John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 12,121 through 12,140 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #338834
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Why bother? I don't ever read them anyway.

    #338843
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2013,11:47)

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 18 2013,01:55)
    NOW THAT IS ETERNAL LIFE. SINCE JESUS NEVER ACTUALLY DIED.


    As usual Charles, scripture disagrees with you:

    Romans 6
    9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

    10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

    Pay attention to the words “again” and “no longer”, Charles.  If Jesus didn't truly die, then those words could not have been written about him.

    Also pay attention to verse 10.  If Jesus didn't really die “the death he died”, then he doesn't really live “the life he lives”.

    Charles, I believe what the scriptures teach:

    1.  There is ONE Almighty God, and His name is YHWH.

    2.  Jesus is that God's firstborn Son, and the beginning of the creation by that God.  That God created Jesus as the first of His works.

    3.  Jesus is not “conjoined” with that God, but instead the messiah, son, servant, prophet, priest, and sacrificial lamb OF that God.

    4.  Jesus clearly told us that our God was also his God.  So Charles, MY God is the very same God Jesus has.  And since the God of Jesus is not some combo being of Father, Son, and Spirit………. NEITHER IS MY GOD.

    You will never convince me that the Son OF God actually IS the very God he is the Son OF.  That claim is not only illogical, but also unscriptural.

    peace,
    mike


    the father told us that the son is God

    ebrews 1:8-10

    New Century Version (NCV)

    8 But God said this about his Son:

    “God, your throne will last forever and ever.
    You will rule your kingdom with fairness.
    9 You love right and hate evil,
    so God has chosen you from among your friends;
    he has set you apart with much joy.” Psalm 45:6–7

    10 God also says,

    “Lord, in the beginning you made the earth,
    and your hands made the skies.

    #338863
    terraricca
    Participant

    JAMMIN

    the father told us that the son is “A” God NOT GOD THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER

    8 But God said this about his Son:

    “God, your throne will last forever and ever.
    You will rule your kingdom with fairness.

    #338864
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 21 2013,00:12)
    JAMMIN

    the father told us that the son is “A” God NOT GOD THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER

    8 But God said this about his Son:

    “God, your throne will last forever and ever.
      You will rule your kingdom with fairness.


    the father is also a God? did you know that?
    you want verse?

    Psalm 86:15
    But, Lord, you are a God who shows mercy and is kind. You don’t become angry quickly. You have great love and faithfulness.

    Jeremiah 23:23
    “I am a God who is near,” says the Lord. “I am also a God who is far away.

    btw are you a HUMAN or human?

    is there a difference between the word a HUMAN and HUMAN?

    lol

    your nature is human boy. it does not matter if you put a letter A bec you are still human by nature

    #338870
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2013,19:20)

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 21 2013,00:12)
    JAMMIN

    the father told us that the son is “A” God NOT GOD THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER

    8 But God said this about his Son:

    “God, your throne will last forever and ever.
      You will rule your kingdom with fairness.


    the father is also a God? did you know that?
    you want verse?

    Psalm 86:15
    But, Lord, you are a God who shows mercy and is kind. You don’t become angry quickly. You have great love and faithfulness.

    Jeremiah 23:23
    “I am a God who is near,” says the Lord. “I am also a God who is far away.

    btw are you a HUMAN or human?

    is there a difference between the word a HUMAN and HUMAN?

    lol

    your nature is human boy. it does not matter if you put a letter A bec you are still human by nature


    This ,a, letter is to show you that THE GOD his not the same god as a god ,

    Just like I may be a human but I am not you who his also human got it ???

    #338883
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 20 2013,15:06][/quote]

    Quote
    Why bother?  I don't ever read them anyway.

    Mike,

    I TOLD YOU THEY ARE NOT JUST FOR YOU!

    I KNOW THAT YOU ARE TERRORIZED FROM THE TRUTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #338903
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 21 2013,03:42)
    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 20 2013,15:06][/quote]

    Quote
    Why bother?  I don't ever read them anyway.

    Mike,

    I TOLD YOU THEY ARE NOT JUST FOR YOU!

    I KNOW THAT YOU ARE TERRORIZED FROM THE TRUTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Quote
    I KNOW THAT YOU ARE TERRORIZED FROM THE TRUTH!

    in my case ;years ago like 50 years ago I WAS TERRORIZED AT THE IDEA THAT WHEN YOU REACH YOUR OLDER AGE ,TO COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT YOU HAVE WORKED FOR NOTHING AND ARE LEFT EMPTY INSIDE,AND FAR FROM GOD AND HIS SON,
    AND THE TRUTH THEIR OFF ,

    I know now that I did not fail in my faith and the truth their off ,

    and find myself full by the true grace of God almighty and his son Jesus Christ .because of what I did ;
    Ps 4:5 Offer right sacrifices
    and trust in the LORD.

    Ps 9:10 Those who know your name will trust in you,
    for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you.

    #338921
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 19 2013,11:47][/quote]

    Quote
    Pay attention to the words “again” and “no longer”, Charles.  If Jesus didn't truly die, then those words could not have been written about him.

    Mike,

    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING:

    SO JESUS’ FLESH WAS NOT FLESH LIKE OURS, BUT SPIRIT IN ITSELF.

    AND THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE!

    SO HIS FLESH NEVER DIED LIKE OURS! BUT CONTINUED INTO SPIRITUALIZATION!

    Jesus came forth from the FATHER NOT FROM THIS WORLD, SPIRIT HE DEMONSTRATED THIS ON MOUNT TABOR; HE WENT BACK TO THE FATHER AS A SPIRIT AND FLESH BEING WITHOUT ANY KIND OF POSTPONEMENT. THEREFORE HE NEVER DIED LIKE WE DO.

    IF HE DID, IT MEANT THAT AS SOON AS JESUS DIED, IT MEANT CORROSION STARTED, LIKE OUR BODY DO.

    NOW DO YOU BELIEVE THEN THAT:

    JESUS CHRIST  THE SON OF GOD!

    THE WORD GOD IN FLESH WHO IS SUPERIOR TO DEATH EXPERIENCED ANY KIND OF CORROSION???

    SO HE DIED FOR US, BUT NOT LIKE WE DO, HE DIED HIS OWN UNIQUE DEATH WHICH IS CALLED GLORIFICATION THROUGH DEATH

    Quote
    10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.[/color]

    Also pay attention to verse 10.  If Jesus didn't really die “the death he died”, then he doesn't really live “the life he lives”.

    HERE IT IS;

    If Jesus didn't really die “the death he died”,HIS SPIRITUALIZATION KIND OF DEATH

    then he doesn't really live “the life he lives IN HIS SPIRITUALIZED FLESH BODY, AND HIS CARNALIZED SOUL, THE HOLY SPIRIT, UNITED AS ONE BEING OF BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT GLORIFIED AS THE ETERNAL LIFE;

    SO WE ALL KNOW THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST.

    EVEN US BELIEVERS WOULD NEVER REALLY DIE MIKE, WE WOULDN’T NEVER HAVE THE LEAST OF THE LEAST EXPERIENCE OF DEATH THIS IS CONFIRMED BY JESUS:

    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING

    John 8:51 Amen, amen I say to you: If any man keep my word, HE SHALL NOT SEE DEATH FOR EVER.

    IT WOULD BE THE LONGEST POST SCRIPTURAL TO PROVE TO ALL PEOPLE ON HEAVEN NET THAT JESUS NEVER DIED LIKE WE DO, NEVER EXPERIENCED ANY KIND OF COORSION

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #338996
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 21 2013,20:38)
    Mike,

    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING:

    SO JESUS’ FLESH WAS NOT FLESH LIKE OURS, BUT SPIRIT IN ITSELF.

    AND THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE!

    SO HIS FLESH NEVER DIED LIKE OURS! BUT CONTINUED INTO SPIRITUALIZATION!

    Jesus came forth from the FATHER NOT FROM THIS WORLD, SPIRIT HE DEMONSTRATED THIS ON MOUNT TABOR; HE WENT BACK TO THE FATHER AS A SPIRIT AND FLESH BEING WITHOUT ANY KIND OF POSTPONEMENT. THEREFORE HE NEVER DIED LIKE WE DO.

    Hi Carmel. I have not been following this thread but.. are you denying “the flesh”?

    What you are saying sounds Gnostic?

    #338997
    2besee
    Participant

    Are you a Trinitarian?

    #339000
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Charles,

    Jesus said that not all will taste death. But Paul says that Jesus tasted death for all of us.

    #339001
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2013,03:54)
    the father told us that the son is God


    The Father did tell us that the Son would be called a mighty god. Satan is also a mighty god, jammin.

    And in Hebrews 1, Paul attributes a Psalm to Jesus, in which the subject is called “god”. But also notice that verse 9 speaks about the God OF that other god.

    Surely God Almighty doesn't have a God of His own, right? But Jesus does, right? In fact, Jesus told us that our God was also his God, right?

    I worship the God OF Jesus, jammin. You worship that same God ALONG WITH His servant, Jesus Christ.

    #339130
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    What you are saying sounds Gnostic?

    2Besee,

    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING:

    SO JESUS HAD FLESH!

    JESUS WAS THE WORD MADE FLESH,THE TRIUNE GOD IN JESUS, THE GODHEAD BODILY.

    THEREFORE JESUS' FLESH WAS UNIQUE! IT WAS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER. THEREFORE GOD’S AND NON MORTAL,AT ALL TIMES TO MAINTAIN ETERNAL LIFE.

    IF I ASKED YOU IF JESUS' FLESH WAS LIKE OURS?

    YOUR ANSWER DEFINITELY IT WOULD BE NO AND TO STRENGTHEN MY POINT I TELL YOU THIS:

    IF IT WAS LIKE OURS HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THE MESSIAH!

    BECAUSE OUR FLESH AND BLOOD CORRODES DUE TO ADAM'S SIN.

    JESUS' FLESH BODY WAS SINLESS AND NEVER CORRODED,BUT CONTINUED THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS AS PROOF THAT HE WAS ETERNAL LIFE

    1John1:2For the life was manifested; and we have seen and do bear witness, and declare unto you

    THE LIFE ETERNAL, which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us

    SO JESUS, THE LIFE ETERNAL WAS WITH THE FATHER AND CONTINUED WITHOUT ANY KIND OF ENDING,TO MAINTAIN THE PROCESS OF ETERNAL LIFE.

    NOW ANSWER :CAN JESUS DECLARE THAT HE IS LIFE, ETERNAL LIFE AND IN THE SAME TIME, HE DIES AND REMAIN ETERNAL ?

    John1:4 In him was life,………..

    HOW COULD HE BE THE LIFE, AND IN THE SAME TIME COMPLETELY DEAD.

    SO SINCE THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, IT WAS CLEAR ENOUGH THAT ALTHOUGH THE FLESH DEMONSTRATED THAT HE WAS DEAD, IN FACT HE WAS NOT DEAD , HE DIED FOR US BUT IN FACT HE WAS IN THE PROCESS OF SPIRITUALIZATION, THROUGH GLORIFICATION IN THAT MOMENT OF CONTACT WITH SATAN [B]THE SPIRIT OF DEATH.

    THE SPIRITUALIZATION PROCESS STARTED EXACTLY WHEN HE SAID:

    NOW IS THE SON OF MAN GLORIFIED

    John 13:27 And after the morsel, Satan entered into him. And Jesus said to him: That which thou dost,

    DO QUICKLY. 31When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    NOW IS THE SON OF MAN GLORIFIED,AND GOD IS GLORIFIED IN HIM.
     

    WHAT WAS THE RUSH FOR?  OBVIOUS BECAUSE FROM THAT MOMENT JESUS COMMENCED HIS SPIRITUALIZATION OF HIS BODY. HIS UNIQUE DEATH!!!

    SO IT IS A PROOF THAT JESUS HAD FLESH, BUT SINCE IT CAME FROM THE FATHER, AND NOT OF THE EARTH, MORTAL, HE COULD START THE PROCESS OF SPIRITUALIZATION OF HIS BODY IN ANY MODE HE FEELS FIT.

    THE EVENT ON MOUNT TABOR IS THE MOST EVIDENT OF THIS, AMONG OTHERS.

    THEN  HE MANIFESTED THIS PREMATURE TRANSFORMATION THROUGH HIS BLOODY PERSPIRATION IN THE GARDEN! THE PASSION WAS FUNDAMENTAL IN ORDER TO HIDE HIS DIVINE IDENTITY FROM SATAN,OTHERWISE HE WOULDN’T HAVE ENTERED JESUS’SOUL TO TAKE IT.

    OUR FLESH IS ALSO SPIRIT, BUT EVIL SPIRIT TRNASFORMED INTO MORTAL MATTER,DEU TO THE SIN OF ADAM.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES

    #339145
    2besee
    Participant

    Carmel, okay. I'll get back to this later.

    #339147
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 23 2013,07:24)

    Quote
    What you are saying sounds Gnostic?

    2Besee,

    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING:

    SO JESUS HAD FLESH!

    JESUS WAS THE WORD MADE FLESH,THE TRIUNE GOD IN JESUS, THE GODHEAD BODILY.

    THEREFORE JESUS' FLESH WAS UNIQUE! IT WAS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER. THEREFORE GOD’S AND NON MORTAL,AT ALL TIMES TO MAINTAIN ETERNAL LIFE.

    IF I ASKED YOU IF JESUS' FLESH WAS LIKE OURS?

    YOUR ANSWER DEFINITELY IT WOULD BE NO AND TO STRENGTHEN MY POINT I TELL YOU THIS:

    IF IT WAS LIKE OURS HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THE MESSIAH!

    BECAUSE OUR FLESH AND BLOOD CORRODES DUE TO ADAM'S SIN.

    JESUS' FLESH BODY WAS SINLESS AND NEVER CORRODED,BUT CONTINUED THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS AS PROOF THAT HE WAS ETERNAL LIFE

    1John1:2For the life was manifested; and we have seen and do bear witness, and declare unto you

    THE LIFE ETERNAL, which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us

    SO JESUS, THE LIFE ETERNAL WAS WITH THE FATHER AND CONTINUED WITHOUT ANY KIND OF ENDING,TO MAINTAIN THE PROCESS OF ETERNAL LIFE.

    NOW ANSWER :CAN JESUS DECLARE THAT HE IS LIFE, ETERNAL LIFE AND IN THE SAME TIME, HE DIES AND REMAIN ETERNAL ?

    John1:4 In him was life,………..

    HOW COULD HE BE THE LIFE, AND IN THE SAME TIME COMPLETELY DEAD.

    SO SINCE THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, IT WAS CLEAR ENOUGH THAT ALTHOUGH THE FLESH DEMONSTRATED THAT HE WAS DEAD, IN FACT HE WAS NOT DEAD , HE DIED FOR US BUT IN FACT HE WAS IN THE PROCESS OF SPIRITUALIZATION, THROUGH GLORIFICATION IN THAT MOMENT OF CONTACT WITH SATAN [B]THE SPIRIT OF DEATH.

    THE SPIRITUALIZATION PROCESS STARTED EXACTLY WHEN HE SAID:

    NOW IS THE SON OF MAN GLORIFIED

    John 13:27 And after the morsel, Satan entered into him. And Jesus said to him: That which thou dost,

    DO QUICKLY. 31When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    NOW IS THE SON OF MAN GLORIFIED,AND GOD IS GLORIFIED IN HIM.
     

    WHAT WAS THE RUSH FOR?  OBVIOUS BECAUSE FROM THAT MOMENT JESUS COMMENCED HIS SPIRITUALIZATION OF HIS BODY. HIS UNIQUE DEATH!!!

    SO IT IS A PROOF THAT JESUS HAD FLESH, BUT SINCE IT CAME FROM THE FATHER, AND NOT OF THE EARTH, MORTAL, HE COULD START THE PROCESS OF SPIRITUALIZATION OF HIS BODY IN ANY MODE HE FEELS FIT.

    THE EVENT ON MOUNT TABOR IS THE MOST EVIDENT OF THIS, AMONG OTHERS.

    THEN  HE MANIFESTED THIS PREMATURE TRANSFORMATION THROUGH HIS BLOODY PERSPIRATION IN THE GARDEN! THE PASSION WAS FUNDAMENTAL IN ORDER TO HIDE HIS DIVINE IDENTITY FROM SATAN,OTHERWISE HE WOULDN’T HAVE ENTERED JESUS’SOUL TO TAKE IT.

    OUR FLESH IS ALSO SPIRIT, BUT EVIL SPIRIT TRNASFORMED INTO MORTAL MATTER,DEU TO THE SIN OF ADAM.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES


    Carmel.

    Please concentrate;

    John1:4. FOR **IN HIM** WAS LIFE.

    1.WHO IS IN HIM?
    2.WHO WAS SPEAKING,DURING HIS PREACHINGS?
    3.WHO RESURRECTED HIM FROM THE DEAD?
    4.DID NOT HE, THAT WAS INSIDE HIM;LEFT HIM FOR A MOMENT? WHEN JESUS CRIED,''ELI,ELI LAMA,SABACHTHANI''?

    I (Jesus) CAN NOT DO ANYTHING BY MYSELF;WHAT I HEAR HIM (God) SPEAK; THAT I SAY.
    WHAT I SEE HIM (God) DO; THAT I DO.

    GOD IN JESUS IS LIFE.

    wakeup.

    #339170
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Mar. 23 2013,10:43][/quote]

    Quote
     John1:4. FOR **IN HIM** WAS LIFE.
     

    Wakeup,

    The above is the best way of discovering the truth, and that's what I  always expected from someone on heaven net.

    Instead they opted for confrontation, which is not for the love of Jesus Christ, the truth

    Now you said: concentrate which I already did regarding that statement.But to be honest since as I said I want to discover the truth as soon as I read your post

    MORE LIGHT ENTERED IN ME

    SO LIFE WAS IN HIM TOTALLY NOT JUST THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER ONLY!

    BUT IN HIS SOUL AS WELL THE HOLY SPIRIT

    BECAUSE THE FATHER CAN ONLY ABIDE IN HIMSELF, THEREFORE

    THE FATHER WAS IN JESUS' SOUL, THE HOLY SPIRIT

    NOW THAT LEAVES THE FLESH BODY OF JESUS:

    SO READ HEREUNDER AND YOU CONCENTRATE EVEN MORE THIS TIME

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself,

    so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself:

    GOD HAD GIVEN THE SON TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF.

    OBVIOUS: THE SON IS A MAN, IN FLESH AND BLOOD NO???

    SO JESUS' BODY ALTHOUGH IT WAS IN FLESH AND BLOOD,

    IT HAD LIFE IN ITSELF.

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING

    SO HIS BODY COULD NEVER DIE LIKE OURS SINCE IT HAD THE LIFE OF GOD, OR MORE PRECISE, THE SPIRIT OF GOD, AS THE WORD MADE FLESH

    SO THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING SINCE IT WAS STILL COMPOSED FROM GOD'S SPIRIT, THEREFORE GOD'S OWN SUBSTANCE WHICH CAME FROM HEAVEN!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #339184
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 23 2013,18:44)
    [quote=Wakeup,Mar. 23 2013,10:43][/quote]

    Quote
     John1:4. FOR **IN HIM** WAS LIFE.
     

    Wakeup,

    The above is the best way of discovering the truth, and that's what I  always expected from someone on heaven net.

    Instead they opted for confrontation, which is not for the love of Jesus Christ, the truth

    Now you said: concentrate which I already did regarding that statement.But to be honest since as I said I want to discover the truth as soon as I read your post

    MORE LIGHT ENTERED IN ME

    SO LIFE WAS IN HIM TOTALLY NOT JUST THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER ONLY!

    BUT IN HIS SOUL AS WELL THE HOLY SPIRIT

    BECAUSE THE FATHER CAN ONLY ABIDE IN HIMSELF, THEREFORE

    THE FATHER WAS IN JESUS' SOUL, THE HOLY SPIRIT

    NOW THAT LEAVES THE FLESH BODY OF JESUS:

    SO READ HEREUNDER AND YOU CONCENTRATE EVEN MORE THIS TIME

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself,

    so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself:

    GOD HAD GIVEN THE SON TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF.

    OBVIOUS: THE SON IS A MAN, IN FLESH AND BLOOD NO???

    SO JESUS' BODY ALTHOUGH IT WAS IN FLESH AND BLOOD,

    IT HAD LIFE IN ITSELF.

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING

    SO HIS BODY COULD NEVER DIE LIKE OURS SINCE IT HAD THE LIFE OF GOD, OR MORE PRECISE, THE SPIRIT OF GOD, AS THE WORD MADE FLESH

    SO THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING SINCE IT WAS STILL COMPOSED FROM GOD'S SPIRIT, THEREFORE GOD'S OWN SUBSTANCE WHICH CAME FROM HEAVEN!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel; yes, the life is God in him.
    Jesus was born of God, he was made flesh.
    He was born without sin.
    Life can only come from the life giver.

    wakeup.

    #339199
    2besee
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    Okay so I read your post. I think I will just keep reading, for now!

    #339220
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 22 2013,12:41][/quote]

    Quote
    But Paul says that Jesus tasted death for all of us.

    Mike,

    I agree,but what bothers me, WHY PAUL DIDN'T USE A CLEAN PHRASE SUCH AS

    HE DIED LIKE US OR HE DIED ALSO,

    INSTEAD HE ALWAYS USED A TERM TO HAVE AT LEAST TWO MEANINGS.

    FOR INSTANCE:

    HE TASTED DEATH, IN NO WAY IT IS CLEAR ENOUGH THAT HE DIED THE SAME DEATH AS OURS!

    WHEN YOU TASTE SOMETHING IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU ATE ALL THE FOOD WHICH YOU TASTED.

    SO JESUS ALTHOUGH HE TASTED DEATH IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT HE DIED COMPLETELY.

    WHEN JESUS DIED PEOPLE CAME BACK TO LIFE. THEY CAME OUT FROM GRAVES.

    SO DEATH(SATAN) WAS NO LONGER POWERFUL, BUT LIFE (JESUS)HAD CONQUERED OVER IT FOR EVER.

    AND IF DEATH, SATAN, WAS NOT POWERFUL ON JESUS' DEATH,IT MEANS THAT HE LOST HIS POWER ON WHAT SUPPOSE TO BE THE DEATH OF JESUS, BUT INSTEAD IT WAS THE LIFE OF JESUS EXACTLY ON HIS CONTACT WITH JESUS.

    SO THE PROCESS OF SPIRITUALIZATION FUNCTIONED.

    THAT MEANS MIKE,

    THAT YOU AND ME WILL NEVER TASTE DEATH, NEVER HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE OF SATAN, BUT WE SIMPLY SHIFT OURSELVES FROM THIS SATANIC DEATH KINGDOM TO JESUS' ETERNAL KINGDOM.SINCE WE BELEIVE IN JESUS.

    MIKE, DO ME A FAVOUR REFLECT AND TELL ME  BY WHAT CREDENTIALS SATAN HAD THE RIGHT AND AUTHORITY TO TAKE SOULS OUT OF HUMAN BODIES,THEREFORE HUMANS DIED.

    NOW JESUS OVERTHROWN ALL OF THEM.

    NOW, SATAN REALIZED THAT WHEN HE TOOK JESUS SOUL HE TOOK IT WITHOUT EVEN REALIZING THAT HE SHOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN IT, WHEN HE WENT TO HELL WITH JESUS'SOUL AND  WAS TESTED BY FIRE!

    2 SAMUEL 22:31 God, his way is immaculate, the word (JESUS) of the Lord is tried by fire: he is the shield of all that trust in him.

    1Cornthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work,

    ( INCLUDING THE MAN JESUS ,TO BE IN ALL THNGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN)

    of what sort it is.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #339234
    terraricca
    Participant

    carmel

    Quote
    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING:

    this is true ,but it depend how and why,

    because if we lose our flesh then we also lose the power to worship our true GOD in the way he want us to do it ,so in this case the flesh becomes very important ,but yes it is not the flesh that will save us but the actions spirit from within it ,that either produced sin or righteousness

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