      What is this riddle???  

    Wakeup,

    THE RIDDLE I'M AFRAID IS WITHIN YOUR UNDERSTANDING, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU ARE PUTTING GOD IN YOUR OWN BASKET OF FILTHY, CORRUPTED, DEADLY SATANIC HUMANITY!

    NOW REFLECT ON WHAT I ALREADY POSTED, AND YOU EITHER DIDN'T READ IT, OR ELSE YOU DIDN'T REFLECT UPON ENOUGH:

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself:

    IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE, JESUS MADE IT CLEAR, THAT ALTHOUGH JESUS WAS A MAN IN FLESH AND BLOOD , HE HAD LIFE IN HIMSELF!

    NOW THAT MEANS THE HE ALTHOUGH HE WAS A  MAN IN FLESH AND BLOOD AND ALSO IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, HE WAS STILL SINLESS, AND DIVINE!

    NOW DIVINE IS A SUBSTANCE FROM GOD, SO JESUS; FLESH AND BLOOD BODY THE WORD MADE FLESH

    TO MAKE IT CLEAR WITHOUT HIS SOUL, AS MATTER, FLESH AND BLOOD,

    WAS ALSO GOD'S SUBSTANCE, ETERNAL! NON MORTAL!

    AND WHEN HE DIED ON THE CROSS,  HE DIED ALSO HIS OWN PARTICULAR DEATH  HE DIED NOT LIKE WE DO!

    AS SOON AS WE DIE CORROSION STARTS!

    HE GOD IN FLESH COMMENCED NO CORROSION ON THE INSTANT OF HIS DEATH, BUT GLORIFIED, FIRST IN HIS SOUL, WHICH WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT,OK? INSTANTLY WITHOUT ANY DELAY THROUGH THE ACTUAL PROCESS OF DEATH ITSELF, WHICH WAS SATAN'S SPIRIT HIMSELF

    ALSO ON THAT PARTICULAR INSTANT OF HIS DEATH, HIS FLESH AND BLOOD BODY ONLY, SINCE IT HAD LIFE IN ITSELF CONTINUED THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS OF HIS BODY, WHICH HE STARTED BANG ON HIS BIRTH, AND THROUGHOUT HIS PERFECT GODLY LIFE AND ON THE THIRD DAY HE HIMSELF, AGAIN SINCE HE HAD LIFE WITHIN HIMSELF RAISED HIS BODY UP!

    THIS JESUS CONFIRMED IN THIS PIECE OF SCRIPTURE HEREUNDER:

    John 12:Amen, amen I say to you, unless the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, 25Itself remaineth alone. But if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world, keepeth it unto life eternal.

    NOW: In you carnal understandings, and also which make SENSE,

    does the seed REALLY DIES when it is BURIED in the soil, or COMMENCES the process to give its GENUINE FRUIT WHICH WAS CREATED FOR!

    ALSO:

    WHEN A CATERPILLAR ENTER HIS COCOON, DOES HE REALLY DIES, SINCE AS SOON AS HE IS READY WITH A COMPLETE NEW BODY ,AND NO LONGER A CATERPILLAR, HE COMES OUT AS A BUTTERFLY?

    SO WHY IT'S  NOT QUITE UNDERSTANDABLE TO YOU THAT WHAT GOD DID WITH HIS CREATURES HE CANNOT ACHIEVE IT FOR HIMSELF?

    NOW READ SCRIPTURES TO KNOW WHO JESUS WAS:

    John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

    ANSWER, HOW COME JESUS DECLARED THAT HE AS SON OF MAN, IS BOTH ON EARTH, AND ALSO IN HEAVEN,?

    ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT GOD ALMIGHTY TO BE BORN AS MAN, HE HAD TO LEAVE HEAVEN?

    WHAT OMNIPOTENCE WOULD BE ,IF HE COULD NOT ACHIEVE MANHOOD, IN A UNIQUE EVER BODY, AND ALSO IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, AND IN THE SAME TIME REMAIN IN HEAVEN?

    TO THE LAST BIT:

    READ AND EXPLAIN!

    1 Corinthians 15:6 Then he was seen by more than five hundred brethren at once: of whom many remain until this present, and some are fallen asleep.

    HOW COME JESUS IN ONE INSTANT IS SEEN BY FIVE HUNDRED PERSONS!

    WHERE ALL THE FIVE HUNDRED THE SAME JESUS CHRIST,

    IF IT WAS NOT DIFFICULT FOR GOD, TO PRODUCE HIMSELF IN FIVE HUNDRED IMAGES,  WAS IT DIFFICULT TO PRODUCE IT ONCE IN JESUS CHRIST AND STILL REMAIN IN HEAVEN?

    Peace and love in  Jesus

    Charles

    #368427
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Jan. 25 2014,13:55][/quote]

    Quote
    Jesus in the flesh was the image of God in form; and in spirit.

    Wakeup,

    with every respect:

    IF YOU WERE TO BE AWARE WHAT JESUS WAS WHEN HE WALKED ON EARTH YOU WOULD GO MAD!

    BUT READ THESE SCRIPTURES, REFLECT AND TELL ME WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND THROUGH JESUS OWN WORDS!

    John 14:30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing.

    NOW THE FIRST ADAM BANG ON HIS SIN,LOST GOD'S IMAGE AND  ACHIEVED SATAN'S IMAGE,

    THE OTHER ONE NOW:

    Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men:

    and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.

    He that can take, let him take it. ARE YOU READY FOR IT, CAN YOU ACCEPT THE TRUTH

    NOW I LEAVE IT TO YOUR INTELLIGENCE AND MATURITY IN THE SPIRITUAL LIFE TO POST WHAT JESUS MEANT WITH THOSE WORDS

    I MYSELF FEEL THAT NO ONE IS READY TO ACCEPT IT!

    ALSO THERE ARE MORE SCRIPTURES TO SUSTAIN WHAT I BELIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ENLIGHTEN ME WITH, OBVIOUS THE TRUTH!

    ALLELUIA!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368433
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Carmel.

    Quote

    GOD IS A UNIQUE GENUINE PURE SPIRIT! THAT IS ENOUGH! SO GOD HAS NO KIND OF SHAPE, SIZE, COLOUR, AND SO ON!

    .

    GOD IS A SPIRIT.I AGREE.
    HE CAN BE IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM,BUT HAS HIS OWN FORM,HE IS LIKE US IN SHAPE.WE ARE MADE IN HIS SHAPE,
    NOT SUSTANCE.

    Quote

    WHAT WAS GOD REFERRING TO WHEN HE SAID IN OUR IMAGE?
    WHY PAUL STATED HEREUNDER THAT JESUS WAS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD?
    Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God
    WAS HE REFERRING TO THE ACTUAL INVISIBLE SHAPE OR TO HIS POWER, AND WORK!
    SINCE SOMETHING INVISIBLE HAS NO SHAPE?

    JESUS WAS THE IMAGE OF GOD,AND SO ARE WE.
    *EXCEPT* JESUS IS *HOLY* SPIRITUALLY;WE ARE *UNHOLY* SPIRITUALLY.THE SPIRIT OF MEN IS LUST OF THE FLESH.
    COL 1:15. SPEAKS OF JESUS THE IMAGE OF THE *INVISIBLE* GOD. THIS MEANS THAT GOD HAS A FORM.
    INVISIBLE,BUT WITH A FORM.
    AND JESUS HAD GOD'S FORM PHYSICALLY,AND SPIRITUALLY. GOD HAD THE SAME *FORM*NOT IN SUBSTANCE.FOR GOD IS A SPIRIT.

    Quote

    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WE BODY WISE ARE GOD'S IMAGE, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT JUST TO MENTION A CHIC IS BORN CLOTHED, CLEAN ,JUMPING WITH JOY, SINGING, IN COMPARISON TO THE MISERABLE CONDITION THAT WE ARE BORN IN, FULL OF BLOOD, SCREAMING, SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO BE SMACKED IN ORDER TO START BREATHING,NOT ABLE TO SLEEP IN THE SAME POSITION UNLESS WE ARE DEFORMED, NEVER MIND WALKING, AND CRYING ALMOST ALL THE TIME!

    THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS IRRELEVANT.
    WE ARE MADE IN HIS IMAGE, AS THE SCRIPTURE STATES;
    BUT *NOT* SPIRITUALLY; *YET*. GOD IS WORKING ON THE SPIRITUAL AT THIS MINUTE. CLEANSING US FROM THE INSIDE OUT; SPIRITUALLY. SO WE CAN BE LIKE HIM.
    FOR GOD IS HOLY AND WE ARE TO BE HOLY.ONLY THEN CAN WE BE WHOLY IN CHRIST, AND IN GOD. WE WILL HAVE A FORM LIKE WE HAVE NOW BUT MADE OF LIGHT;NOT FLESH.THE MORE WE FEED ON HIS WORD;THE MORE WE BECOME LIKE HIM.
    THE FLESH WILL BE PAST,THE COCOON IS OF NO USE ANYMORE.

    Quote

    ADAM WAS GOD'S IMAGE WITHOUT A FLESH AND BLOOD BODY! DO YOU KNOW THAT.

    .

    ADAM WAS MADE IN GODS FORM;SHAPE. MADE OF THE DUST. BEFORE ADAM SINNED;HE WAS PURE IN SPIRIT.
    HIS FLESH IS STILL MADE OF DUST.

    Quote

    DO YOU KNOW THAT WHEN ADAM SINNED HE RECEIVED SATAN'S IMAGE, of FLESH AND BLOOD?

    .

    NOT IN SCRIPTURE: ADAM WAS OF FLESH AND BLOOD BEFORE HE SINNED.

    Quote

    god of the world image!
    Corinthians 15: 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. 43It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality.

    .

    THE FLESH HAS DESIRES;AND THOSE DESIRES ARE OF
    WHAT THE EYE CAN SEE. AND SATAN IS USING THAT TO TEMPT US. EVE SAW THAT THE FRUIT LOOKS GOOD;SHE WAS TEMPTED BY LOOKS, AND SMELL, AND DESIRES.

    Quote

    SO TELL ME,HOW COME IF WE ARE IN GOD'S IMAGE, WE ARE IN THAT EVIL MISERABLE STATE, AND ALSO ,JESUS CAME IN ALL THINGS LIKE US, TO MAKE US REALLY IN GOD'S IMAGE,
    THEREFORE LIKE HE IS NOW

    WE ARE MADE IN GOD'S FORM,SHAPE: HANDS,LEDGS,HEAD.
    BUT OF DUST *SUBSTANCE*.
    WE CAN MAKE AN *IMAGE* OF OUR SELVES, OF STONE,OR WOOD,OR CLAY,BUT LIFELESS.

    Quote

    1 John3:2 We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him:
    OK THEN WE WOULD BE IN GOD'S IMAGE!

    WE WILL BE IN OUR SHAPE AND FORM,BUT OF A HIGHER SUBSTANCE;WHICH IS SPIRIT,LIKE THE ANGELS.

    THE WORD OF GOD WAS TRANSFORMED INTO FLESH IN THE WOMB. HE WAS MADE FLESH;FROM SPIRIT TO FLESH.
    HE WAS BORN WITH THE FULNESS OF GOD IN HIM.
    HE IS HOLY;HE HAS POWER,BUT ALSO VERY HUMBLE,BUT STRONG.HE CAME TO EARTH TO DO A TASK. AND THAT IS.

    1.TO REVEAL THE TRUE GOD TO MANKIND STARTING WITH
    THE JEWS.

    2. THEN TO GIVE HIMSELF AS A SACRIFICE.

    3.THAT SACRIFICE IS TO OPEN THE DOOR TO GOD;THAT
    WAS CLOSED BECAUSE OF DISOBEDIENCE.

    4. ONE CAN NOT TRULY FULLY FOLLOW THE
    COMMANDMENTS.
    SO WE ALL ARE LOST.GONE,FINISHED.

    5.BUT GOD IS MERCYFUL;WE CAN HAVE THAT MERCY IF:
    WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD AND THE
    MESSIAH. AND FOLLOW HIS WAY.

    6.COME OUT OF BABYLON;FOR BABYLON IS NOT HIS WAY.
    ZION/HOLY JERUSALEM, IS HIS WAY.
    DWELL IN ZION; NOT IN BABYLON,WHERE THE THIEVES,
    ROBBERS AND BLASPHEMERS ARE.

    wakeup.

    #368442
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 24 2014,09:24)
    Mike………I can not believe you reason that way, If you say your words are Your Thoughts, that is correct and your Thoughts  ARE YOU, they are who and what you “ARE” is that to difficult for you to understand?.


    I don't say my words are my thoughts, Gene.  I say it isn't even a “word” until the thought is SPOKEN.  And once SPOKEN, the word does not just hang around WITH me.

    So NO – my words are never “with me”.

    And even before the thoughts are spoken into words, the thoughts are not “ME” either.

    Any time you can say “MY thoughts”, or “HIS thoughts”, or “THEIR thoughts” – you are speaking of POSSESSIONS of people.  You are not speaking about the entire person themselves.

    Gene, forget “word” for a minute, and show me an instance from scripture or Google or whatever where a something OF someone actually IS that someone.

    For example, is the power OF God actually God Himself?  Is the love OF God actually God Himself?  Is the righteousness OF God actually God Himself?

    Or are they all things that God POSSESSES?

    Like I said, the only reason you would invent the ludicrous notion that something could be WITH someone, and also BE that very someone at the same time is because your mind is trying desperately to make sense of these flawed words:  “the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

    So get yourself a more accurate and sensible translation of John 1, and your mind won't have to go through such turmoil to make sense of the nonsensical anymore.

    I suggest you try either Moffatt's translation (and the Word was divine), or the NWT translation (and the Word was a god). That way, you can come to the SENSIBLE conclusion that “the Word” wasn't actually the God he was WITH, but someone or something OTHER THAN the God he was WITH.

    And then your mind won't be going through so much turmoil, and causing you to spout nonsensical things.

    #368443
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 24 2014,13:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2014,05:33)

    Okay, but the bottom line is that you realize that the one who rides on a white horse and is called by the name “The Word of God” IS in fact a real, live PERSON?

    Is that correct?


    Mike,

    I perceive that is correct.  


    I concur. We both agree that “the Word of God” refers to a real, live person in Revelation 19:13.

    So our only difference on this matter seems to be that I believe the same phrase also refers to a real, live person in John 1:1 and 1:14……. and you don't.

    Does that sound about right?

    #368449
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Jan. 23 2014,10:33][/quote]

    Quote
    1 Kings 4:29
    God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight……..

    And who is called “wisdom” in the above verse?  The answer is “NOBODY”, because this verse speaks of LITERAL wisdom.

    Mike,

    It is not just literal only!

    God gave Solomon a spirit and this particular spirit was of wisdom!

    All God's attributes are spirits SINCE HE IS ONLY SPIRIT SUBSTANCE and he gives his spirits as he feels fit to his creatures!

    Literally for me what we are doing now ,SIMPLY TALK ABOUT WISDOM!

    BUT WHENEVER GOD GIVES HIS ATTRIBUTES TO HIS CREATURES, LIKE IN THE CASE OF SOLOMON HE GAVE THAT SPECIFIC SPIRIT! WHICH IN THAT CASE WAS WISDOM!

    NOW REGARDING JESUS THOUGH, HE WAS FULL OF GOD'S  SPIRITS !

    IS THERE ANYTHING YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368451
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    GOD IS A SPIRIT.I AGREE.
    HE CAN BE IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM,BUT HAS HIS OWN FORM,HE IS LIKE US IN SHAPE.WE ARE MADE IN HIS SHAPE,
    NOT SUSTANCE.

    Wakeup,

    GOD HAS OUR CREATION AS THE ONLY VISIBLE BODY,AND ALL HIS SPIRITUAL CREATURES AS THE ONLY INVISIBLE BODY!

    ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM ,ALL FOR HIM!

    Quote
    BUT HAS HIS OWN FORM,HE IS LIKE US IN SHAPE.

    HIS ONLY PERSONAL FORM, BODY, SHAPE AND IMAGE IS JESUS CHRIST! AND HE FROM GOD'S SPIRIT WAS SENT IN ALL THINGS LIKE US, IN ORDER TO MAKE US LIKE HIM

    JOHN THE BAPTIST CONFIRMED WHEN HE SAID:

    HE WAS BEFORE ME!

    I NEVER KNEW HIM!

    SINCE HE WAS HIS COUSIN, HE DEFINITELY MEANT THAT HE NEVER KNEW HIM BEFORE IN HEAVEN!

    John1:30 And I knew him not; but HE WHO SENT ME ……………… HE WHO SENT ME IS ENOUGH PROOF THAT HE NEVER KNEW GOD!

    GOD IS A MYSTERY, AND HE WILL REMAIN A MYSTERY, AND JESUS CHRIST REVEALED HIM IN HIMSELF, THE REASON HE BECAME MAN! IN HIS ENEMIES REALM, SINCE SATAN BELIEVED THAT ONLY HE IN THE ANTICHRIST COULD ACHIEVE IT!

    WHICH HE LOST ON THE CROSS!

    Quote
    INVISIBLE,BUT WITH A FORM.

    THAT'S NONSENSE!

    Quote
    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WE BODY WISE ARE GOD'S IMAGE, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT JUST TO MENTION A CHIC IS BORN CLOTHED, CLEAN ,JUMPING WITH JOY, SINGING, IN COMPARISON TO THE MISERABLE CONDITION THAT WE ARE BORN IN, FULL OF BLOOD, SCREAMING, SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO BE SMACKED IN ORDER TO START BREATHING,NOT ABLE TO SLEEP IN THE SAME POSITION UNLESS WE ARE DEFORMED, NEVER MIND WALKING, AND CRYING ALMOST ALL THE TIME!

    THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS IRRELEVANT.

    FOR YOU YES! BUT IT IS THE TRUTH!

    Quote
    NOT IN SCRIPTURE: ADAM WAS OF FLESH AND BLOOD BEFORE HE SINNED.

    NOT IN SCRIPTURE!

    READ THIS SCRIPTURE:

    11Because the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you, that you may make atonement with it upon the altar for your souls, and the blood may be for an expiation of the soul.

    THEREFORE THE BLOOD WAS GIVEN AFTER THEY SINNED!

    Quote

    WE WILL BE IN OUR SHAPE AND FORM,BUT OF A HIGHER SUBSTANCE;WHICH IS SPIRIT,LIKE THE ANGELS.

    WRONG NOT LIKE THE ANGELS, BUT LIKE JESUS CHRIST GOD, THEREFORE WE WOULD BE LIKE GOD, AND EVEN THE ANGELS  WOULD BE LIKE US, ALL CREATURES WOULD OWN JESUS' BODY, THE CHURCH, THE BRIDE, THEN THE FATHER WOULD BE ALL IN ALL

    OK? READ AGAIN!

    1 John3:2 We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him:

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368464
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2014,22:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 24 2014,13:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2014,05:33)

    Okay, but the bottom line is that you realize that the one who rides on a white horse and is called by the name “The Word of God” IS in fact a real, live PERSON?

    Is that correct?


    Mike,

    I perceive that is correct.  


    I concur.  We both agree that “the Word of God” refers to a real, live person in Revelation 19:13.  

    So our only difference on this matter seems to be that I believe the same phrase also refers to a real, live person in John 1:1 and 1:14……. and you don't.

    Does that sound about right?


    Mike,

    Yes.

    #368468
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Carmel.

    Quote

    GOD HAS OUR CREATION AS THE ONLY VISIBLE BODY,AND ALL HIS SPIRITUAL CREATURES AS THE ONLY INVISIBLE BODY!
    ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM ,ALL FOR HIM!

    .

    I AGREE. FOR NOW WE ARE FLESH;UNTILL THE SPIRIT OF MEN IS CLEANSED AND PURIFIED ,READY TO BE QUICKENED.

    Quote

    HIS ONLY PERSONAL FORM, BODY, SHAPE AND IMAGE IS JESUS CHRIST! AND HE FROM GOD'S SPIRIT WAS SENT IN ALL THINGS LIKE US, IN ORDER TO MAKE US LIKE HIM
    JOHN THE BAPTIST CONFIRMED WHEN HE SAID:
    HE WAS BEFORE ME!

    JESUS FORM; AND SPIRIT IS OF GOD'S FORM AND SPIRIT.
    LET *US* MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.
    THE WORD OF GOD CREATED ALL THINGS; THIS INCLUDES
    JOHN THE BABTIST. HE WAS BORN 6 MONTHS BEFORE JESUS,WAS MADE FLESH.

    Quote

    I NEVER KNEW HIM!
    SINCE HE WAS HIS COUSIN, HE DEFINITELY MEANT THAT HE NEVER KNEW HIM BEFORE IN HEAVEN!

    NO; THEY HAVE NEVER MET PERSONALLY, JOHN LIVED IN THE WILDERNESS,AND ATE LOCUTS.JOHN WAS NOT FROM HEAVEN.
    FOR GOD HAD TO GIVE JOHN THE SIGN OF A DOVE TO IDENTIFY JESUS,THE TRUE MESSIAH.

    Quote

    John1:30 And I knew him not; but HE WHO SENT ME ……………… HE WHO SENT ME IS ENOUGH PROOF THAT HE NEVER KNEW GOD!

    IT WAS GOD THAT SEND JOHN. IT WAS GOD THAT GAVE THE SIGN OF A DOVE ON JESUS.

    Quote

    GOD IS A MYSTERY, AND HE WILL REMAIN A MYSTERY, AND JESUS CHRIST REVEALED HIM IN HIMSELF, THE REASON HE BECAME MAN! IN HIS ENEMIES REALM, SINCE SATAN BELIEVED THAT ONLY HE IN THE ANTICHRIST COULD ACHIEVE IT!

    THIS IS A MYSTERY INDEED,BUT SOME ARE GIVEN TO KNOW THAT MYSTERY.
    NO MAN KNOWS THE SON,BUT THE FATHER.
    AND NO MAN KNOWS THE FATHER BUT THE SON;**AND HE TO WHOM THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM**.LUKE 10:22.

    Quote
    .
    WHICH HE LOST ON THE CROSS!

    THE DEATH OF JESUS ON THE CROSS WAS ONLY THE FIRST STEP.HE HAS TO COME AGAIN TO DEFEAT SATAN IN THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON,BUT STILL, ONE MORE STEP TO GO;AND THAT WOULD BE THE BATTLE OF GOG AND MAGOG,
    IN LATTER YEARS.

    Quote

    NOT IN SCRIPTURE!
    READ THIS SCRIPTURE:
    11Because the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you, that you may make atonement with it upon the altar *for your souls*, and the blood may be for an expiation *of the soul*.
    THEREFORE THE BLOOD WAS GIVEN AFTER THEY SINNED!

    THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE STATING THAT THE BLOOD WAS AFTER ADAM SINNED.
    THE **LIFE** IS IN THE BLOOD; NOT THE SOUL.
    THE BLOOD IS FLESH; THE SOUL IS THE SPIRIT OF MAN.
    THE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE. EVERY MANS SOUL IS WHAT HE IS AS A PERSON.SOME GOOD SOULS,SOME BAD SOULS.
    ADAM HAD LIFE,THEREFORE HE HAD BLOOD ALSO.

    WE WILL BE IN OUR SHAPE AND FORM,BUT OF A HIGHER SUBSTANCE;WHICH IS SPIRIT,LIKE THE ANGELS.

    Quote

    WRONG NOT LIKE THE ANGELS, BUT LIKE JESUS CHRIST GOD, THEREFORE WE WOULD BE LIKE GOD, AND EVEN THE ANGELS WOULD BE LIKE US, ALL CREATURES WOULD OWN JESUS' BODY, THE CHURCH, THE BRIDE, THEN THE FATHER WOULD BE ALL IN ALL

    Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
    WE SHOULD NEVER CONTRADICT WHAT IS WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURES,AND INTRODUCE OUR OWN INTERPRETATONS.

    Quote

    OK? READ AGAIN!
    1 John3:2 We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him:

    WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM IN GLORY AND LIGHT.LIKE ALL THE ANGELS, BUT NOT ALL WILL BE IN SAME BRIGHTNESS.
    WITH A SHAPE AND FORM AS GOD'S FORM.
    MOSES SAW GOD'S FORM,BUT NOT HIS FACE.
    IF GOD HAS A FACE,HE ALSO HAS A FORM.
    ISAIAH, EZEKIEL SAW THE CHARIOT OF GOD *IN VISON*
    GOD SITTING ON HIS THRONE,BUT COULD NOT SEE HIS FACE CLEARLY.

    wakeup.

    #368498
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 25 2014,15:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2014,22:20)
    We both agree that “the Word of God” refers to a real, live person in Revelation 19:13.  

    So our only difference on this matter seems to be that I believe the same phrase also refers to a real, live person in John 1:1 and 1:14……. and you don't.

    Does that sound about right?


    Mike,

    Yes.


    Good. Now all you need to know is that I'm right, and you're wrong. :)

    But we'll get to that part in the private thread.

    #368499
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 25 2014,12:10)
    God gave Solomon a spirit and this particular spirit was of wisdom!


    I don't know of any scripture that says God gave Solomon “a spirit of wisdom” – but I suppose the following could poetically be said:  “And God placed the spirit of wisdom in Solomon's heart” – or something similar.

    But even if we said it all poetically like that, it still wouldn't mean that God has a particular spirit named “Wisdom” that He sends to people on occasion.

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 25 2014,12:10)
    All God's attributes are spirits SINCE HE IS ONLY SPIRIT SUBSTANCE and he gives his spirits as he feels fit to his creatures!


    I agree that “wisdom” is an abstract quality, and not a physical thing.  But God also gives physical things to all of us every day.  We call them food and clothing and shelter, etc.  

    I don't see evidence here that literal wisdom is a “spirit”, or a “spirit being”.

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 25 2014,12:10)
    NOW REGARDING JESUS THOUGH, HE WAS FULL OF GOD'S  SPIRITS !


    I know that Jesus was given the Holy Spirit without measure.  I don't know from scripture that he was “full of God's spirits”.

    Show me.

    (Btw, I am going out on a limb with you here, Charles. I told you from the start that I'm not interested in a “quasi-philosophical” discussion about things we can only guess at. So make your point fast, because I'm eventually going to bail from this one.)

    #368517
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Jan. 26 2014,15:48][/quote]

    Quote
    I don't see evidence here that literal wisdom is a “spirit”, or a “spirit being”.

    Mike,

    READ:

    Isaiah 11:2And THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD shall rest upon him:  

    THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND OF UNDERSTANDING,

    THE SPIRIT OF COUNSEL, AND OF FORTITUDE,

    THE SPIRIT OF KNOWLEDGE, AND OF GODLINESS,

    3 AND HE SHALL BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE FEAR OF THE LORD.

    WHAT IS THE ACTUAL MEANING FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE FEAR OF THE LORD ?

    OK Mike,

    The above are the spirits which Jesus owned, FIRST AS THE WORD, TO CREATE ALL, and then as THE WORD MADE FLESH TO MANIFEST GOD'S WORK ON HIS ENEMIES REALM EARTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368518
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Jan. 26 2014,15:48][/quote]

    Quote
    it still wouldn't mean that God has a particular spirit named “Wisdom”

    Mike,

    Names are nothing, it is the THE SPIRIT what counts, so GOD WOULD ALLOCATE WISDOM TO A PARTICULAR SPIRIT WHICH HE EMANATE AND INSERT IT IN HIS CREATURES, LIKE HE DID IN SOLOMON , AND MANY MORE OTHERS LIKE LUCIFER WHO WAS FULL OF WISDOM, AND ALSO JOSHUA, TWO WHICH JUST CAME TO MY MIND!

    JESUS CONFIRMED THAT THE SPIRIT QUICKEN, THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING!

    SO WHATEVER WE ACQUIRE REGARDING SPIRITUAL QUALITIES DEFINITELY COMES FROM GOD DIRECTLY!

    BUT MATERIAL, SINCE IT IS MORTAL, FROM THE MORTAL WORLD! SATAN'S

    IT IS DEFINITELY THROUGH THE WORD FOR SURE! SINCE ALL WAS CREATED BY HIM AND WITH HIM!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368519
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Jan. 26 2014,15:48][/quote]

    Quote
    I agree that “wisdom” is an abstract quality

    Mike,

    what is an abstract quality?

    IS IT AWKWARD FOR YOU  TO CALL IT SPIRIT?

    WHATEVER IS WITHIN ALL EXISTENCE IS BY THE WORD, AND WITH THE WORD, AND THE WORD IS A SPIRIT WHICH THE FATHER SEALED IN THE ENTIRE NATURE!

    KEEP IN MIND THAT OUR FLESH BODY WAS ALSO SPIRIT AT ONE STAGE AND LOST ITS SPIRITUAL STATE THROUGH THE REBEL!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

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