John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 12,101 through 12,120 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #338469
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,Mar. 16 2013,16:39][/quote]

    Quote
    I can not follow you ,you are lost

    Terraricca,

    Its no use in posting scriptures and you don't interprit it.

    It is YOU WHO ARE LOST NOT ME SINCE YOU CANNOT FOLLOW ME!

    THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE.

    THE FIRST EXISTENCE OF EVERY SPECIES IN NATURE.

    EVERY TIME A NEW SPECIES IS CREATED DURING CREATION, IT WAS BEING CREATED BY JESUS' SPIRIT WITHIN THAT SPECIES.

    SO THE SPECIES IS THE FIRSTBORN, NOT JESUS' SPIRIT,

    JESUS' SPIRIT WAS THE WORD AS A SPIRIT DURING CREATION.

    THEN WHEN ALL WAS ACCOMPLISHED,AND IT WAS TIME :

    THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH.

    Peace and love in Jesus.

    Charles

    #338478
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 16 2013,13:38)
    [quote=terraricca,Mar. 16 2013,16:39][/quote]

    Quote
    I can not follow you ,you are lost

    Terraricca,

    Its no use in posting scriptures and you don't interprit it.

    It is YOU WHO ARE LOST NOT ME SINCE YOU CANNOT FOLLOW ME!

    THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE.

    THE FIRST EXISTENCE OF EVERY SPECIES IN NATURE.

    EVERY TIME A NEW SPECIES IS CREATED DURING CREATION, IT WAS BEING CREATED BY JESUS' SPIRIT WITHIN THAT SPECIES.

    SO THE SPECIES IS THE FIRSTBORN, NOT JESUS' SPIRIT,

    JESUS' SPIRIT WAS THE WORD AS A SPIRIT DURING CREATION.

    THEN WHEN ALL WAS ACCOMPLISHED,AND IT WAS TIME :

    THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH.

    Peace and love in Jesus.

    Charles


    charles

    Quote
    It is YOU WHO ARE LOST NOT ME SINCE YOU CANNOT FOLLOW ME!


    I can not follow Satan either ,

    Quote
    THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE.

    this means every creature in heaven and on earth right ???
    except God the father himself

    #338479
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote
    JESUS' SPIRIT WAS THE WORD AS A SPIRIT DURING CREATION.

    this is not what scriptures are saying

    #338485
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    If you are reading something about Jesus and God being “conjoined” from the words of John 17:3, then you are apparently reading your own imagination

    Mike,

    You hate novels, BUT UNLESS I SEND YOU NOVELS YOU NEVER UNDERSTAND A THING,

    WITH EVERY RESPECT

    YOU KNOW UBSOLUTE NOTHING!

    JESUS HAS TAKEN FROM YOU WHAT YOU BELEIVE YOU HAVE

    SO CHEW THE WORDS LETTER BY LETTER AND PRAY!

    THE WORDS:

    NOW THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE

    IN THEMSELVES WERE A DECLARATION THAT A PARTICULAR CONJOINED PROCESS  BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WERE GOING TO BE MANIFESTED.

    MADE KNOWN.

    Hereunder,is:

    Part of  the TEXT ANALYSIS  again.

    NOW as you can see, your interpretation left out all these:

    3778 [e] hautē              αὕτη                             this            
    1161 [e] de                     δέ                             moreover          
    1510 [e] estin                ἐστιν                              is              
    3588 [e]  hē                     ἡ                                   –                
    166   [e] aiōnios           αἰώνιος                       eternal            
    2222 [e] zōē                    ζωὴ                              life,

    Now my uncertainties are more regarding what you left out, than what you added.

    So in order to use:

    is taking in knowledge of. YOU LEFT OUT the EPHASIZED statement OF :

    NOW  THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE

    And on doing this you definitely have left out THE MOST POWERFULL STATEMENT JESUS MADE IN THAT WHOLE CHAPTER.

    NOW HEREUNDER, ALL SCRIPTURES DECLARE THE STATEMENT THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE ??? AND YOU DELIBERATELY REMOVED IT.

    BUT ONE PARTICULAR ARAMAIC DECLARES:Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    “But these things are eternal life:

    OK MIKE IT SAYS BUT THESE THINGS, ARE ETERNAL LIFE !!!

    OBVIOUS REFERRING TO THE DEATH, OF JESUS AND

    GLORIFICATION OF JESUS BY THE FATHER THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!!! THEREFORE  A CONJOINED PROCESS BETWEEN

    THE SON AND THE FATHER THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!RESPECTIVELY

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    And this is eternal life

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    “This is eternal life,

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    And this is life eternal,

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
    This is eternal life:

    International Standard Version (©2012)
    And this is eternal life:

    NET Bible (©2006)
    Now this is eternal life—

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    “But these things are eternal life:

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    This is eternal life

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
    And this is life eternal,

    American King James Version
    And this is life eternal,

    American Standard Version
    And this is life eternal,

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Now this is eternal life:

    Darby Bible Translation
    And this is the eternal life,

    English Revised Version
    And this is life eternal,

    Webster's Bible Translation
    And this is life eternal,

    Weymouth New Testament
    And in this consists the Life of the Ages–

    World English Bible
    This is eternal life,

    Now read the verse before:

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that

    HE MAY GIVE ETERNAL LIFE

    to all whom thou hast given him.

    SO JESUS DECLARED THAT HE HIMSELF WOULD GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.

    HE IS THE SPIRIT OF THE ETERNAL LIFE!

    HE, THE WORD ITSELF IS THE ETERNAL LIFE.

    THEN IN THE FOLLOWING VERSE HE SAID:

    NOW, and this is an EMPHATIC start to the following statement in 17:3, for the simple reason that Jesus is declaring that NOW,no matter what, indeed now, moreover.

    WITH THAT STRONG, FORCEFUL COMMENCEMENT OF THAT VERSE, JESUS  SAID TO HIS ENEMIES, THAT NOTWITSTANDING THE FACT THAT HUMAN IS SINFULL, CONDEMDED, DEAD, IN THIS EVIL WORLD,  I AM A MAN IN ALL THINGS LIKE ALL HUMANS, I CAME INTO THIS EVIL WORLD THROUGH ITS EVIL PROCESS, AND STILL SINLESS THEREFORE THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE  I AM ETERNAL LIFE, SINCE HE IS SINLESS, ONLY SINFULL MEN DIES, JESUS NEVER DIED, JESUS GLORIFIED THROUGH DEATH ITSELF, HE IS SUPERIOR TO DEATH, BUT NOT SINGLE HANDED, WITH THE FULL POWER OF THE FATHER IN HIM,THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    I AM THE SPIRIT OF ETERNAL LIFE.

    JESUS NEVER ACTUALLY DIED. FOR US HE WAS DEAD, BUT HIS BODY  REALLY WAS ALREADY IN THE PROCESS OF SPIRITUALIZATION!

    Then He continued, That they may know thee, SO THROUGH THE PROCESS AND ACHIEVEMENT OF THE ETERNAL LIFE, THAT THEY,HIS ENEMIES, MAY KNOW, WHO IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    SO IT IS NOT THROUGH THE FATHER ONLY, BECAUSE JESUS HIMSELF DECLARED IN THE PREVIOUS VERSE THAT THE FATHER GAVE HIM ALL POWER OVER ALL FLESH, IN ORDER TO DIE, SINCE HE WAS THE WORD MADE FLESH AND WHEN HE  DID SO GLORIFIED AND  UNITED HIMSELF WITH THE FATHER,OBVIOUS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT, SO CONJOINED NEITHER JESUS, NOR THE FATHER, ACHIEVED ETERNAL LIFE SINGLE HANDED.

    SO THE STATEMENT NOW THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE WHEN ONE PERCEIVES ITS DEFINITION, IN THAT CONTEXT, ON ITS OWN IT IS EVIDENTLY PROVEN THAT IT HAD TWO PROCESSES:ONE FROM THE FATHER,AND ONE FROM THE WORD MADE FLESH, JESUS CHRIST.

    JESUS THROUGH HIS DEATH, SOMETHING GOD COULD NOT DO AS A SPIRIT,WAS GLORIFIED BY THE FATHER , IN  HIMSELF.SOMETHING THE SON COULD NOT DO AS MAN.

    THE FATHER GLORIFIED JESUS,THROUGH HIS UNIFICATION  WITH  JESUS CHRIST AND MADE HIM KNOWN AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    JESUS GLORIFIED THE FATHER, IN HIS FLESH VISIBLE BODY THROUGH THE UNIFICATION WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER.
    AND MADE HIM KNOWN AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD,

    John 13:31 When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. CLEAR ENOUGH MIKE???

    32 If God be glorified in him,

    God also will glorify him in himself; CLEAR ENOUGH MIKE???  

    CONJOINED AND THAT IS ETERNAL LIFE ACCOMPLISHED!

    And immediately will he glorify him. NOTICE IMMEDIATELY SO HE NEVER REALLY DIED, OBVIOUS, HE IS ETERNAL LIFE.

    1John 1:2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled,

    OF THE WORD OF LIFE :

    2For the LIFE was manifested;

    and we have seen and do bear witness,

    and declare unto you THE LIFE ETERNAL,

    which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us

    JESUS CHRIST, THE WORD THE SPIRIT OF ETERNAL LIFE WAS WITH THE FATHER ,BECAME FLESH, AND GAVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL BELEIVERS,

    AND IN THE SAME INSTANT GAVE KNOWLEDGE, MADE KNOWN, THAT  CONJCOINED  WITH THE FATHER ,BOTH GOD AND JESUS CHRIST ARE MANIFESTED AS  THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    THE MOST POWERFULL SPIRIT!  DO YOU AGREE???

    IN ONE GLORY

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    Charles

    #338487
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,Mar. 17 2013,02:05][/quote]

    Quote
    this is not what scriptures are saying

    Terraricca,

    FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST:

    WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE YOU ARE REFERRING TO???

    Quote
    I can not follow Satan either

    I know, you are simply in a CROSS ROAD WITHOUT ANY UNDERSTANDING WHICH WAY TO GO. SINCE YOU ARE TALKING IN THAT MANNER. YOU ARE DESPERATE!

    I PRAY FOR YOU SINCE YOU ARE LIKE ME, A SOUL LOCKED IN SATAN'S SUBSTANCE.

    ALSO:

    SINCE  THEY CALLED JESUS CHRIST SATAN, WHY SHOULD I BOTHER TO BE CALLED LIKE WHAT THEY CALLED HIM!!!

    WE ARE ALL LIVING IN SATAN'S PROPERTY, AND WE ARE ALL CONSIDERRED HIS SINFULL, DEADLY, FILTHY, CORRUPTED, CREATURES, CARNALLY.

    ONLY THROUGH OUR SOULS, BY JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY TRUE JUDGE, WE WOULD BE JUSTIFIED.

    AND THE MORE WE EXALT OURSELVES THE MORE WE ARE LOWERRED, AND THE MORE WE LOWER OURSELVES THE MORE WE ARE EXALTED!

    PRAY FOR ME

    peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #338490
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,Mar. 16 2013,16:35][/quote]

    Quote
    this is purely your own fabrication ,you do not know God or his son ,the trinity is still doing is demolition in your mind and soul,

    Terraricca,

    BLA! BLA! BLA!  GET YOU NOWHERE, PROOF, SHOW SCRIPTURES!

    Quote
    God created Jesus as a spirit being ,called THE WORD of GOD  ,

    WHAT A CONFUSION!

    SCRIPTURES PLEASE!

    Quote
    the holy spirit is not used of what we know prior to men creation ,

    Genesis 1:2And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and

    THE SPIRIT OF GOD  MAN WAS NOT CREATED YET

    moved over the waters.

    1Corinthians 12:3……………….And no man can say the Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost.

    4 Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit; HOLY GHOST OF GOD

    5And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord;

    JESUS CHRIST GLORIFIED GOD

    6And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.

    THE FATHER

    7And the manifestation of the SPIRIT is given to every man unto profit.

    8To one indeed, by the SPIRIT, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the SAME SPIRIT;

    9To another, faith in the SAME SPIRIT; [/.B]to another, the grace of healing in [B]ONE SPIRIT;

    10To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the discerning of spirits; to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, interpretation of speeches.

    11But all these things ONE AND THE SAME SPIRIT worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.

    SINCE HE IS GOD

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #338491
    abe
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 16 2013,09:38)

    Quote
    If you are reading something about Jesus and God being “conjoined” from the words of John 17:3, then you are apparently reading your own imagination

    Mike,

    You hate novels, BUT UNLESS I SEND YOU NOVELS YOU NEVER UNDERSTAND A THING,

    WITH EVERY RESPECT

    YOU KNOW UBSOLUTE NOTHING!

    JESUS HAS TAKEN FROM YOU WHAT YOU BELEIVE YOU HAVE

    SO CHEW THE WORDS LETTER BY LETTER AND PRAY!

    THE WORDS:

    NOW THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE

    IN THEMSELVES WERE A DECLARATION THAT A PARTICULAR CONJOINED PROCESS  BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WERE GOING TO BE MANIFESTED.

    MADE KNOWN.

    Hereunder,is:

    Part of  the TEXT ANALYSIS  again.

    NOW as you can see, your interpretation left out all these:

    3778 [e] hautē              αὕτη                             this            
    1161 [e] de                     δέ                             moreover          
    1510 [e] estin                ἐστιν                              is              
    3588 [e]  hē                     ἡ                                   –                
    166   [e] aiōnios           αἰώνιος                       eternal            
    2222 [e] zōē                    ζωὴ                              life,

    Now my uncertainties are more regarding what you left out, than what you added.

    So in order to use:

    is taking in knowledge of. YOU LEFT OUT the EPHASIZED statement OF :

    NOW  THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE

    And on doing this you definitely have left out THE MOST POWERFULL STATEMENT JESUS MADE IN THAT WHOLE CHAPTER.

    NOW HEREUNDER, ALL SCRIPTURES DECLARE THE STATEMENT THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE ??? AND YOU DELIBERATELY REMOVED IT.

    BUT ONE PARTICULAR ARAMAIC DECLARES:Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    “But these things are eternal life:

    OK MIKE IT SAYS BUT THESE THINGS, ARE ETERNAL LIFE !!!

    OBVIOUS REFERRING TO THE DEATH, OF JESUS AND

    GLORIFICATION OF JESUS BY THE FATHER THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!!! THEREFORE  A CONJOINED PROCESS BETWEEN

    THE SON AND THE FATHER THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!RESPECTIVELY

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    And this is eternal life

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    “This is eternal life,

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    And this is life eternal,

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
    This is eternal life:

    International Standard Version (©2012)
    And this is eternal life:

    NET Bible (©2006)
    Now this is eternal life—

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    “But these things are eternal life:

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    This is eternal life

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
    And this is life eternal,

    American King James Version
    And this is life eternal,

    American Standard Version
    And this is life eternal,

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Now this is eternal life:

    Darby Bible Translation
    And this is the eternal life,

    English Revised Version
    And this is life eternal,

    Webster's Bible Translation
    And this is life eternal,

    Weymouth New Testament
    And in this consists the Life of the Ages–

    World English Bible
    This is eternal life,

    Now read the verse before:

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that

    HE MAY GIVE ETERNAL LIFE

    to all whom thou hast given him.

    SO JESUS DECLARED THAT HE HIMSELF WOULD GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.

    HE IS THE SPIRIT OF THE ETERNAL LIFE!

    HE, THE WORD ITSELF IS THE ETERNAL LIFE.

    THEN IN THE FOLLOWING VERSE HE SAID:

    NOW, and this is an EMPHATIC start to the following statement in 17:3, for the simple reason that Jesus is declaring that NOW,no matter what, indeed now, moreover.

    WITH THAT STRONG, FORCEFUL COMMENCEMENT OF THAT VERSE, JESUS  SAID TO HIS ENEMIES, THAT NOTWITSTANDING THE FACT THAT HUMAN IS SINFULL, CONDEMDED, DEAD, IN THIS EVIL WORLD,  I AM A MAN IN ALL THINGS LIKE ALL HUMANS, I CAME INTO THIS EVIL WORLD THROUGH ITS EVIL PROCESS, AND STILL SINLESS THEREFORE THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE  I AM ETERNAL LIFE, SINCE HE IS SINLESS, ONLY SINFULL MEN DIES, JESUS NEVER DIED, JESUS GLORIFIED THROUGH DEATH ITSELF, HE IS SUPERIOR TO DEATH, BUT NOT SINGLE HANDED, WITH THE FULL POWER OF THE FATHER IN HIM,THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    I AM THE SPIRIT OF ETERNAL LIFE.

    JESUS NEVER ACTUALLY DIED. FOR US HE WAS DEAD, BUT HIS BODY  REALLY WAS ALREADY IN THE PROCESS OF SPIRITUALIZATION!

    Then He continued, That they may know thee, SO THROUGH THE PROCESS AND ACHIEVEMENT OF THE ETERNAL LIFE, THAT THEY,HIS ENEMIES, MAY KNOW, WHO IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    SO IT IS NOT THROUGH THE FATHER ONLY, BECAUSE JESUS HIMSELF DECLARED IN THE PREVIOUS VERSE THAT THE FATHER GAVE HIM ALL POWER OVER ALL FLESH, IN ORDER TO DIE, SINCE HE WAS THE WORD MADE FLESH AND WHEN HE  DID SO GLORIFIED AND  UNITED HIMSELF WITH THE FATHER,OBVIOUS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT, SO CONJOINED NEITHER JESUS, NOR THE FATHER, ACHIEVED ETERNAL LIFE SINGLE HANDED.

    SO THE STATEMENT NOW THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE WHEN ONE PERCEIVES ITS DEFINITION, IN THAT CONTEXT, ON ITS OWN IT IS EVIDENTLY PROVEN THAT IT HAD TWO PROCESSES:ONE FROM THE FATHER,AND ONE FROM THE WORD MADE FLESH, JESUS CHRIST.

    JESUS THROUGH HIS DEATH, SOMETHING GOD COULD NOT DO AS A SPIRIT,WAS GLORIFIED BY THE FATHER , IN  HIMSELF.SOMETHING THE SON COULD NOT DO AS MAN.

    THE FATHER GLORIFIED JESUS,THROUGH HIS UNIFICATION  WITH  JESUS CHRIST AND MADE HIM KNOWN AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    JESUS GLORIFIED THE FATHER, IN HIS FLESH VISIBLE BODY THROUGH THE UNIFICATION WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER.
    AND MADE HIM KNOWN AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD,

    John 13:31 When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. CLEAR ENOUGH MIKE???

    32 If God be glorified in him,

    God also will glorify him in himself; CLEAR ENOUGH MIKE???  

    CONJOINED AND THAT IS ETERNAL LIFE ACCOMPLISHED!

    And immediately will he glorify him. NOTICE IMMEDIATELY SO HE NEVER REALLY DIED, OBVIOUS, HE IS ETERNAL LIFE.

    1John 1:2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled,

    OF THE WORD OF LIFE :

    2For the LIFE was manifested;

    and we have seen and do bear witness,

    and declare unto you THE LIFE ETERNAL,

    which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us

    JESUS CHRIST, THE WORD THE SPIRIT OF ETERNAL LIFE WAS WITH THE FATHER ,BECAME FLESH, AND GAVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL BELEIVERS,

    AND IN THE SAME INSTANT GAVE KNOWLEDGE, MADE KNOWN, THAT  CONJCOINED  WITH THE FATHER ,BOTH GOD AND JESUS CHRIST ARE MANIFESTED
    AS  THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    THE MOST POWERFULL SPIRIT!  DO YOU AGREE???

    IN ONE GLORY

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    Charles


    Hi Carmel,

    (Quote)
    JESUS NEVER ACTUALLY DIED. FOR US HE WAS DEAD, BUT HIS BODY REALLY WAS ALREADY IN THE PROCESS OF SPIRITUALIZATION!

    2Jn.1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

    :7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    \
    Num.23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

    abe.

    #338492
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote
    I know, you are simply in a CROSS ROAD WITHOUT ANY UNDERSTANDING WHICH WAY TO GO. SINCE YOU ARE TALKING IN THAT MANNER. YOU ARE DESPERATE!

    I PRAY FOR YOU SINCE YOU ARE LIKE ME, A SOUL LOCKED IN SATAN'S SUBSTANCE.

    :D :D :D it seems you like to take interpretation to all you see and read ,it does not have to be true but so what you are after all entitle to your opinions :D :D :D

    you can not look at God almighty ,and men and NOT looking at Satan the starter of all the controversy,I DO UNDERSTAND YOU CAN BECAUSE YOU DO NOT CARE ,YOU TRY TO SHOW ME YOUR SPIRITUAL FACE WITHIN AND AMONG ALL YOUR OPINIONS AND YOU FIND NORMAL THAT I SHOULD FIND MY WAY IN THAT MUDDY WATER ??? COME ON MEN WAKE UP AND GIVE CLEAR WATER TO DRINK IF YOU ARE SO CONCERN ABOUT MY DESPERATION,

    I AM NOT AT THE CROSS ROAD ,I AM ON THE TRAIL OF LIFE ,FOR A WHILE NOW ,MY BODY MAY BE IN THIS WORLD BUT MY SPIRIT ,HEART AND SOUL ARE NOT OF THIS WORLD ,

    #338493
    terraricca
    Participant

    CHARLES

    Quote
    SINCE THEY CALLED JESUS CHRIST SATAN, WHY SHOULD I BOTHER TO BE CALLED LIKE WHAT THEY CALLED HIM!!!

    WE ARE ALL LIVING IN SATAN'S PROPERTY, AND WE ARE ALL CONSIDERRED HIS SINFULL, DEADLY, FILTHY, CORRUPTED, CREATURES, CARNALLY.

    ONLY THROUGH OUR SOULS, BY JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY TRUE JUDGE, WE WOULD BE JUSTIFIED.

    AND THE MORE WE EXALT OURSELVES THE MORE WE ARE LOWERRED, AND THE MORE WE LOWER OURSELVES THE MORE WE ARE EXALTED!

    PRAY FOR ME

    I ALWAYS PRAY DAILY FOR THOSE WHO LOVE GOD THE FATHER AND THE SON ,

    Quote
    Genesis 1:2And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and

    THE SPIRIT OF GOD MAN WAS NOT CREATED YET

    THAT SCRIPTURE IN 1Corinthians 12:3…DOES TALK ABOUT THE SAME SPIRIT

    1Co 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
    1Co 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

    THIS HOLY SPIRIT IS RELATED TO JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD ALMIGHTY,

    Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
    Ge 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    WHILE IN THIS SCRIPTURE THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS REFERRING TO A CREATOR SPIRIT (THIS COULD BE ANY ANGEL AS WELL ALL ARE WORKING FOR GOD THE MASTER MIND OF ALL CREATION ,

    #338494
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 16 2013,11:38)
    AND IN THE SAME INSTANT GAVE KNOWLEDGE, MADE KNOWN, THAT  CONJCOINED  WITH THE FATHER ,BOTH GOD AND JESUS CHRIST ARE MANIFESTED AS  THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    THE MOST POWERFULL SPIRIT!  DO YOU AGREE???


    No Charles,

    I don't agree that Christ and God together are the only true God.  Jesus doesn't agree either, because he is the one who clearly identified himself as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God”.

    Charles, you and Jesus have the same God.  Jesus is the one who also told you that fact.  Why do you try to elevate Jesus to God Almighty, but not believe the words he himself said?

    It's like you're saying, “As long as I ignore the very words that my Lord Jesus Christ spoke, I can make him into my Almighty God.”  ???

    #338496
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2013,12:34)
    Hmmm…………

    The words are “firstborn of every creature”.  Yet jammin says it must mean something other than the most sensible understanding, because he doesn't WANT Jesus to have been created at all.

    And Gene says it must mean something other than the most sensible understanding, because he doesn't WANT Jesus to have been created before the world began.

    Yet Jesus calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”. (Rev 3:14)  And Paul speaks about when God again sends His “firstborn” into world.  (Heb 1:6)

    But naturally, you both will come up with other things these clear words mean as well, right?  Because neither of you WANTS the most obvious and sensible understanding of those words to be the truth, right?  :)

    What it you're wrong?  What if “firstborn of every creature” means exactly what it sounds like it means?


    Lol. I just read to you what the bible says. The bible didnt say created but firstbrn of all creation. Cmmentaries also agree to me boy. Not all verse in the bible must be undrstood literaly. There are verses that should be undrstood by its cntext.

    #338498
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,13:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2013,15:55)
    thanks gene but mike does not want to believe this truth


    I believe the truth of the Bible, jammin.  Not the truth of the likes of you, who desperately WANTS Jesus to be the Most High God he is the Son and Servant of.

    And not the truth of Gene, who desperately WANTS Jesus to have begun his existence as a human being born of Mary.

    I understand the words “firstborn of every creature” to mean Jesus was the first thing God ever created.  I believe Prov 8:22 confirms my understanding, by saying this wisdom (Jesus) was created as the first of God's works.

    I believe Jesus himself confirms it in Rev 3:14, when he calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”.

    I believe Micah 5:2 confirms it, when it speaks of Jesus' ORIGINS being from days of old.

    You don't have to believe these things, but keep in mind that I'm just reading the words of the scriptures the way they were written – while you and Gene both read those same scriptures in whatever way compliments your own man-made doctrines.


    I dnt need stories mike. If u believe christ was the first thing God ever created then give me version that says that in col1.15. The verse in prov is not talkng about jesus. Read the cntxt well of that verse. Dnt just conclude boy.

    #338499
    jammin
    Participant

    Their nature is God. Their nature is truly God. You and your father are both truly human. U know what , if im going to follow your argument ,your father is truly human and u are not. What are u mike?a fake human? Lol.

    #338503
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,13:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2013,15:55)
    thanks gene but mike does not want to believe this truth


    I believe the truth of the Bible, jammin.  Not the truth of the likes of you, who desperately WANTS Jesus to be the Most High God he is the Son and Servant of.

    And not the truth of Gene, who desperately WANTS Jesus to have begun his existence as a human being born of Mary.

    I understand the words “firstborn of every creature” to mean Jesus was the first thing God ever created.  I believe Prov 8:22 confirms my understanding, by saying this wisdom (Jesus) was created as the first of God's works.

    I believe Jesus himself confirms it in Rev 3:14, when he calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”.

    I believe Micah 5:2 confirms it, when it speaks of Jesus' ORIGINS being from days of old.

    You don't have to believe these things, but keep in mind that I'm just reading the words of the scriptures the way they were written – while you and Gene both read those same scriptures in whatever way compliments your own man-made doctrines.


    Mike……..you are right in Jesus not being God and he is no a .”little” god either, but jamming is right about Jesus not being the first one ever created by God also, so the way I see it two wrongs don't make a right, But two right make a right.

    Any true scholar will tell you that scripture you quoted is not referring to Jesus day of coming into existence just as jamming said to you. But you are so internched in your false belief system you simply can not see that yet. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

    #338504
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 17 2013,07:56][/quote]

    Quote
    I don't agree that Christ and God together are the only true God.

    Mike,

    In the OT.

    God, SINCE HE IS A JUST GOD,

    COULD NEVER BE MANIFESTED AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD

    SATAN WAS PROCLAIMING THAT HE WAS GOD OF THE OT!!! god of the world

    JESUS CAME AS THE TRUTH!!!

    JESUS THROUGH HIS GLORIFICATION BY THE FATHER

    CONFIRMED THAT HE WAS THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER.

    WHICH MEANS THAT THE FATHER, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND JESUS CHRIST ARE UNITED  AS THE MOST POWERFULL SPIRIT UNTILL THE LAST DAY, TILL THE FATHER PUT ALL JESUS CHRIST'S ENEMIES AS HIS FOOTSTOOL.

    THEN THE FATHER WOULD BE ALL IN ALL!

    THE HOLY SPIRIT IS WITHIN US FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT HE WAS JESUS' SOUL, AND HE RECEIVED ALL JESUS' VIRTUES THROUGH HIS UNIFICATION WITH JESUS.

    JESUS CONFIRMED THIS IN:

    John 16:14He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

    Twice he said he shall receive of mine

    because the HOLY SPIRIT was Jesus' soul, and the Father's  spirit was in Jesus' soul. JESUS CONFIRMED AND SAID:

    All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine.through the Holy Spirit which was Jesus' soul

    IT IS PLAIN TRUTH

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #338575
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 17 2013,07:30)
    [/quote]
    [quote=terraricca,Mar. 17 2013,07:30]


    Quote
    I ALWAYS PRAY DAILY FOR THOSE WHO LOVE GOD THE FATHER AND THE SON ,

    Terraricca,

    LIVE THE GOSPEL:

    Mark 2:28 Bless them that curse you,

    AND PRAY FOR THEM THAT ACULMINATE YOU.

    LIKE I DO.

    Quote
    1Co 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
    1Co 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

    [b]THIS HOLY SPIRIT IS RELATED TO JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD ALMIGHTY,

    You know what you are saying?

    Are you confirming that JESUS IS GOD IN FLESH SINCE YOU ADMITTED THAT:

    1Co 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

    THE ABOVE IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST, THE WORDMADE FLESH.???

    Quote
    WHILE IN THIS SCRIPTURE THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS REFERRING TO A CREATOR SPIRIT (THIS COULD BE ANY ANGEL AS WELL ALL ARE WORKING FOR GOD THE MASTER MIND OF ALL CREATION ,

    Yes for sure HE WAS AN ANGEL:

    BUT THE ANGEL OF DARKNESS, LUCIFER, SATAN.

    AND GOD THROUGH THE:

    WORD AS MEDIATOR, IN A TRIUNE GOD:

    THE  FATHER, THE MAIN SOURCE OF LOVE,

    THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE MAIN SOURCE OF POWER,

    AND THE SONTHE MAIN SOURCE OF WISDOM

    FROM GENESIS 1:3 COMMENCED OUR CREATION WITHIN DARKNESS HIMSELF.

    NOW THESE THREE SPIRITS ARE THE SAME

    WHICH IS REFERRED IN 1 Corinthians 12:4:6

    God first created through the word the SPIRITUAL CREATURES.
    SO HE WAS WITHIN ALL ANGELS TO CREATE THE ENTIRE UNIVERSES THROUGH THEM. WHERE HE STILL IS.

    THEN GOD WAS WITHIN THE PREDESTINED EVIL ANGEL TO CREATE OUR MATERIAL VISIBLE CREATION. WHERE HE STILL IS.

    BUT THROUGH BOTH SYSTEMS, THIS WORD BECAME  BOTH SPIRIT (THE FATHER)AND FLESH MAN ( THE SON) SEPARATED WITH A SOUL (THE HOLY SPIRIT) WHILE ON EARTH.

    THEN IMMEDIATELY THROUGH HIS DEATH ( DEAD IN OUR INTELIGENCE ONLY) GLORIFIED AND UNIFIED :

    HIS SOULTHE HOLY SPIRIT WITH THE FLESH BEING OF THE SON IN ONE UNIQUE BEING OF

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH;

    [NOW THAT IS ETERNAL LIFE. SINCE JESUS NEVER ACTUALLY DIED.

    THAT THROUGH THAT PROCESS, OBVIOUS MAINTAINED LIFE IN HIMSELF,THEY, GOD'S ENEMIES MAY KNOW THAT THE FATHER IS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD,(SPIRIT) AND ALSO JESUS CHRIST (FLESH) THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS SENT THROUGH THE FATHER ,FOR THE FATHER, IN THE FATHER,PURPOSELY TO ACHIEVE

    BOTH ETERNAL LIFE,  FOR ALL BELIEVERS

    AND HIS GENUINE IDENTITY

    WHICH ONLY THE SON THE WORD GOD IN FLESH HAS THE AUTHORITY TO WHOM HE WANTS TO REVEAL HIM,

    definitely IN HIMSELF SINCE HE, THE WORD INHERITED ALL ATTRIBUTES OF GOD, AND THE FATHER IS WELL PLEASED TO BE

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH WITHOUT LOOSING HIS ORIGINAL SPIRIT STATE!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #338580
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 17 2013,09:31)
    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 17 2013,07:56][/quote]

    Quote
    I don't agree that Christ and God together are the only true God.

    Mike,

    In the OT.

    God, SINCE HE IS A JUST GOD,

    COULD NEVER BE MANIFESTED AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD

    SATAN WAS PROCLAIMING THAT HE WAS GOD OF THE OT!!! god of the world

    JESUS CAME AS THE TRUTH!!!

    JESUS THROUGH HIS GLORIFICATION BY THE FATHER

    CONFIRMED THAT HE WAS THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER.

    WHICH MEANS THAT THE FATHER, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND JESUS CHRIST ARE UNITED  AS THE MOST POWERFULL SPIRIT UNTILL THE LAST DAY, TILL THE FATHER PUT ALL JESUS CHRIST'S ENEMIES AS HIS FOOTSTOOL.

    THEN THE FATHER WOULD BE ALL IN ALL!

    THE HOLY SPIRIT IS WITHIN US FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT HE WAS JESUS' SOUL, AND HE RECEIVED ALL JESUS' VIRTUES THROUGH HIS UNIFICATION WITH JESUS.

    JESUS CONFIRMED THIS IN:

    John 16:14He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

    Twice he said he shall receive of mine

    because the HOLY SPIRIT was Jesus' soul, and the Father's  spirit was in Jesus' soul. JESUS CONFIRMED AND SAID:

    All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine.through the Holy Spirit which was Jesus' soul

    IT IS PLAIN TRUTH

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    Please can you explain this verse?

    Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them **BY THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH**.

    wakeup.

    #338582
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 18 2013,13:55)

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 17 2013,07:30)
    [/quote]
    [quote=terraricca,Mar. 17 2013,07:30]


    Quote
    I ALWAYS PRAY DAILY FOR THOSE WHO LOVE GOD THE FATHER AND THE SON ,

    Terraricca,

    LIVE THE GOSPEL:

    Mark 2:28 Bless them that curse you,

    AND PRAY FOR THEM THAT ACULMINATE YOU.

    LIKE I DO.

    Quote
    1Co 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
    1Co 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

    [b]THIS HOLY SPIRIT IS RELATED TO JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD ALMIGHTY,

    You know what you are saying?

    Are you confirming that JESUS IS GOD IN FLESH SINCE YOU ADMITTED THAT:

    1Co 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

    THE ABOVE IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST, THE WORDMADE FLESH.???

    Quote
    WHILE IN THIS SCRIPTURE THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS REFERRING TO A CREATOR SPIRIT (THIS COULD BE ANY ANGEL AS WELL ALL ARE WORKING FOR GOD THE MASTER MIND OF ALL CREATION ,

    Yes for sure HE WAS AN ANGEL:

    BUT THE ANGEL OF DARKNESS, LUCIFER, SATAN.

    AND GOD THROUGH THE:

    WORD AS MEDIATOR, IN A TRIUNE GOD:

    THE  FATHER, THE MAIN SOURCE OF LOVE,

    THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE MAIN SOURCE OF POWER,

    AND THE SONTHE MAIN SOURCE OF WISDOM

    FROM GENESIS 1:3 COMMENCED OUR CREATION WITHIN DARKNESS HIMSELF.

    NOW THESE THREE SPIRITS ARE THE SAME

    WHICH IS REFERRED IN 1 Corinthians 12:4:6

    God first created through the word the SPIRITUAL CREATURES.
    SO HE WAS WITHIN ALL ANGELS TO CREATE THE ENTIRE UNIVERSES THROUGH THEM. WHERE HE STILL IS.

    THEN GOD WAS WITHIN THE PREDESTINED EVIL ANGEL TO CREATE OUR MATERIAL VISIBLE CREATION. WHERE HE STILL IS.

    BUT THROUGH BOTH SYSTEMS, THIS WORD BECAME  BOTH SPIRIT (THE FATHER)AND FLESH MAN ( THE SON) SEPARATED WITH A SOUL (THE HOLY SPIRIT) WHILE ON EARTH.

    THEN IMMEDIATELY THROUGH HIS DEATH ( DEAD IN OUR INTELIGENCE ONLY) GLORIFIED AND UNIFIED :

    HIS SOULTHE HOLY SPIRIT WITH THE FLESH BEING OF THE SON IN ONE UNIQUE BEING OF

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH;

    [NOW THAT IS ETERNAL LIFE. SINCE JESUS NEVER ACTUALLY DIED.

    THAT THROUGH THAT PROCESS, OBVIOUS MAINTAINED LIFE IN HIMSELF,THEY, GOD'S ENEMIES MAY KNOW THAT THE FATHER IS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD,(SPIRIT) AND ALSO JESUS CHRIST (FLESH) THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS SENT THROUGH THE FATHER ,FOR THE FATHER, IN THE FATHER,PURPOSELY TO ACHIEVE

    BOTH ETERNAL LIFE,  FOR ALL BELIEVERS

    AND HIS GENUINE IDENTITY

    WHICH ONLY THE SON THE WORD GOD IN FLESH HAS THE AUTHORITY TO WHOM HE WANTS TO REVEAL HIM,

    definitely IN HIMSELF SINCE HE, THE WORD INHERITED ALL ATTRIBUTES OF GOD, AND THE FATHER IS WELL PLEASED TO BE

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH WITHOUT LOOSING HIS ORIGINAL SPIRIT STATE!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    carmel

    you are a twister of words ,scriptures, and truth

    you are a self inflicting, destructive spirit ,

    so I say good by for now ,

    #338673
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 18 2013,01:55)
    NOW THAT IS ETERNAL LIFE. SINCE JESUS NEVER ACTUALLY DIED.


    As usual Charles, scripture disagrees with you:

    Romans 6
    9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

    10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

    Pay attention to the words “again” and “no longer”, Charles. If Jesus didn't truly die, then those words could not have been written about him.

    Also pay attention to verse 10. If Jesus didn't really die “the death he died”, then he doesn't really live “the life he lives”.

    Charles, I believe what the scriptures teach:

    1. There is ONE Almighty God, and His name is YHWH.

    2. Jesus is that God's firstborn Son, and the beginning of the creation by that God. That God created Jesus as the first of His works.

    3. Jesus is not “conjoined” with that God, but instead the messiah, son, servant, prophet, priest, and sacrificial lamb OF that God.

    4. Jesus clearly told us that our God was also his God. So Charles, MY God is the very same God Jesus has. And since the God of Jesus is not some combo being of Father, Son, and Spirit………. NEITHER IS MY GOD.

    You will never convince me that the Son OF God actually IS the very God he is the Son OF. That claim is not only illogical, but also unscriptural.

    peace,
    mike

    #338725
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    As usual Charles, scripture disagrees with you:

    MIke,

    As usual YOU NEED A NOVEL TO GET IT INTO YOUR MIND THAT JESUS' BODY WAS NOT OF THE EARTH BUT FROM HEAVEN.

    SO IF HIS FLESH WAS NOT OF THE EARTH HE COULD NEVER END LIKE ALL FLESH IN THIS WORLD BUT AS GOD'S FLESH.

    SO I AM PREPARING A NOVEL FOR YOU WHICH IS PROVED IN SCRIPTURES THAT JESUS DEATH WAS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TO OURS LIKE ALSO WAS HIS BIRTH.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

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