John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,321 through 15,340 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #368207
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 22 2014,12:28)
    BUT THE KIND OF WISDOM SOLOMON WANTED WAS EXTRAORDINARY THEREFORE NOT WORLDLY WISDOM BUT GOD’S, AND HIS WRITING IS A PROOF OF IT! EVEN JESUS MENTIONED SOLOMON’S WISDOM!


    I guess since ALL wisdom that ANYONE has EVER had originally came FROM God, we could say that ALL wisdom is “God's wisdom” – since He is the one who GAVE it to us.

    But no, Solomon was never as wise as God Himself. God simply bestowed more “human wisdom” on Solomon than He generally bestows on everyone else.

    #368228
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2014,10:05)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 21 2014,20:18)
    Proverbs 8:22   The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

    POSSESSED ME.


    The correct translation is “CREATED”, Wakeup.

    Compare the following verses:

    Proverbs 8 KJV
    24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

    25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

    These verses tell us of a TIME when this “wisdom” began to exist.  And the TIME this happened was long ago – before there were fountains of water and mountains.  But there was still a TIME when he was indeed “brought forth”.


    Mikeb.

    Wisdom was brought forth,does not mean wisdom *was not* before he was brought forth.
    God is from everlasting and his wisdom is always with Him.
    There was not a time when God had no wisdom.
    But there was a time when His wisdom was brought forth.

    wakeup.

    #368246
    jammin
    Participant

    why so many verses??? the topic is only john 1.1

    the Word of God is Chrst himself
    :D

    #368248
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 23 2014,22:12)
    why so many verses??? the topic is only john 1.1

    the Word of God is Chrst himself
    :D


    Jammin.

    Yes, Jesus was the Word made flesh.

    wakeup.

    #368257
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2014,18:07)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 23 2014,22:12)
    why so many verses??? the topic is only john 1.1

    the Word of God is Chrst himself
    :D


    Jammin.

    Yes, Jesus was the Word made flesh.

    wakeup.


    W

    NOT ONLY WAS BUT “IS “

    #368265
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2014,04:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 20 2014,21:53)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2014,00:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 18 2014,15:11)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2014,00:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,21:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,04:31)
    The follow up question is about Revelation 19:13.  In that verse, does the phrase “the Word of God” still just refer to an unnamed thing that is poetically being personified as a living being?

    Or does that phrase refer to an actual living person?


    Mike,

    Yes it does but then it states a person is called by the same name as it why means.


    You are wrong on that one, Kerwin.  The Word of God in Revelation 19:13 is a specific person.  He is the same person who is also called the Lord of lords and King of kings.

    The Lord of lords and King of kings is not a “thing” that is merely being personified.  He is a real living person.


    Mike,

    Do you see the phrase “called by the name of the word of God” being equivalent to “bearing the title of the word of God”?


    Absolutely Kerwin…….. why not?  ???

    We could also say that Kal Hatze, the word of the King of Abyssinia, has as one of his NAMES, “The Word of the King”.

    We could also say that Barak Obama has as one of his NAMES, “Mr. President”.

    Agreed?


    Mike,

    I believe name is synonymous with title but some like wakeup seems to disagree.


    But this isn't about Wakeup, Kerwin.

    This is about the one with the name “The Word of God” being a real live PERSON in Revelation 19:13.  Do you agree that the title/name refers to a real live PERSON in that verse?


    Mike,

    I believe that one called by the name of the word of God is a person but I also acknowledge Revelations is a book of prophecy and so it is filled with symbolism.

    #368266
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2014,05:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 22 2014,06:25)
    ……God is not a person…….


    Oops.  I guess not.  I didn't read quite far enough before I answered.  :)

    Yes Kerwin, God has a PERSONALITY, which means He is a PERSON.


    Mike,

    That time it is me that is too strict on applying a definition.

    #368267
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2014,05:05)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 21 2014,20:18)
    Proverbs 8:22   The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

    POSSESSED ME.


    The correct translation is “CREATED”, Wakeup.

    Compare the following verses:

    Proverbs 8 KJV
    24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

    25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

    These verses tell us of a TIME when this “wisdom” began to exist.  And the TIME this happened was long ago – before there were fountains of water and mountains.  But there was still a TIME when he was indeed “brought forth”.


    Mike,

    Bought is a pretty good parallel to the Hebrew as both mean purchase. I have not looked into the forth. It does not disagree with your interpretation as Jesus was bought forth of a woman.

    #368277
    carmel
    Participant

    wakeup[/quote]
    [quote=Wakeup,Jan. 23 2014,07:21][/quote]

    Quote
    God brought forth His Word, and given Him a form like God's own image.

    WAKEUP,

    NOT HIS WORD EXACTLY, ALTHOUGH HE WAS GOD’S WORD, BUT WE  MUST DISTINGUISH IT FROM GOD'S ACTUAL WORDS!
    SO:
    THE WORD

    YES GOD BROUGHT FORTH THE WORD!

    NOTICE IN THE SINGULAR, SIMPLY TO SIGNIFY AN ENTITY!

    PAUL MADE IT CLEAR AND SAID:

    For the word of God is living and effectual, THIS IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST'S POWER  IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    This is confirmed by Jesus :

    John 16: 14 He shall GLORIFY ME ; because he shall RECEIVE OF MINE, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, ARE MINE. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.  

    THIS IS JESUS CHRIST AS THE ONLY GOD IN FLESH

    SO THE FATHER RECEIVED ALL HUMAN ATTRIBUTES OF JESUS, AND ACHIEVED MANHOOD!

    THE FATHER NEVER EXPERIENCED DEATH,PAIN, HUNGER, AND ALL THE REST, BUT IN JESUS CHRIST HE DID

    ALSO: NOT GIVEN Him a form like God's own image.

    GOD NEVER HAD AN IMAGE EVEN NOW! HE IS THE MOST PERFECT GENUINE UNIQUE SPIRIT GOD IS UNKNOWN TO ALL HIS CREATURES, THE REASON THAT HE SENT HIS SON INTO HIS ENEMIES REALM, THE WORLD! TO MANIFEST HIMSELF IN THE WAY ALL HIS ENEMIES BELIEVED THAT IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE, AND ONLY THEY WOULD ACHIEVE IT THROUGH THE ANTICHRIST!

    SO THE WORD MADE FLESH,  

    WAS THE ONLY FORM AND GOD'S EVER IMAGE!

    Quote
    The Word is not God Himself,but something He owns.
    The Holy Spirit is something He owns.
    Wisdom is something He owns.

    WRONG:

    THE WORD WAS GOD!   HIS OWN GENUINE SPIRIT

    THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD!   HIS OWN GENUINE SPIRIT

    WISDOM IS AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD  BUT ALSO HIS SPIRIT

    WHATEVER GOD OWNS IS A SPIRIT!

    READ:

    ISAIAH 11:2 And the SPIRIT of the Lord shall rest upon him: the SPIRIT of wisdom, and of understanding, the SPIRIT of counsel, and of fortitude, the SPIRIT of knowledge, and of godliness.

    3And he shall be filled with the SPIRIT of the fear of the Lord. He shall not judge according to the sight of the eyes, nor reprove according to the hearing of the ears.

    OK CLEAR ENOUGH, SO WISDOM IS BOTH AN ATTRIBUTE AND A SPIRIT OF GOD

    Quote
    It was the Word that was made flesh;not God himself.
    God gave his only begotten Son to the world; not Himself.
    The Word made flesh died on the cross;not God.

    YES : BUT THE WORD WAS GOD IN FLESH FORM, THEREFORE GOD AS MAN,

    NO HE HIMSELF IN HIS SON, MANIFESTED IN HIS SON

    THE FATHER IS A SPIRIT , AND HIS ONLY UNIQUE EMBODIMENT IS THE WORD MADE FLESH, JESUS CHRIST!

    THE WORD MADE FLESH, GOD AS MAN, THE FATHER AS JESUS CHRIST! NOT AS A SPIRIT DIED ON THE CROSS,

    JESUS AS A PERSON WITHIN HIMSELF HAD TWO NATURES, MAN AND GOD!

    THAT WAS SATAN'S ILLUSION, THAT GOD WOULD NEVER ACHIEVE MANHOOD, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT MAN BECAME SATAN'S ABODE through ADAM'S SIN!

    IT HAD TO BE GOD, HIMSELF AS MAN! IN JESUS CHRIST, THE WORD MADE FLESH!

    THE ONLY WAY TO TOPPLE SATAN'S KINGDOM!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368278
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,Jan. 24 2014,03:12][/quote]

    Quote
    NOT ONLY WAS BUT “IS ”

    Terraricca,

    I'm afraid that's A HUGE ERROR

    THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, DIED, AND GLORIFIED AND OWNS A  UNIQUE ETERNAL BODY, WITH THE FATHER, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH!

    NO LONGER WILL FLESH AND BLOOD BE GOD'S WORD EMBODIMENT!

    FOR SURE!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368281
    journey42
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,Jan. 24 2014,04:01][/quote]

    Quote
    Bought is a pretty good parallel to the Hebrew as both mean purchase.  I have not looked into the forth.  It does not disagree with your interpretation as Jesus was bought forth of a woman.

    Kerwin

    Come on, I learn't this in grade 1.
    “Brought” does not mean “buy”

    “Brought” is the past tense of “Bring”
    “Bought” is the past tense of “buy”

    #368284
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 24 2014,02:53)
    [quote=terraricca,Jan. 24 2014,03:12][/quote]

    Quote
    NOT ONLY WAS BUT “IS ”

    Terraricca,

    I'm afraid that's A HUGE ERROR

    THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, DIED, AND GLORIFIED AND OWNS A  UNIQUE ETERNAL BODY, WITH THE FATHER, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH!

    NO LONGER WILL FLESH AND BLOOD BE GOD'S WORD EMBODIMENT!

    FOR SURE!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    charles

    just show me your scripture ,

    here is mine ;JN 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    #368285
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2014,00:24)

    God is from everlasting and his wisdom is always with Him.
    There was not a time when God had no wisdom.


    And that right there should tell you that the “wisdom” in Proverbs 8:22-31 is not LITERAL wisdom, but a PERSON who is metaphorically being called “wisdom”.

    This wisdom was “created as the first of God's works”, “given birth before there were springs of water”, and “born before the mountains were set in place”.

    Those are the phrases used in the more recent English Bibles.  And those phrases don't disagree with the KJV's “brought forth” – they just do a better job of identifying what is meant by the KJV's translation of “brought forth”.

    So the KJV translation is correct in verses 24 and 25 – it's just that you're going out of your way to misunderstand the clear phrase, “Before the mountains were settled, I was brought forth”.

    What does it mean when you say there wasn't a time when God didn't HAVE wisdom, but there WAS a time before He “brought that wisdom forth”?  

    In what way are you thinking God brought His wisdom forth?  What does that mean in your mind?

    #368286
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 23 2014,10:50)
    Mike,

    I believe that one called by the name of the word of God is a person but I also acknowledge Revelations is a book of prophecy and so it is filled with symbolism.


    Okay, but the bottom line is that you realize that the one who rides on a white horse and is called by the name “The Word of God” IS in fact a real, live PERSON?

    Is that correct?

    #368287
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 23 2014,14:46)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2014,07:24)
    God brought forth His Word, and given Him a form like God's own image.


    WAKEUP,

    NOT HIS WORD EXACTLY, ALTHOUGH HE WAS GOD’S WORD, BUT WE  MUST DISTINGUISH IT FROM GOD'S ACTUAL WORDS!


    Amen Charles!  :)

    And then, we must distinguish the Word OF God from God Himself.

    #368288
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike………Tell us, can you separate your words from your “Self”, and your words from who you “ARE” ? Tell us how you do that. This a may be interesting, please enlighten us Mike.

    peace and love…………………………………..gene

    #368294
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2014,10:31)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 23 2014,00:24)

    God is from everlasting and his wisdom is always with Him.
    There was not a time when God had no wisdom.


    And that right there should tell you that the “wisdom” in Proverbs 8:22-31 is not LITERAL wisdom, but a PERSON who is metaphorically being called “wisdom”.

    This wisdom was “created as the first of God's works”, “given birth before there were springs of water”, and “born before the mountains were set in place”.

    Those are the phrases used in the more recent English Bibles.  And those phrases don't disagree with the KJV's “brought forth” – they just do a better job of identifying what is meant by the KJV's translation of “brought forth”.

    So the KJV translation is correct in verses 24 and 25 – it's just that you're going out of your way to misunderstand the clear phrase, “Before the mountains were settled, I was brought forth”.

    What does it mean when you say there wasn't a time when God didn't HAVE wisdom, but there WAS a time before He “brought that wisdom forth”?  

    In what way are you thinking God brought His wisdom forth?  What does that mean in your mind?


    Mikeb.

    Quote

    And that right there should tell you that the “wisdom” in Proverbs 8:22-31 is not LITERAL wisdom, but a PERSON who is metaphorically being called “wisdom”.


    1.*BEFORE* CREATION STARTED.
    2.GOD DID NOT SPEAK.THERE WAS JUST GOD. *ALONE*
    3.THEN HE SPOKE BY BRINGING FORTH A BEING IN HIS
    OWN IMAGE.
    4.WITHIN HIM IS ALL GOD'S WISDOM, AND POWER TO
    CREATE.HE IS CALLED, *THE WORD OF GOD*.WITH ALL
    WISDOM, POWER, AND KNOWLEDGE.

    Quote

    This wisdom was “created as the first of God's works”, “given birth before there were springs of water”, and “born before the mountains were set in place”.


    1.NO CREATURE IS *BORN* IN HEAVEN.
    2.ANGELS ARE CREATED;SIMPLY BROUGHT INTO
    EXISTENCE,IN A SPIRIT BODY.THEY ARE NOT BORN.

    Quote

    Those are the phrases used in the more recent English Bibles. And those phrases don't disagree with the KJV's “brought forth” – they just do a better job of identifying what is meant by the KJV's translation of “brought forth”.


    1.BROUGHT FORTH SIMPLY MEANS,BRINGING INTO
    EXISTENCE. NOT *BORN*
    2.ADAM WAS NOT BORN,BUT BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE
    IN THE FLESH.HEWAS MADE,CREATED BY GOD'S WORD.

    Quote

    So the KJV translation is correct in verses 24 and 25 – it's just that you're going out of your way to misunderstand the clear phrase, “Before the mountains were settled, I was brought forth”.


    1.THAT *I*: HE IS THE WORD, AS A BEING,AND ALL WISDOM
    WITH HIM.(THERE CAN BE NO WISDOM;WITHOUT A
    PERSON OR BEING.
    2.THERE CAN BE NO LOVE WITHOUT A PERSON, OR BEING.
    ONLY THE SPIRIT OF LOVE WHICH IS IN GOD.
    3.THERE IS NO WISDOM WITHOUT THE BEING CALLED GOD.
    4.THERE IS NO WORD WITHOUT GOD.
    5.THERE IS NO HOLY SPIRIT WITHOUT GOD.
    6.THERE IS NOTHING WITHOUT GOD.

    Quote

    What does it mean when you say there wasn't a time when God didn't HAVE wisdom, but there WAS a time before He “brought that wisdom forth”?


    1.IT MEANS THAT WISDOM IS FROM EVERLASTING IN GOD.
    2.HIS WORD ALSO FROM EVERLASTING IN GOD.
    3. UNTILL GOD DECIDED TO CREATE,AND BROUGHT
    FORTH HIS WORD. BY SPEAKING.(SPOKE)
    (NOT GIVE BIRTH).

    Quote

    In what way are you thinking God brought His wisdom forth? What does that mean in your mind?


    1.I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE BEFORE,UNTILL I WAS GIVEN
    KNOWLEDGE.
    2.I KEPT IT TO MY SELF FOR YEARS.
    3.THEN I STARTED TO BRING FORTH THAT KNOW LEDGE
    BY TEACHING OTHERS.

    wakeup.

    #368303
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 23 2014,18:30)
    Mike………Tell us, can you separate your words from your “Self”, and your words from who you “ARE” ? Tell us how you do that.  This a may be interesting, please enlighten us Mike.  

    peace and love…………………………………..gene


    Yes Gene,

    I said the words, “Bite me!” to someone back in '83.

    Do you think those words are still around?  Do you think I'm still WITH those words back in Iowa – even though I've lived in Arizona for the past 13 years now?

    Listen Gene, WORDS don't even exist until they are said out loud.  Before they are SAID out loud, they are THOUGHTS, not WORDS.

    And once you say them out loud, they don't just take on a life of their own and hang out with you.  Once said, they are gone forever……. into the wind.

    The ONLY scenario I can think of where someone's word might be “with him” is in the case of an ECHO.  If I was in a canyon, I could say a word, and that word might linger around for a second or two.

    But other than that, a person's WORDS are never “with them”.

    And the only reason you would imagine such a thing is because you're trying your best to make SENSE out of the very FLAWED translation, “the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

    Try a better translation of John 1:1 – and then you won't have to imagine nonsensical things like this anymore, okay?  :)

    #368311
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 24 2014,07:46)
    wakeup[/quote]
    [quote=Wakeup,Jan. 23 2014,07:21][/quote]

    Quote
    God brought forth His Word, and given Him a form like God's own image.

    WAKEUP,

    NOT HIS WORD EXACTLY, ALTHOUGH HE WAS GOD’S WORD, BUT WE  MUST DISTINGUISH IT FROM GOD'S ACTUAL WORDS!
    SO:
    THE WORD

    YES GOD BROUGHT FORTH THE WORD!

    NOTICE IN THE SINGULAR, SIMPLY TO SIGNIFY AN ENTITY!

    PAUL MADE IT CLEAR AND SAID:

    For the word of God is living and effectual, THIS IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST'S POWER  IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    This is confirmed by Jesus :

    John 16: 14 He shall GLORIFY ME ; because he shall RECEIVE OF MINE, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, ARE MINE. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.  

    THIS IS JESUS CHRIST AS THE ONLY GOD IN FLESH

    SO THE FATHER RECEIVED ALL HUMAN ATTRIBUTES OF JESUS, AND ACHIEVED MANHOOD!

    THE FATHER NEVER EXPERIENCED DEATH,PAIN, HUNGER, AND ALL THE REST, BUT IN JESUS CHRIST HE DID

    ALSO: NOT GIVEN Him a form like God's own image.

    GOD NEVER HAD AN IMAGE EVEN NOW! HE IS THE MOST PERFECT GENUINE UNIQUE SPIRIT GOD IS UNKNOWN TO ALL HIS CREATURES, THE REASON THAT HE SENT HIS SON INTO HIS ENEMIES REALM, THE WORLD! TO MANIFEST HIMSELF IN THE WAY ALL HIS ENEMIES BELIEVED THAT IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE, AND ONLY THEY WOULD ACHIEVE IT THROUGH THE ANTICHRIST!

    SO THE WORD MADE FLESH,  

    WAS THE ONLY FORM AND GOD'S EVER IMAGE!

    Quote
    The Word is not God Himself,but something He owns.
    The Holy Spirit is something He owns.
    Wisdom is something He owns.

    WRONG:

    THE WORD WAS GOD!   HIS OWN GENUINE SPIRIT

    THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD!   HIS OWN GENUINE SPIRIT

    WISDOM IS AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD  BUT ALSO HIS SPIRIT

    WHATEVER GOD OWNS IS A SPIRIT!

    READ:

    ISAIAH 11:2 And the SPIRIT of the Lord shall rest upon him: the SPIRIT of wisdom, and of understanding, the SPIRIT of counsel, and of fortitude, the SPIRIT of knowledge, and of godliness.

    3And he shall be filled with the SPIRIT of the fear of the Lord. He shall not judge according to the sight of the eyes, nor reprove according to the hearing of the ears.

    OK CLEAR ENOUGH, SO WISDOM IS BOTH AN ATTRIBUTE AND A SPIRIT OF GOD

    Quote
    It was the Word that was made flesh;not God himself.
    God gave his only begotten Son to the world; not Himself.
    The Word made flesh died on the cross;not God.

    YES : BUT THE WORD WAS GOD IN FLESH FORM, THEREFORE GOD AS MAN,

    NO HE HIMSELF IN HIS SON, MANIFESTED IN HIS SON

    THE FATHER IS A SPIRIT , AND HIS ONLY UNIQUE EMBODIMENT IS THE WORD MADE FLESH, JESUS CHRIST!

    THE WORD MADE FLESH, GOD AS MAN, THE FATHER AS JESUS CHRIST! NOT AS A SPIRIT DIED ON THE CROSS,

    JESUS AS A PERSON WITHIN HIMSELF HAD TWO NATURES, MAN AND GOD!

    THAT WAS SATAN'S ILLUSION, THAT GOD WOULD NEVER ACHIEVE MANHOOD, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT MAN BECAME SATAN'S ABODE through ADAM'S SIN!

    IT HAD TO BE GOD, HIMSELF AS MAN! IN JESUS CHRIST, THE WORD MADE FLESH!

    THE ONLY WAY TO TOPPLE SATAN'S KINGDOM!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    1.Let *US* make man in our image.
    **Our image**.
    And you say God and His Word has no form.
    Do we have no form?

    2.You say Jesus is God in the flesh;so God died.
    *BUT* the other God in heaven did not die,He is alive and
    well
    What is this riddle???

    3. If Jesus is God in the flesh then he could not have suffered
    as a normal human suffer. He really did not die,
    because he is: he could resurrect himself.
    Was Jesus really dead or just a pretence?

    4.The flesh God, crying to the spirit God: my God, my God.
    He also called himself His God.
    Where is the logic, in all of this abstract talk???

    5.His sacrifice could not be a real sacrifice,because God
    could have deadened all the nerves.We can have no real
    proof to that. Can we?

    6.A pure man died on the cross with nerves and all.
    Not some hybrid God.

    7. The Word was transformed into flesh,real flesh.
    Transformation occured in the womb.From a being into
    a creature.

    8.Trinies always speak in riddles to make the sheep feel
    stupid.And because there is no knowledge in them.

    wakeup.

    #368332
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    just show me your scripture ,

    Terraricca,

    AFTER ABOUT SIXTY YEARS FROM JESUS' GLORIFICATION IN UNION WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST! IN

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH

    MALE AND FEMALE

    TWO TO BECOME ONE!

    FATHER AND SON

    prophesied:

    Genesis 2:24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh. 25 And they were both naked: to wit, Adam and his wife: and were not ashamed

    BOTH NAKED ON THE CROSS

    THE ONLY COVER WHICH GOD HAD, AND IN THE SAME TIME REMAINED IN THE NUDE!

    CONFIRMED

    THE WORD WAS GOD NO LONGER THE WORD! ONLY ONCE HAD TO BE SO TO CREATE ALL AND REDEEM ALL!

    THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH ONLY ONCE WAS IN THAT STATE FOR THE PURPOSE OF REDEMPTION, AND IT IS ACCOMPLISHED!

    HE SAID HIMSELF ON THE CROSS:

    ALL ACCOMPLISHED

    AND ALL HIS BLOOD WAS POURED ENTIRELY ON EARTH TO BAPTISE IT !

    JOHN CONFIRMED :

    Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour out waters upon the thirsty ground, and streams upon the dry land: I will pour out my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thy stock.

    [b] THE ABOVE WAS MANIFESTED IN THE OPEN HEART OF JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOUR GOD AS MAN!

    ONLY ONCE AND ENOUGH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

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