John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,361 through 15,380 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #368521
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 26 2014,08:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2014,15:48)
    I don't see evidence here that literal wisdom is a “spirit”, or a “spirit being”.

    Mike,

    READ:

    Isaiah 11:2And THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD shall rest upon him:  

    THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND OF UNDERSTANDING,

    THE SPIRIT OF COUNSEL, AND OF FORTITUDE,

    THE SPIRIT OF KNOWLEDGE, AND OF GODLINESS,

    3 AND HE SHALL BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE FEAR OF THE LORD.

    WHAT IS THE ACTUAL MEANING FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE FEAR OF THE LORD ?

    OK Mike,

    The above are the spirits which Jesus owned, FIRST AS THE WORD, TO CREATE ALL, and then as THE WORD MADE FLESH TO MANIFEST GOD'S WORK ON HIS ENEMIES REALM EARTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Isaiah 11 NET Bible
    11:2 The Lord’s spirit will rest on him –

    a spirit that gives extraordinary wisdom,

    a spirit that provides the ability to execute plans,

    a spirit that produces absolute loyalty to the Lord.

    11:3 He will take delight in obeying the Lord.

    He will not judge by mere appearances,  

    or make decisions on the basis of hearsay.

    Verse 2 sounds like it describes God's Holy Spirit, which is “a spirit that gives extraordinary wisdom, a spirit that provides the ability to execute plans, a spirit that produces absolute loyalty to the Lord”.

    I'm not seeing multiple spirits here, but only one Holy Spirit.

    And in verse 3, I don't see any mention of a “spirit of the fear of Jehovah” at all, like it says in the version you quoted.

    #368522
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 26 2014,08:15)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2014,15:48)
    it still wouldn't mean that God has a particular spirit named “Wisdom”

    Mike,

    Names are nothing, it is the THE SPIRIT what counts, so GOD WOULD ALLOCATE WISDOM TO A PARTICULAR SPIRIT WHICH HE EMANATE AND INSERT IT IN HIS CREATURES, LIKE HE DID IN SOLOMON……….


    It is thought by scientists that human beings use a mere 10% of our incredibly designed brains.

    So perhaps God just allowed another 5% of Solomon's brain to be used.

    I don't think there is any particular “spirit of wisdom” that God sends to certain people, Charles. All of us were created with a fair amount of wisdom. Is that one spirit inserted into everybody?

    #368523
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Jan. 26 2014,15:48][/quote]

    Quote
    I don't see evidence here that literal wisdom is a “spirit”, or a “spirit being”.

    Mike,

    THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT GOD CANNOT EMANATE OR EVEN CREATE A SPIRIT BEING AND ALLOCATE TO HIM ONE OF HIS ATTRIBUTES IN ORDER TO ACCOMPLISH HIS WORK THROUGH HIM NO?

    NOW READ:

    PROVERBS 8:22The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.

    23I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made.

    24The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out:

    25The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

    26He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world.

    27When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths:

    28When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters:

    29When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth;

    30I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

    THE ABOVE IS CLEAR ENOUGH THAT GOD POSSESSED, OR OWNED WISDOM, OBVIOUS AS ONE OF HIS VITAL ATTRIBUTES WITH HIM, FROM ETERNITY!
    THEN IT IS ALSO CLEAR THAT GOD BROUGHT FORTH OBVIOUS A SPIRIT AND ALLOCATED  WISDOM TO HIM/HER BEFORE OUR CREATION!

    IT IS DEFINITELY ALSO CLEAR  THAT IT WAS WITH THE WORD FORMING ALL THINGS, SINCE ALL WAS CREATED BY HIM, AND WITH HIM!

    THEN WE COME TO THE CONCLUSION TO WHAT PAUL MEANT WHEN HE STATED THAT:

    CHRIST,THE WORD MADE FLESH, IS THE WISDOM AND POWER OF GOD!

    WE ALSO COME TO THE CONCLUSION WHY WISDOM IS ATTRIBUTED TO THE FEMININE IMAGE  ALSO IN JESUS

    Now read Genesis 1: 27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: MALE AND FEMALE  he created them.

    SO FROM THE ABOVE IT IS CLEAR THAT THE FACT THAT THE FIRST ADAM WAS CREATED BOTH MALE AND FEMALE, IT IS ALSO A REFERENCE TO JESUS THE SECOND ADAM, THE LIFE GIVING SPIRIT TO BE ALSO BORN MALE AND FEMALE, OTHERWISE THE FEMALE WOULD BE IN A WAY NEGLECTED BY GOD, AND ALSO NOT REDEEMED!

    THIS WAS QUITE INDICATED BY JESUS WHEN HE  STATED:

    Luke 7:35 And wisdom is justified by all HER children.

    THIS IS A REFERENCE TO  ALL THE WOMEN, WISDOM'S CHILDREN! WHO WERE ALSO MYSTERIOUSLY, AND WISELY REDEEMED THROUGH JESUS CHRIST ALTHOUGH THEY WERE  NOT GIVEN IMPORTANCE IN THE CHURCH,AND STILL BATTLING IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR PRIESTHOOD, AND EVEN TO REACH THE HIGHEST POSITION AS POPE!

    THAT WOULD BE THE DAY!

    MORE:

    13:34………….how often would I have gathered thy children as the bird doth HER brood under HER wings, and thou wouldest not?

    THE ABOVE IS DIRECTED TO JERUSALEM DEFINITELY TO SIGNIFY THE FLESH AND BLOOD BODY IN THE FEMINISM OF EVE! THE MOTHER OF ALL THE LIVING IN THE FLESH!

    NOW HEREUNDER JESUS EVEN COMPARED HIMSELF WITH A WOMAN IN LABOUR!

    21A woman, when she is in labour, hath sorrow, because her hour is come;………..22So also you now indeed have sorrow; but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice; and your joy no man shall take from you.

    TO CONCLUDE REFLECT THE FEMININE ASPECT IN JESUS’ REDEMPTION!

    JESUS ISSUED BLOOD AND WATER FROM HIS BREAST WHEN THROUGH HIS DEATH GAVE BIRTH TO ALL HIS NEW  CREATION!

    A WOMAN DOES ALSO THE SAME THING TO HER NEW BORN WITH HER FIRST MILK

    JESUS SUFFERED TO GIVE LIFE TO ALL HIS NEW CREATION: CHILDREN OF GOD!

    A WOMAN DOES ALSO THE SAME THING TO GIVE LIFE TO  HER NEW BORN CHILD

    JESUS ALSO IS THE WATER OF LIFE IN REV:22:17 let him take the water of life, freely.

    THE WOMAN ALSO GIVES HER CHILD IN HER WOMB, WATER OF LIFE FREELY DURING PREGNANCY!

    THERE ARE MORE OF IT BUT SINCE YOU ARE ALLERGIC TO LONG POSTS I QUIT!

    Quote
    So make your point fast, because I'm eventually going to bail from this one.)

    I don’t blame you Mike, it is always subject to the love of either GOD, or god of the world! One cannot serve two masters!

    SO NOW YOU CAN BAIL!

    I WILL NEVER DO SO!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368524
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 26 2014,08:22)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2014,15:48)
    I agree that “wisdom” is an abstract quality

    Mike,

    what is an abstract quality?

    IS IT AWKWARD FOR YOU TO CALL IT SPIRIT?


    It's not that it would be “awkward”.  It's more a matter of it being inaccurate.

    Love is also an abstract quality that most of us have.  But I also don't believe “love” is a particular “spirit of God” that is “inserted into us”.

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 26 2014,08:22)
    KEEP IN MIND THAT OUR FLESH BODY WAS ALSO SPIRIT AT ONE STAGE AND LOST ITS SPIRITUAL STATE THROUGH THE REBEL!


    And now you've lost me again.  This is why I don't usually get involved with you in scriptural discussions – because your ideas come from outside of the scriptures.

    Scripture clearly says that God created Adam “from the dust of the earth”.  That means mankind was created from the elements of our earth and our biosphere.  We are comprised of iron, oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, zinc, etc. – all elements of our environment.

    Scripture does not tell me that we were originally spirit beings like the angels.  So why would YOU tell me that?

    #368525
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2014,01:43)


    Quote
    And in verse 3, I don't see any mention of a “spirit of the fear of Jehovah” at all, like it says in the version you quoted.

    Mike,

    You know what versions I quote:

    either KJV

    or DRB.

    THE OLDEST EVER!

    I would never opt to rely on others!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368526
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 26 2014,08:55)
    PROVERBS 8:22The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.

    24The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out:

    25The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth

    THE ABOVE IS CLEAR ENOUGH THAT GOD POSSESSED, OR OWNED WISDOM, OBVIOUS AS ONE OF HIS VITAL ATTRIBUTES WITH HIM, FROM ETERNITY!


    But you are using a flawed translation of verse 22, Charles.  Try one of these:

    NET ©
    The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

    NIV ©
    “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

    NLT ©
    “The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.

    MSG ©
    “GOD sovereignly made me–the first, the basic–before he did anything else.

    BBE ©
    The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past.

    NRSV ©
    The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.

    All you need to do is look to the translation you posted, and see the words “conceived” and “brought forth” in verses 24 and 25.  Then you'll realize that what Proverbs 8:22-31 is REALLY clear about is the fact that this particular PERSON, who is only METAPHORICALLY called “wisdom”, was the first thing God ever created.  He was the first to be “created”, “conceived”, and “brought forth into existence”.

    Let the context speak to you, Charles.  It seems obvious that LITERAL wisdom already existed in God from eternity.  So what would it mean that wisdom was “conceived”?  Something that God has ALWAYS had cannot later “be conceived”.

    So I agree with the last statement in your quote box above – which is why the word “conceived” tells us that the “wisdom” in verses 22-31 is not LITERAL wisdom – but a person being personified as wisdom. And 1 Corinthians 1:24 tells us who that PERSON was.

    #368547
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Jan. 26 2014,09:37][/quote]

    Quote
    NO; THEY HAVE NEVER MET PERSONALLY, JOHN LIVED IN THE WILDERNESS,AND ATE LOCUTS.JOHN WAS NOT FROM HEAVEN.
    FOR GOD HAD TO GIVE JOHN THE SIGN OF A DOVE TO IDENTIFY JESUS,THE TRUE MESSIAH.

    Wakeup,

    Read:

    Matthew 3:14 But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me?

    OK WHEN JOHN SAID THE ABOVE WORDS TO JESUS, HE STILL HAD TO BAPTISE HIM!

    SO CONFIRMING WHAT I SAID, THAT HE NEVER KNEW HIM AS GOD, IN HEAVEN! SINCE NO ONE KNEW GOD, EXCEPT THROUGH THE WORD WHICH SPOKE WITHIN THEM!
    THE ONLY KIND OF COMMUNICATION ANGELS EVER HAD WITH GOD!

    NO ONE COULD SEE GOD AND LIVE!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368552
    jammin
    Participant

    this topic should now be closed. it has been cleared that the Word of God is christ himself.

    #368553
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 27 2014,04:02)
    this topic should now be closed. it has been cleared that the Word of God is christ himself.


    Jammin,

    Why did you bother starting it as you had already firmly established the answer you chose in your mind no matter what the evidence shows.

    #368582
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Jan. 27 2014,01:50][/quote]

    Quote
    So perhaps God just allowed another 5% of Solomon's brain to be used.

    MIKE,

    THIS IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU, YOU PUT GOD IN THE SAME BASKET OF HUMANITY!

    WHATEVER GOD DO HE ONLY DOES IT THROUGH HIS SPIRIT, IN HIS SPIRIT, AND BY HIS SPIRIT, SO IT WOULD BE TOTALLY SPIRIT SUBSTANCE, AND ONLY HE KNOWS HOW, IN WHAT QUANTITY, AND STATE, HE GIVES IT.

    OUR GENERAL WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE IS FOOLISHNESS TO GOD

    AND GOD FOOLISHNESS, IS SUPERIOR TO HUMAN WISDOM!

    YOU MIKE WITH EVERY RESPECT,SHOULD PRACTICE MORE WHAT YOU READ IN SCRIPTURES, BUT ALWAYS WITHIN GOD'S SPIRIT CONCEPTS, AND IGNORE COMPLETELY HUMAN CONCEPTS!

    READ SCRIPTURES AND MAKE SURE TO KEEP WITHIN GOD'S CONCEPTS:

    But if any of you want wisdom, let him ask of God, who GIVES to all men abundantly, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    Daniel2:21And he changeth times and ages: taketh away kingdoms and establisheth them, GIVES wisdom to the wise, and knowledge to them that have understanding.

    Ecclesiastes 2 God hath GIVEN to a man that is good in his sight, wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: …………….

    THE MOST COMMON WORD IS GIVES NOT AS YOU PUT IT ALLOW 5% OF SOLOMON'S BRAIN TO BE USED!

    SO MY BRAINS ARE IN A WAY BLOCKED BY GOD, WHICH IS NOT SO

    IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES IT IS CLEAR THAT GOD GIVES WISDOM BOTH TO THE WISE , AND TO THOSE WHO ASKS HIM EVEN IF HE LACKS IT!

    BUT IT IS ALWAYS DEPENDING ON US HOW MUCH WE ASK HIM IN ORDER TO LOVE HIM MORE, BECAUSE WHAT WE DO IS ALWAYS FOR HIS LOVE, BECAUSE HE IS LOVE ITSELF, AND EVERYTHING IS CREATED THROUGH HIS SPIRIT OF LOVE, THE MOST POWERFUL SPIRIT, APART OF THE SPIRIT OF MERCY!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368587
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 27 2014,07:25)
    [quote=Wakeup,Jan. 26 2014,09:37][/quote]

    Quote
    NO; THEY HAVE NEVER MET PERSONALLY, JOHN LIVED IN THE WILDERNESS,AND ATE LOCUTS.JOHN WAS NOT FROM HEAVEN.
    FOR GOD HAD TO GIVE JOHN THE SIGN OF A DOVE TO IDENTIFY JESUS,THE TRUE MESSIAH.

    Wakeup,

    Read:

    Matthew 3:14 But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me?

    OK WHEN JOHN SAID THE ABOVE WORDS TO JESUS, HE STILL HAD TO BAPTISE HIM!

    SO CONFIRMING WHAT I SAID, THAT HE NEVER KNEW HIM AS GOD, IN HEAVEN! SINCE NO ONE KNEW GOD, EXCEPT THROUGH THE WORD WHICH SPOKE WITHIN THEM!
    THE ONLY KIND OF COMMUNICATION ANGELS EVER HAD WITH GOD!

    NO ONE COULD SEE GOD AND LIVE!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    John the Baptist was blessed with the Holy Spirit
    at conception.
    Jesus had the Holy Spirit in full measure at conception.
    John knew Jesus.
    Jesus in the womb met John in the womb,and john in the womb leaped.
    Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the *babe leaped in her womb*; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

    wakeup.

    #368599
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    i did not. the bible said that

    #368613
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Jan. 27 2014,18:09][/quote]

    Quote
    John knew Jesus.

    Wakeup,

    these  ARE your words:

    Quote
    FOR GOD HAD TO GIVE JOHN THE SIGN OF A DOVE TO IDENTIFY JESUS,THE TRUE MESSIAH.

    AND I PROVED TO YOU THAT JOHN RECOGNIZED JESUS, AS THE SON OF GOD BEFORE THE DOVE WENT ON JESUS!

    SINCE HE SAID TO JESUS THAT JESUS OUGHT TO BAPTISE HIM RATHER! SO THEY KNEW EACH OTHER!

    AND HOW!

    NOW YOU ARE IN COMPLETE CONFUSION READ:

    John 1:30 This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man,

    WHO IS PREFERRED BEFORE ME: OBVIOUS THE SON OF GOD! AND ALSO WITH THIS STATEMENT JOHN IS CONFIRMING THAT HE IS MICHAEL! THE PRINCE OF HEAVEN!

    BECAUSE HE WAS BEFORE ME OBVIOUS AGAIN HE WAS ,AND IS ALWAYS WITH THE FATHER! NOT CREATED LIKE MICHAEL WAS!

    FROM THE ABOVE CONTEXT, JOHN WAS REFERRING TO MATTERS WITHIN HEAVEN'S REALM, WHEN JESUS, THE WORD THE SON'S SPIRIT, WAS STILL A MYSTERIOUS SPIRIT WITHIN CREATION!!!

    SO HE NEVER KNEW THE SON YET. WITHIN HEAVENS REALM!

    33 AND I KNEW HIM NOT; BEFORE THEY MET EACH OTHER FOR THE FIRST TIME GOD KNOWS WHEN ON EARTH AS COUSINS ,BEFORE THEIR MISSION!

    BUT HE WHO SENT ME, [B] ………AS I SAID OBVIOUS HE NEVER SAW GOD AND WILL NEVER SEE HIM! UNLESS HE DIES!

    JESUS IS THE ONLY IMAGE OF GOD, AND ONLY WITHIN HIM IS GOD REVEALED! JESUS IS THE ONLY TRUE VISIBLE GOD!

    THE FATHER  IS NOT VISIBLE AND HE NEVER WILL BE EXCEPT IN JESUS

    Quote
    Jesus in the womb met John in the womb,and John in the womb leaped.

    NONSENSE you are completely lost!

    ONLY MARY WAS CREATED TO CARRY JESUS' SPIRIT IN HER WOMB! THE SON OF GOD! GOD IN FLESH! AND ALSO THE SPOUSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! THEREFORE FULL OF GRACE, AND FULL OF SPIRIT!

    ELIZABETH WAS NOT SINLESS! HOW ON EARTH COULD SHE EVER CARRY BOTH JESUS' AND JOHN'S SPIRIT! YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND!

    Quote
    Luke 1:41   And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the *babe leaped in her womb*; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

    THAT WAS ONLY ONE OBVIOUS REASON WHY JOHN LEAPED!

    I RATHER NOT TELL YOU WHY JOHN LEAPED, BUT YOU SHOULD REALIZE WHY IF YOU REFLECT SERIOUSLY!

    THINK ABOUT IT!

    WHAT WAS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS AND JOHN, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT JESUS DECLARED THAT THERE WAS NO ONE AS PERFECT AS JOHN WHO WAS BORN OF A WOMAN?

    WHO WAS JOHN THEN? SINCE HE WAS MORE PERFECT THEN JESUS! AS A FOETUS!

    IN WHAT JOHN WAS MORE PERFECT THEN JESUS!

    WAS HE REFERRING TO THE PHYSICAL STATE?

    TO THE SPIRIT STATE?

    OR BOTH?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368617
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Jan. 26 2014,09:37][/quote]

    Quote
    THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE STATING THAT THE BLOOD WAS AFTER ADAM SINNED.

    Wakeup,

    What's wrong with you?

    Why don't you reflect enough on what I write, THEN YOU ANSWER!

    READ THIS SCRIPTURE AGAIN:

    11Because the life of the flesh is in the blood:

    THE LIFE OF THE FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD,

    AND THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE, THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING

    SO WHAT KEEPS THE FLESH BODY ALIVE?

    THE SOUL!

    SO THE SOUL IS LOCKED IN THE BLOOD!

    and I have given it to you,( THE BLOOD) THAT YOU MAY MAKE ATONEMENT WITH IT UPON THE ALTAR  *for your souls*, OK SO THE BLOOD WAS GIVEN  FOR  THE SOULS! OBVIOUS, SINCE THEY SINNED!NO?

    SO ADAM NEVER HAD BLOOD WHEN HE WAS HOLY IN THE GARDEN, HE WAS IN GOD’S IMAGE ALL SPIRITUAL ELEMENTS, NOTHING EARTHLY, SATANIC!

    BUT AS SOON AS HE SINNED, SATAN ENTERED IN ADAM’S SOUL  

    SO THE BLOOD WAS SATAN'S PRESENCE! AND THE SOUL WAS LOCKED IN IT, AND SINCE SATAN WAS THE DIRECT OPPONENT WITH GOD TO ACHIEVE MANHOOD, GOD SUPPLIED ADAM WITH THE RESPECTIVE EARTHLY, MORTAL  GENERAL PHYSICAL ELEMENTS RELATED TO HIS OPPONENT, SATAN'S CONCEPT!

    GOD IS JUST, AND ADAM REJECTED GOD, AND OPTED TO OBEY SATAN’S DIRECTION! AND HE BECAME HIS IMAGE!

    and the blood may be for an expiation *OF THE SOUL*.

    THEREFORE THE BLOOD WAS GIVEN AFTER THEY SINNED FOR AN EXPIATION OF THE SOUL!

    NOW READ:

    LEVITICUS 17:14 For the life of all flesh is in the blood: therefore I said to the children of Israel:

    YOU SHALL NOT EAT BLOOD of any flesh at all, because the life of the flesh THE SOUL is in the blood, and whosoever eateth it, shall be cut off

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT SATAN'S SPIRIT OWNED ALL SOULS, THROUGH SIN!

    NOW THE REASON THAT THEY OFFERED ANIMAL SACRIFICE AND POURED THE BLOOD ON THE ALTAR TO BE BURNED WAS, SO THROUGH THE BURNING OF THE BLOOD, SATAN'S SPIRIT WOULD BE ELIMINATED, AND THE SOULS WHICH OBVIOUS WHERE WITHIN THE BLOOD WOULD BE RELEASED CLEAN FROM SATAN'S SPIRIT, AND WOULD ENTER THROUGH THE SPERM OF MAN IN THE WOMB OF THE WOMAN!

    JESUS HAD TO COME IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, THEREFORE ALSO IN FLESH AND BLOOD BUT DIVINE THROUGHOUT, THE ONLY STATE IN ORDER TO BE THE MESSIAH!

    SO JESUS REDEEMED ALL, AND FROM THEN ON, SACRIFICE WAS ABOLISHED, BLOOD COULD BE GIVEN, AND EATEN!

    SATAN WOULD ONLY ENTER IN HUMAN SOUL THROUGH OUR OWN WILL, NOT AUTOMATICALLY THROUGH CONCEPTION LIKE HE USED TO DO THROUGH ADAM SIN!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368620
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Carmel.

    Quote

    AND I PROVED TO YOU THAT JOHN RECOGNIZED JESUS, AS THE SON OF GOD BEFORE THE DOVE WENT ON JESUS!
    SINCE HE SAID TO JESUS THAT JESUS OUGHT TO BAPTISE HIM RATHER! SO THEY KNEW EACH OTHER!
    AND HOW!
    NOW YOU ARE IN COMPLETE CONFUSION READ:

    John recognised Jesus,but they have never met in person before.The dove is for God to show John, that he REALLY is the anointed one.

    Quote

    John 1:30 This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man,
    WHO IS PREFERRED BEFORE ME: OBVIOUS THE SON OF GOD! AND ALSO WITH THIS STATEMENT JOHN IS CONFIRMING THAT HE IS MICHAEL! THE PRINCE OF HEAVEN!
    BECAUSE HE WAS BEFORE ME OBVIOUS AGAIN HE WAS ,AND IS ALWAYS WITH THE FATHER! NOT CREATED LIKE MICHAEL WAS!

    Why would you bring Micha'el in to this?
    Are you saying that John is also Micha'el?

    Quote

    FROM THE ABOVE CONTEXT, JOHN WAS REFERRING TO MATTERS WITHIN HEAVEN'S REALM, WHEN JESUS, THE WORD THE SON'S SPIRIT, WAS STILL A MYSTERIOUS SPIRIT WITHIN CREATION!!!

    Now you are starting to go off track.
    The Word is the Son: and the spirit of God is in Him
    in full.

    Quote

    SO HE NEVER KNEW THE SON YET. WITHIN HEAVENS REALM!
    33 AND I KNEW HIM NOT; BEFORE THEY MET EACH OTHER FOR THE FIRST TIME GOD KNOWS WHEN ON EARTH AS COUSINS ,BEFORE THEIR MISSION!

    John did not come from heaven,he was born by the will of the flesh. Jesus was born by the will of God.

    Quote

    BUT HE WHO SENT ME, [B] ………AS I SAID OBVIOUS HE NEVER SAW GOD AND WILL NEVER SEE HIM! UNLESS HE DIES!

    It is God who sends John.

    Quote

    JESUS IS THE ONLY IMAGE OF GOD, AND ONLY WITHIN HIM IS GOD REVEALED! JESUS IS THE ONLY TRUE VISIBLE GOD!
    *THE FATHER IS NOT VISIBLE AND HE NEVER WILL BE* EXCEPT IN JESUS

    When Gods plan is finalised on earth; and in the new heavens and earth. God will also dwell on earth,and we shall see His face.We all be as the angels: spirit creatures,and we can see spirit creatures.(rev.21).

    Jesus in the womb met John in the womb,and John in the womb leaped.(luke.1:41).

    Quote

    NONSENSE you are completely lost!
    ONLY MARY WAS CREATED TO CARRY JESUS' SPIRIT IN HER WOMB! THE SON OF GOD! GOD IN FLESH! AND ALSO THE SPOUSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! THEREFORE FULL OF GRACE, AND FULL OF SPIRIT!
    ELIZABETH WAS NOT SINLESS! HOW ON EARTH COULD SHE EVER CARRY BOTH JESUS' AND JOHN'S SPIRIT! YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND!

    Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

    Luke 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

    Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost,
    **even from his mother's womb**.

    Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the
    *babe leaped in her womb*;
    and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

    Quote

    THAT WAS ONLY ONE OBVIOUS REASON WHY JOHN LEAPED!
    I RATHER NOT TELL YOU WHY JOHN LEAPED, BUT YOU SHOULD REALIZE WHY IF YOU REFLECT SERIOUSLY!
    THINK ABOUT IT!
    WHAT WAS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS AND JOHN, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT JESUS DECLARED THAT THERE WAS NO ONE AS PERFECT AS JOHN WHO WAS BORN OF A WOMAN?
    WHO WAS JOHN THEN? SINCE HE WAS MORE PERFECT THEN JESUS! AS A FOETUS!
    IN WHAT JOHN WAS MORE PERFECT THEN JESUS!
    WAS HE REFERRING TO THE PHYSICAL STATE?
    TO THE SPIRIT STATE?
    OR BOTH?

    There is a big difference between Jesus and John.
    Jesus was the Word made flesh.
    Jesus is the creator of all that is created.
    Jesus was born by the will of God.
    Jesus is the Messiah.
    Jesus was spoken of in the old prophesies.
    John was not more perfect than Jesus.
    He only was born six months earlier.
    Born by the will of the flesh.

    wakeup.

    #368624
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 27 2014,00:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2014,01:50)
    So perhaps God just allowed another 5% of Solomon's brain to be used.

    MIKE,

    THIS IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU, YOU PUT GOD IN THE SAME BASKET OF HUMANITY!

    WHATEVER GOD DO HE ONLY DOES IT THROUGH HIS SPIRIT, IN HIS SPIRIT, AND BY HIS SPIRIT, SO IT WOULD BE TOTALLY SPIRIT SUBSTANCE, AND ONLY HE KNOWS HOW, IN WHAT QUANTITY, AND STATE, HE GIVES IT.


    So the same applies with love, and anger, and jealousy, etc?

    Are all these emotions human beings have really just spirits that God inserts into all of us?

    #368625
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 27 2014,10:54)
    Wakeup,

    these  ARE your words:

    Quote
    FOR GOD HAD TO GIVE JOHN THE SIGN OF A DOVE TO IDENTIFY JESUS,THE TRUE MESSIAH.

    AND I PROVED TO YOU THAT JOHN RECOGNIZED JESUS, AS THE SON OF GOD BEFORE THE DOVE WENT ON JESUS!

    SINCE HE SAID TO JESUS THAT JESUS OUGHT TO BAPTISE HIM RATHER! SO THEY KNEW EACH OTHER!


    This is a tough one, guys. Because even when John was imprisoned, he was still sending his own disciples to Jesus to ask if he was the Messiah who was to come.

    I get the feeling that the Spirit showed John certain things, but sometimes he felt like maybe that Spirit was just his mind playing tricks on him, and so he sought the truth of the matter by human means.

    There are quite a few other scriptural examples of the same thing. Many people asked for visible and physical signs so they could know for sure that the Spirit or angel was from God………. and for real.

    I would most likely be the same way if a voice just started talking to me in my mind, and telling me things. I would want some kind of sign that it was for real, and that I wasn't just going crazy. And I would want a sign that it was indeed from God, and not Satan playing tricks to trip me up.

    Anyway, that's my two cents on the matter. Carry on………..

    #368629
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Carmel.

    THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE STATING THAT THE BLOOD WAS AFTER ADAM SINNED.ADAM WAS CREATED WITH BLOOD IN HIS VEINS.

    Quote

    Wakeup,
    What's wrong with you?
    Why don't you reflect enough on what I write, THEN YOU ANSWER!
    READ THIS SCRIPTURE AGAIN:
    11Because the life of the flesh is in the blood:
    THE LIFE OF THE FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD,
    AND THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE, THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING
    SO WHAT KEEPS THE FLESH BODY ALIVE?
    THE SOUL!
    SO THE SOUL IS LOCKED IN THE BLOOD!

    The *life* is in the blood,not the soul.
    Every person has his own soul; and all have blood in their veins.
    Some are bad souls and some are good souls.
    The God fearing are the good souls.
    The spirit of God gives life Yes; **everlasting life**.

    Quote

    and I have given it to you,( THE BLOOD) THAT YOU MAY MAKE ATONEMENT WITH IT UPON THE ALTAR *for your souls*, OK SO THE BLOOD WAS GIVEN FOR THE SOULS! OBVIOUS, SINCE THEY SINNED!NO?

    Do as told;for your own souls sake.
    Those animal sacrifices are to be kept by the jews untill the real sacrifice;which is jesus.
    Jesus blood is Holy blood for God is His Father.
    And He was the Word made flesh.God does not need bulls.
    What he wanted of the jews was obedience.
    There is mercy in Jesus blood.

    Quote

    SO ADAM NEVER HAD BLOOD WHEN HE WAS HOLY IN THE GARDEN, HE WAS IN GOD’S IMAGE ALL SPIRITUAL ELEMENTS, NOTHING EARTHLY, SATANIC!
    BUT AS SOON AS HE SINNED, SATAN ENTERED IN ADAM’S SOUL

    No; this is not in scripture:
    We all dont have satan in us; we are not all possessed.
    But we have the spirit of man in us,that is all the desires of the flesh.The lust of the flesh.
    This is what we must get rid of.
    And this can only be done by seeking God,and be transformed in our minds. To think and do things in our life
    that is pleasing to God.And reject all temptations of the flesh.

    Quote

    SO THE BLOOD WAS SATAN'S PRESENCE! AND THE SOUL WAS LOCKED IN IT, AND SINCE SATAN WAS THE DIRECT OPPONENT WITH GOD TO ACHIEVE MANHOOD, GOD SUPPLIED ADAM WITH THE RESPECTIVE EARTHLY, MORTAL GENERAL PHYSICAL ELEMENTS RELATED TO HIS OPPONENT, SATAN'S CONCEPT!

    No; satan has no part in our body; only if we live and do his will,and do the evil thing,we are walking in his path.
    Satan and his angels are there to tempt us, to follow the lust of the flesh.Satan's world is the material world.
    God's world is the spiritual,which last forever.

    Quote

    GOD IS JUST, AND ADAM REJECTED GOD, AND OPTED TO OBEY SATAN’S DIRECTION! AND HE BECAME HIS IMAGE!
    and the blood may be for an expiation *OF THE SOUL*.
    THEREFORE THE BLOOD WAS GIVEN AFTER THEY SINNED FOR AN EXPIATION OF THE SOUL!

    Eve did not exactly rejected God,but followed satans path
    instead.
    She believed satan rather than God. Because Eve said;
    The fruit looks good,she was tempted by her desire of the
    flesh. And adam got tempted by his wife.Both are one flesh.
    Now all humans are lead by satan doing things his way.
    following the lust of the flesh.

    Quote

    NOW READ:
    LEVITICUS 17:14 For the life of all flesh is in the blood: therefore I said to the children of Israel:

    THE *LIFE* IS IN THE BLOOD; NOT THE SOUL.

    Quote

    YOU SHALL NOT EAT BLOOD of any flesh at all, because the life of the flesh *THE SOUL* is in the blood, and whosoever eateth it, shall be cut off[

    YOU HAVE TWISTED THE WORD HERE.
    THE LIFE IS IN THE BLOOD;NOT THE SOUL.

    Quote

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT SATAN'S SPIRIT OWNED ALL SOULS, THROUGH SIN!

    Not so: only if we follow his way of living;which is the lust of the flesh,and do the unclean thing. He is our god.

    Quote

    NOW THE REASON THAT THEY OFFERED ANIMAL SACRIFICE AND POURED THE BLOOD ON THE ALTAR TO BE BURNED WAS, SO THROUGH THE BURNING OF THE BLOOD, SATAN'S SPIRIT WOULD BE ELIMINATED, AND THE SOULS WHICH OBVIOUS WHERE WITHIN THE BLOOD WOULD BE RELEASED CLEAN FROM SATAN'S SPIRIT, AND WOULD ENTER THROUGH THE SPERM OF MAN IN THE WOMB OF THE WOMAN!

    How did you come to that conclusion?
    All temptations comes from the outside.
    If we follow God,we will not be able to be tempted,because of our love for our God.If we follow our lust we will be tempted big time. Not only by satan,but by his angels also.
    Love the Lord your God with all your soul, and with all your mind,and all your strength,and none of his temptations will
    succeed.

    Quote

    JESUS HAD TO COME IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, THEREFORE ALSO IN FLESH AND BLOOD BUT DIVINE THROUGHOUT, THE ONLY STATE IN ORDER TO BE THE MESSIAH!
    SO JESUS REDEEMED ALL, AND FROM THEN ON, SACRIFICE WAS ABOLISHED, BLOOD COULD BE GIVEN, AND EATEN!

    Jesus came to preach the gospels to men,to shine the light.
    So we can know God and His will. And to give his blood for all mankind.If we believe in Him and follow His commandments,we shall have mercy. Works only is not
    enough to get everlasting life.We need to believe and DO.

    Quote

    SATAN WOULD ONLY ENTER IN HUMAN SOUL THROUGH OUR OWN WILL, NOT AUTOMATICALLY THROUGH CONCEPTION LIKE HE USED TO DO THROUGH ADAM SIN!

    Here is a contradiction to your previous statement.
    You said that satan spirit has become part of our blood.
    And his spirit has to be burned at the sacrifice to eliminate him??.

    PS. Satan and his angels are not inside us unless invited.
    Not every person is possessed.
    But most have lived and followed his system of living.
    The god of this world(babylon) is satan.
    We need to come out of babylon,and enter into
    zion,where there is peace and God fearing.
    All the saints
    and the angels are in Zion,the city of our
    God.Dont touch the unclean thing,seek the Lord.
    follow his commandments,love your neighbour.
    you are then in zion where all the angels dwell.

    wakeup.

    #368648
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Wakeup,

    Last week you were applauding every word that came out of Charles' mouth.

    Not so much these days, huh? :cool:

    #368656
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 27 2014,15:49)
    kerwin,

    i did not. the bible said that


    Jammin,

    Not any of the word for word translations I know of unless it has a comment by the translator.

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