John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 12,061 through 12,080 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #337350
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 03 2013,12:32)
    [/quote]
    [quote=terraricca, Mar. 03 2013,12:32]


    Quote
    I have answered you but you have to start thinking and understand what I am saying to you ,

    THE SAME THING THAT YOU HAVE TO DO ALSO, AND EVEN MORE SINCE YOU HAVE TO REFLECT AND PRAY!!!

    Quote
    and you should know that by using a couple parts of a few verses does not make your reasoning true to scriptures,

    UNLESS YOU SPECIFY EACH PART, AND CONTRADICT ME, BY PRODUCING FEW VERSES FROM SCRIPTURES, IT SHOWS THAT YOU ARE NOT SURE OF YOURSELF, IT IS NOT THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS IN YOU, BUT THROUGH THE EVIL SPIRIT,AND YOU WOULD BE  TELLING LIES, NOT THE TRUTH. YOU ARE  SIMPLY BEING PROUD, AND YOU ARE AIMING TO CONFRONT ME INSTEAD ,AND THAT’S NOT FOR JESUS’ LOVE!!!
    IT’S NO USE THAT I KEEP ON SAYING TO YOU REFLECT IN ORDER TO ALLOW THE HOLY SPIRIT TO WORK IN YOU!

    Quote
    and I can tell you that you are wrong in thinking God needs to glorify him for men ,God does not need anything that men as or anyone else,

    YOU ARE WRONG. I NEVER SAID THAT GOD NEEDS SOMETHING!!

    GOD DOESN’T NEED ANYTHING. BUT THAT  DOESN’T MEAN HE HAS EVERYTHING! FOR INSTANCE, BEFORE THE WORD BECAME FLESH,GOD NEVER HAD FLESH! GOD NEVER WAS AWARE,AND OWNED THE ATTRIBUTES OF MAN. BUT HE GOT ALL THESE IN JESUS, THE WORD.

    GOD GLORIFIED IN JESUS, THE WORD,FOR HIS CREATURES SAKE. SO THEY COULD SEE HIM, AND BE WITH HIM, BUT ONLY THROUGH JESUS,SINCE  HE COULDN’T IN THE SAME TIME REMAIN A SPIRIT CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT HIS SPIRIT IS UNIQUE,AND HIS CREATURES COULD BE DESTROYED IMMEDIATELY THEY LOOK AT HIM. SO HE ACHIEVED  THIS IN THE WORD HIS SON, HIS OWN GENUINE SPIRIT!

    GOD IS LOVE, AND HE LACKED TO BE LOVED!!! Read scriptures it’s clear enough that GOD needed to be loved, AND UNLESS HE IS LOVED BY ALL HIS ENTIRE CREATURES HE WOULD NOT ACHIEVE HIS KINGDOM! MADE OF BOTH INVISIBLE AND VISIBLE CREATURES.

    Jesus manifested  GOD’S THIRST for love from man:

    Three times he asked Peter whether he loves Him!!!

    READ:

    Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me,

    ( NOTICE HE USED THE WORD IF KNOWING THAT HUMANS WOULD NEVER REALLY LOVE HIM!!!

    he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him

    ONLY THOSE WHO ARE, THE GENERATION OF HEAVEN PURPOSELY SENT TO DO GOD’S WILL, THE SAINTS.BUT THOSE WHO ARE FROM HELL, THE GENERATION OF THE EARTH US LOVES THE FLESH, AND THE WORLD.

    1John 2:15 Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the charity of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, is the concupiscence of the flesh, and the concupiscence of the eyes, and the PRIDE of life, which is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    More to come:

    Peace And love in Jesus

    Charles

    #337351
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Christ is his first creation

    Terraricca

    THAT’S A HUGE LIE:

    READ AND REFLECT:

    John8:42 ………………..For from God I PROCEEDED AND CAME; for I came not of myself, but he sent me:

    JOHN 17:8 ………………….and have known in very deed that I CAME OUT FROM YOU, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

    SO JESUS WAS CLEAR IN BOTH CASES, FIRST HE SAID:

    for I proceeded forth and came from GOD,

    and

    I came out from you.

    TO MAKE US AWARE THAT HE WAS NOT CREATED, HE WAS ETERNALLY IN GOD'S SPIRIT, AS THE WORD.

    THEN HE SAID THAT HE WAS SENT TO DO GOD'S WILL AS  THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH! THE GODHEAD IN JESUS! GOD IN FLESH!

    Quote
    ,Christ his the son and

    the WORD of God ,

    YOU HAVE TO GET IT INTO YOUR MIND THAT THE WORD  IS GOD’S FUNCTION IN HIS SON,THE GODHEAD IN FLESH!!!

    THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT,AND THE SON,

    THE THREE RESPECTIVE SPIRITS ALL IN JESUS, THE WORD!!!

    Quote
    God his a spirit being a complete being ,

    IF GOD IS A SPIRIT BEING, HE IS NOT A CARNAL BEING.

    SO HE IS NOT FULLY COMPLETE. HE IS ONLY COMPLETE AS A SPIRIT!!!

    HE LACKS A VISIBLE MATERIAL SUBSTANCE, ALTHOUGH HE OWNS THE INGREDIANTS OF ALL MATERIALS WITHIN HIM, BUT HE DIDN’T PRODUCE FOR HIMSELF A COSTUME, HE COULD HAVE DONE SO,BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DETRIMENTAL FOR HIS CREATURES IF HE BECAME VISIBLE!

    INSTEAD GOD  MANIFESTED HIMSELF,THROUGH HIS VARIOUS ENTIRE CREATURES NO MATTER WHAT.

    SO HE ALLOWED THAT PROCESS TO CREATE HIS VARIOUS MYRIAD CREATURES IN, BUT THROUGH THE WORD, JESUS’SPIRIT IN THE FUNCTION OF A MEDIATOR. THAT WAY HE ABIDED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN JESUS’SPIRIT, AS THE WORD, THE GODHEAD IN FULL POWER.

    Quote
    Christ his a spirit being a complete being separated from the father ,

    this is solid truth

    WRONG! IT IS HALF TRUTH!!!

    AS A SPIRIT, HE IS BOTH COMPLETELY SEPARATED, AND ALSO UNITED AS ONE WITHIN THE FATHER. TWO FUNCTIONS.
    WHILE THE SON WAS IN THE WORLD,AS FLESH SUBSTANCE OF THE WORD, JESUS,

    HE WAS BOTH GOD IN FLESH,

    GOD IN JESUS,

    THE FATHER IN THE SON, THE WORD,

    AND ALSO IN HEAVEN WITHIN THE FATHER’S DIVINITY. HE CONFIRMED THIS IN

    JOHN 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,

    THE SON OF MAN

    WHO IS IN HEAVEN.

    John 17: 24 Father, I will that

    WHERE I AM,

    they also whom thou hast given me may be with me;……………………..

    SO HE SAID   WHO IS IN HEAVEN, SO HE WAS ALSO IN HEAVEN WITHIN THE FATHER’S DIVINITY,

    ALSO HE SAID

    ‘WHERE I AM, not WHERE I SHALL BE, CONFIRMING THAT HE WAS WITHIN HIS FATHER’S DIVINITY IN HEAVEN

    CHRIST IS GOD’S FUNCTION WHICH THE FATHER IS WELL PLEASED TO ABIDE WITHIN AS MATTER, ALL MATERIAL, ALL FLESH

    GOD OF ALL FLESH

    Jeremiah 32:27 Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?

    God confirmed above ,that although it is a too hard process to become GOD IN FLESH HE ACHIEVED IT THROUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRST, THE WORD.

    BUT HE STILL REMAINED A SPIRIT, HE LOST NOTHING OF HIS ORIGINAL STATE.

    SO HE IS FUNCTIONING WITHIN HIS SON, THE MEDIATOR,THE WORD, JESUS CHRIST BUT BOTH  AS  FLESH AND  SPIRIT,UNITED AS ONE FOR ETERNITY.

    THEREFORE GOD FROM A COMPLETE SPIRIT BEING ONLY, HE BECAME ALSO:

    THE COMPLETE BEING, OF BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, THE ONLY TRUE GOD

    HIS TASK NOW IS THAT HE PUTS ALL JESUS’ ENEMIES AS HIS FOOTSTOOL. ALL CREATURES MUST ACKNOWLEDGE THAT JESUS INHERITED ALL GOD’S ATTRIBUTES AND IS  THE MOST POWERFULL AND ONLY TRUE GOD, TILL THE LAST DAY WHEN GOD AS A SPIRIT WOULD BE :

    ALL JESUS’ SPIRITUAL CREATURES IN ALL JESUS’ CARNAL CREATURES

    THE MYSTICAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST!

    THE SON’S KINGDOM

    GOD’S KINGDOM

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #337356
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 03 2013,02:00)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2013,08:59)

    jammin, do you agree with me that ONLY the MOST HIGH God should get the capital “G”?  YES or NO?


    the capital G should be given to the true God, the most high God and not god.


    Okay, I agree that the capital “G” should only be given to the Most High God, the One called “the only true God” by Jesus himself.

    So let's use what we learned in our discussion about whether or not Satan was God Almighty, and apply that same logic and reasoning to Jesus.  

    We both concluded that Satan is NOT God Almighty – not because there is a scripture that specifically says, “Satan is not God Almighty” – but because Satan is many times listed as someone OTHER THAN God Almighty, right?

    Let's use that same common sense in the following scriptures:

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Since Jesus lists himself as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God” in the above verse, we should be able to use the same common sense we used while discussing Satan, and conclude that Jesus is NOT “the only true God”, right?

    Mark 5:7
    He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!”

    Luke 1:32
    He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.

    In both of the above scriptures, Jesus is identified as someone OTHER THAN “the Most High God” – once by an angel, and once by a demon.  So once again, if we use that same common sense we used when discussing Satan, we will conclude that Jesus can't BE the Most High God if he is someone OTHER THAN the Most High God.

    So what we have here is evidence that you, jammin, are smart enough to realize Satan can't be the Most High God because he is identified in many scriptures as someone OTHER THAN the Most High God.

    And we have evidence that I use that same reasoning and common sense when it comes to Jesus……….. but YOU don't.

    Why do you suppose that I'M consistent in my logic, common sense, and reasoning, while YOU are inconsistent?

    Is it perhaps because you are a Trinitarian, and for your comically flawed, man-made doctrine to be fulfilled, you must force yourself to completely ignore the common sense you applied to our Satan discussion when it comes to discussing Jesus?

    (Btw, why do you think the demon asked Jesus to swear to him “in God's name” that he wouldn't torture him?  Why can't Jesus swear in HIS OWN name, if he is actually God?)

    jammin, if your doctrine only allows you to practice common sense and logic SOME OF THE TIME, perhaps it's time for you to find a new doctrine.

    #337357
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 03 2013,02:01)
    now for the creation. pls read gen 1
    you can find it there


    I can read in Job that the sons of God (angels) were shouting for joy when God created the earth.  So obviously, there were beings already in existence when the creation mentioned in Genesis took place.

    I'm asking you which BEING you think God created first.  Was it Michael, the archangel?  Gabriel?  Some other angel?

    I'm only asking for your best GUESS here, because scripture doesn't say.

    #337380
    terraricca
    Participant

    carmel

    Quote
    Jeremiah 32:27 Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?

    God confirmed above ,that although it is a too hard process to become GOD IN FLESH HE ACHIEVED IT THROUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRST, THE WORD.

    BUT HE STILL REMAINED A SPIRIT, HE LOST NOTHING OF HIS ORIGINAL STATE.

    SO HE IS FUNCTIONING WITHIN HIS SON, THE MEDIATOR,THE WORD, JESUS CHRIST BUT BOTH AS FLESH AND SPIRIT,UNITED AS ONE FOR ETERNITY.

    THEREFORE GOD FROM A COMPLETE SPIRIT BEING ONLY, HE BECAME ALSO:

    THE COMPLETE BEING, OF BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, THE ONLY TRUE GOD

    HIS TASK NOW IS THAT HE PUTS ALL JESUS’ ENEMIES AS HIS FOOTSTOOL. ALL CREATURES MUST ACKNOWLEDGE THAT JESUS INHERITED ALL GOD’S ATTRIBUTES AND IS THE MOST POWERFULL AND ONLY TRUE GOD, TILL THE LAST DAY WHEN GOD AS A SPIRIT WOULD BE :

    ALL JESUS’ SPIRITUAL CREATURES IN ALL JESUS’ CARNAL CREATURES

    THE MYSTICAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST!

    THE SON’S KINGDOM

    GOD’S KINGDOM

    man ,who man,scriptures do not say that ,and it is only in your own head that that his true ,

    can you not read the scriptures without adding to it things of your own ,??? you do not make sens to me ,I walk with black and white ,colors ,

    Quote
    WRONG! IT IS HALF TRUTH!!!

    AS A SPIRIT, HE IS BOTH COMPLETELY SEPARATED, AND ALSO UNITED AS ONE WITHIN THE FATHER. TWO FUNCTIONS.
    WHILE THE SON WAS IN THE WORLD,AS FLESH SUBSTANCE OF THE WORD, JESUS,

    HE WAS BOTH GOD IN FLESH,

    GOD IN JESUS,

    THE FATHER IN THE SON, THE WORD,

    AND ALSO IN HEAVEN WITHIN THE FATHER’S DIVINITY. HE CONFIRMED THIS IN

    JOHN 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,

    Christ the son of God known as the WORD put off his glory and came to be among us ,so he could not be God the father and man ,

    religion as done a good job on you to confuse you that bad ,PLEASE START TO BELIEVE SCRIPTURES JUST THE WAY THEY ARE GIVEN TO YOU BY GOD ,YOU TRY TO MAKE IT ,SO THAT IT WOULD TAKE A BRAIN OF A SCHOLAR TO UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES ,BUT IT DOES NOT ,CHILDREN CAN UNDERSTAND IT BETTER ,

    I MEAN WHAT I SAY ,IF YOU THINK IT IS NOT TRUE SHOW A SCRIPTURE TO ME THAT SAYS THAT IS WRONG ,BUT IN YOUR CASE I HAVE TO PUT THE ENTIRE SCRIPTURES AGAINST WHAT YOU TEACHING ,THIS IS TO MUCH WORK FOR ME ,

    LOOK UP SOME OF MY QUOTES AND TOPICS AND PICK ONE AND SHOW ME IT IS NOT TRUE ,WITH A SCRIPTURE

    #337457
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,11:18)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 03 2013,02:00)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2013,08:59)

    jammin, do you agree with me that ONLY the MOST HIGH God should get the capital “G”?  YES or NO?


    the capital G should be given to the true God, the most high God and not god.


    Okay, I agree that the capital “G” should only be given to the Most High God, the One called “the only true God” by Jesus himself.

    So let's use what we learned in our discussion about whether or not Satan was God Almighty, and apply that same logic and reasoning to Jesus.  

    We both concluded that Satan is NOT God Almighty – not because there is a scripture that specifically says, “Satan is not God Almighty” – but because Satan is many times listed as someone OTHER THAN God Almighty, right?

    Let's use that same common sense in the following scriptures:

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Since Jesus lists himself as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God” in the above verse, we should be able to use the same common sense we used while discussing Satan, and conclude that Jesus is NOT “the only true God”, right?

    Mark 5:7
    He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!”

    Luke 1:32
    He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.

    In both of the above scriptures, Jesus is identified as someone OTHER THAN “the Most High God” – once by an angel, and once by a demon.  So once again, if we use that same common sense we used when discussing Satan, we will conclude that Jesus can't BE the Most High God if he is someone OTHER THAN the Most High God.

    So what we have here is evidence that you, jammin, are smart enough to realize Satan can't be the Most High God because he is identified in many scriptures as someone OTHER THAN the Most High God.

    And we have evidence that I use that same reasoning and common sense when it comes to Jesus……….. but YOU don't.

    Why do you suppose that I'M consistent in my logic, common sense, and reasoning, while YOU are inconsistent?

    Is it perhaps because you are a Trinitarian, and for your comically flawed, man-made doctrine to be fulfilled, you must force yourself to completely ignore the common sense you applied to our Satan discussion when it comes to discussing Jesus?

    (Btw, why do you think the demon asked Jesus to swear to him “in God's name” that he wouldn't torture him?  Why can't Jesus swear in HIS OWN name, if he is actually God?)

    jammin, if your doctrine only allows you to practice common sense and logic SOME OF THE TIME, perhaps it's time for you to find a new doctrine.


    LOL

    the father is truly God

    the son is also truly God.
    do you understand that boy?

    ill give you an example.
    do you believe that your father is truly HUMAN?

    if yes, do you believe that you, just like your father, is truly HUMAN? yes or no?

    answer these boy

    #337458
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,11:20)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 03 2013,02:01)
    now for the creation. pls read gen 1
    you can find it there


    I can read in Job that the sons of God (angels) were shouting for joy when God created the earth.  So obviously, there were beings already in existence when the creation mentioned in Genesis took place.

    I'm asking you which BEING you think God created first.  Was it Michael, the archangel?  Gabriel?  Some other angel?

    I'm only asking for your best GUESS here, because scripture doesn't say.


    if the bible is silent, you must be silent.

    do not conclude that Christ was the first creation created by God bec paul did not say that.

    he said firstborn of all creation and that is not literally created.
    the context proves that it refers to the supremacy of Christ. pls read commentaries also. scholars know more than you know.
    also, the bible proves that it talks about supremacy of Christ.

    Colossians 1:15

    New Century Version (NCV)
    The Importance of Christ

    15 No one can see God, but Jesus Christ is exactly like him. He ranks higher than everything that has been made.

    did you see that boy? study hard

    #337618
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 06 2013,20:16)
    if the bible is silent, you must be silent.

    do not conclude that Christ was the first creation created by God bec paul did not say that.

    he said firstborn of all creation and that is not literally created.
    the context proves that it refers to the supremacy of Christ. pls read commentaries also. scholars know more than you know.
    also, the bible proves that it talks about supremacy of Christ.

    Colossians 1:15

    New Century Version (NCV)
    The Importance of Christ

    15 No one can see God, but Jesus Christ is exactly like him. He ranks higher than everything that has been made.

    did you see that boy? study hard


    Jammin……………You are right in this Boy, :)

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

    #337652
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 06 2013,03:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,11:18)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 03 2013,02:00)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2013,08:59)

    jammin, do you agree with me that ONLY the MOST HIGH God should get the capital “G”?  YES or NO?


    the capital G should be given to the true God, the most high God and not god.


    Okay, I agree that the capital “G” should only be given to the Most High God, the One called “the only true God” by Jesus himself.

    So let's use what we learned in our discussion about whether or not Satan was God Almighty, and apply that same logic and reasoning to Jesus.  

    We both concluded that Satan is NOT God Almighty – not because there is a scripture that specifically says, “Satan is not God Almighty” – but because Satan is many times listed as someone OTHER THAN God Almighty, right?

    Let's use that same common sense in the following scriptures:

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Since Jesus lists himself as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God” in the above verse, we should be able to use the same common sense we used while discussing Satan, and conclude that Jesus is NOT “the only true God”, right?

    Mark 5:7
    He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!”

    Luke 1:32
    He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.

    In both of the above scriptures, Jesus is identified as someone OTHER THAN “the Most High God” – once by an angel, and once by a demon.  So once again, if we use that same common sense we used when discussing Satan, we will conclude that Jesus can't BE the Most High God if he is someone OTHER THAN the Most High God.

    So what we have here is evidence that you, jammin, are smart enough to realize Satan can't be the Most High God because he is identified in many scriptures as someone OTHER THAN the Most High God.

    And we have evidence that I use that same reasoning and common sense when it comes to Jesus……….. but YOU don't.

    Why do you suppose that I'M consistent in my logic, common sense, and reasoning, while YOU are inconsistent?

    Is it perhaps because you are a Trinitarian, and for your comically flawed, man-made doctrine to be fulfilled, you must force yourself to completely ignore the common sense you applied to our Satan discussion when it comes to discussing Jesus?

    (Btw, why do you think the demon asked Jesus to swear to him “in God's name” that he wouldn't torture him?  Why can't Jesus swear in HIS OWN name, if he is actually God?)

    jammin, if your doctrine only allows you to practice common sense and logic SOME OF THE TIME, perhaps it's time for you to find a new doctrine.


    the father is truly God


    jammin,

    Haven't I just listed scriptures that identify Jesus as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God” and “the Most High God”?  YES I have.

    And didn't you just say that the “only true God” and “Most High God” is the ONLY one who should get the capital “G”?

    Yes you did.

    Now you only need to adhere to your own words, jammin.

    #337653
    terraricca
    Participant

    Carmel

    Quote
    Christ is his first creation

    Quote

    Terraricca

    THAT’S A HUGE LIE:

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation

    why his Christ the first of all creation ??? because of this ;;;Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    2CO 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

    1CO 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

    1CO 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “ All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

    1CO 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

    HEB 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

    Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible

    all those scriptures show that Christ his the first and that all creation was created through him

    SO MY STATEMENT THAT CHRIST HIS THE FIRST CREATION IS TRUE

    #337654
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hmmm…………

    The words are “firstborn of every creature”.  Yet jammin says it must mean something other than the most sensible understanding, because he doesn't WANT Jesus to have been created at all.

    And Gene says it must mean something other than the most sensible understanding, because he doesn't WANT Jesus to have been created before the world began.

    Yet Jesus calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”. (Rev 3:14)  And Paul speaks about when God again sends His “firstborn” into world.  (Heb 1:6)

    But naturally, you both will come up with other things these clear words mean as well, right?  Because neither of you WANTS the most obvious and sensible understanding of those words to be the truth, right?  :)

    What it you're wrong? What if “firstborn of every creature” means exactly what it sounds like it means?

    #337675
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    =mikeboll64,Mar. 05 2013,11:18]


    Quote
    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Since Jesus lists himself as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God”

    Mike,

    READ:

    Since Jesus lists himself ALSOas someone OTHER THAN “the only true God”

    AND:

    Since you never broke down, and analyzed scriptures which contradicts your belief ,

     I will do it for you with the HOPE !!! that I would make you  discern the TRUTH

    PLEASE GIVE REASONS ACCORINGLY TO STRENGTHEN WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS THE TRUTH!

    SO READ:

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life:

    TO WHOM JESUS REFERED, WITH:  

    NOW!!!! THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE!!!!

    TO HIMSELF,

    TO HIS FATHER

    OR TO BOTH???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #337676
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 08 2013,12:34][/quote]

    Quote
    The words are “firstborn of every creature”.  Yet jammin says it must mean something other than the most sensible understanding, because he doesn't WANT Jesus to have been created at all.

    Mike,

    OK!

    define:

    THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE!

    IN ORDER TO PROVE THAT JESUS WAS EVER CREATED!

    I AM WAITING SO DO NOT IGNORE MY POST IN ORDER TO DEFINE IT AFTERWORDS MYSELF AND PROVE THAT HE WAS NEVER CREATED!

    ALSO:

    Yet Jesus calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”.

    THIS IT DOESN MEAN THAT JESUS' SPIRIT WAS EVER CREATED

    IT SIMPLY MEAN:

    THAT GOD USED HIS SON'S SPIRIT, THE WORD, GOD, WHO WAS ETERNALLY ONE WITH THE FATHER, IN A DIFFERENT FUNCTION AS A MEDIATOR,AND COMMENCED CREATION.

    IT IS DIFFICULT FOR YOU MIKE, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU IGNORE THE BELIEF THAT GOD IS A TRIUNE GOD.

    NOW THE WORD  GOD, AS A MEDIATORE, AND CREATORE IS THAT:

    BOTH THE FATHER,AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, WERE WITHIN THE SON'S SPIRIT AS THE MEDIATOR!

    TILL GOD CREATED THE ENTIRE CREATION!

    WHEN ALL WAS CREATED, THE WORD

    BECAME FLESH, MAN/GOD SIMPLY:

    BY KEEPING THE SAME FUNCTION,WITHIN JESUS AS MAN/GOD AND THAT IS

    THE FATHER'S SPIRIT, WITHIN THE HOLY SPIRIT AS JESUS' SOUL, BOTH WITHIN JESUS' SPIRIT BUT AS A HUMAN FLESH SUBSTANCE.

    THE GODHEAD CARNALLY!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #337728
    terraricca
    Participant

    Mike

    Quote

    Yet Jesus calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”.

    THIS IT DOESN MEAN THAT JESUS' SPIRIT WAS EVER CREATED

    IT SIMPLY MEAN:

    THAT GOD USED HIS SON'S SPIRIT, THE WORD, GOD, WHO WAS ETERNALLY ONE WITH THE FATHER, IN A DIFFERENT FUNCTION AS A MEDIATOR,AND COMMENCED CREATION.

    this is Carmel quote to you ;IT SEEMS TO ME THAT HE DOES NOT WANT THAT JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD “WAS CREATED ” AND SO LIKE THE OTHERS ALWAYS FIND A WAY TO ANNUL THE VERSES YOU PRESENT TO BE SAYING JUST THAT ,BUT THEY MAKE IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE ,AND THEN ASK YOU TO PROVE WHAT THEY DO NOT WANT TO SEE :D :D :D

    #337731
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Charles,

    How about YOU answer MY question: In John 17:3, DOES Jesus CLEARLY identify himself as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God”?  YES or NO?

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 08 2013,00:25)
    TO WHOM JESUS REFERED, WITH:  

    NOW!!!! THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE!!!!

    TO HIMSELF,

    TO HIS FATHER

    OR TO BOTH???


    None of the above.  Jesus is saying that THE WAY TO eternal life is taking in knowledge of both him, AND the “only true God”, who is not only OUR God, but also JESUS' God.

    He is not calling anyone “eternal life” in that verse.

    #337735
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 08 2013,17:57)
    IT SEEMS TO ME THAT HE DOES NOT WANT THAT JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD “WAS CREATED ” AND SO LIKE THE OTHERS ALWAYS FIND A WAY TO ANNUL THE VERSES YOU PRESENT TO BE SAYING JUST THAT ,BUT THEY MAKE IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE ,AND THEN ASK YOU TO PROVE WHAT THEY DO NOT WANT TO SEE


    Amen, brother!

    Why can't the words in scripture just mean the most obvious and sensible thing? :)

    #337736
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 08 2013,00:53)
    IT IS DIFFICULT FOR YOU MIKE, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU IGNORE THE BELIEF THAT GOD IS A TRIUNE GOD.


    Actually Charles,

    The fact that you DO want our ONE God to be some kind of multi-personality freak is the reason you can't accept “I am the beginning of the creation by God” for the most obvious and sensible meaning – which is:  Jesus was the first thing God ever created.

    It's not like there is just ONE scripture that you have to twist into a nonsensical meaning.  You have to twist Prov 8:22, Col 1:15, Micah 5:2, Rev 3:14, Heb 1:6…… and many others as well.

    Do ALL of those scriptures have some oddball, nonsensical meaning, Charles?  Must we imagine that ALL of them mean something other than the most obvious and sensible meaning – just so your comically flawed, man-made doctrine can be fulfilled?

    You do it if you want to.  I refuse to make nonsense out of perfectly clear scriptures – just to appease my own personal desires.

    I do, however, wish you the best on your spiritual journey, and hope that you will soon come to accept the words of scripture as they were written.

    I pray that you will come to accept our one God, the Father, AND His only begotten Son……… instead of a made up God who CONSISTS OF a Father and a Son.

    #337800
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,12:10)

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 08 2013,00:53)
    IT IS DIFFICULT FOR YOU MIKE, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU IGNORE THE BELIEF THAT GOD IS A TRIUNE GOD.


    Actually Charles,

    The fact that you DO want our ONE God to be some kind of multi-personality freak is the reason you can't accept “I am the beginning of the creation by God” for the most obvious and sensible meaning – which is:  Jesus was the first thing God ever created.

    It's not like there is just ONE scripture that you have to twist into a nonsensical meaning.  You have to twist Prov 8:22, Col 1:15, Micah 5:2, Rev 3:14, Heb 1:6…… and many others as well.

    Do ALL of those scriptures have some oddball, nonsensical meaning, Charles?  Must we imagine that ALL of them mean something other than the most obvious and sensible meaning – just so your comically flawed, man-made doctrine can be fulfilled?

    You do it if you want to.  I refuse to make nonsense out of perfectly clear scriptures – just to appease my own personal desires.

    I do, however, wish you the best on your spiritual journey, and hope that you will soon come to accept the words of scripture as they were written.

    I pray that you will come to accept our one God, the Father, AND His only begotten Son……… instead of a made up God who CONSISTS OF a Father and a Son.


    Quote
    Do ALL of those scriptures have some oddball, nonsensical meaning, Charles?

    Mike,

    ARE YOU GOING TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR POINT THAT THE BELOW IS A PROOF THAT THE SON'S SPIRIT WAS CREATED?

    HAVE A GO MIKE!

    define:

    THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE!

    IN ORDER TO PROVE THAT JESUS WAS EVER CREATED!

    I AM WAITING !!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #337836
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 09 2013,21:50)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,12:10)

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 08 2013,00:53)
    IT IS DIFFICULT FOR YOU MIKE, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU IGNORE THE BELIEF THAT GOD IS A TRIUNE GOD.


    Actually Charles,

    The fact that you DO want our ONE God to be some kind of multi-personality freak is the reason you can't accept “I am the beginning of the creation by God” for the most obvious and sensible meaning – which is:  Jesus was the first thing God ever created.

    It's not like there is just ONE scripture that you have to twist into a nonsensical meaning.  You have to twist Prov 8:22, Col 1:15, Micah 5:2, Rev 3:14, Heb 1:6…… and many others as well.

    Do ALL of those scriptures have some oddball, nonsensical meaning, Charles?  Must we imagine that ALL of them mean something other than the most obvious and sensible meaning – just so your comically flawed, man-made doctrine can be fulfilled?

    You do it if you want to.  I refuse to make nonsense out of perfectly clear scriptures – just to appease my own personal desires.

    I do, however, wish you the best on your spiritual journey, and hope that you will soon come to accept the words of scripture as they were written.

    I pray that you will come to accept our one God, the Father, AND His only begotten Son……… instead of a made up God who CONSISTS OF a Father and a Son.


    Quote
    Do ALL of those scriptures have some oddball, nonsensical meaning, Charles?

    Mike,

    ARE YOU GOING TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR POINT THAT THE BELOW IS A PROOF THAT THE SON'S SPIRIT WAS CREATED?

    HAVE A GO MIKE!

    define:

    THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE!

    IN ORDER TO PROVE THAT JESUS WAS EVER CREATED!

    I AM WAITING !!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles

    Quote
    define:

    THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE!

    firstborn = first come into live

    of every creature = before all other creature

    #337886
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 09 2013,09:50)
    ARE YOU GOING TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR POINT THAT THE BELOW IS A PROOF THAT THE SON'S SPIRIT WAS CREATED?


    I know nothing about the creation of the spirit God placed in His firstborn Son, Jesus Christ.

    Nor do I know whether or not the spirits God places in human beings were created at some point.

    What I do know is that WE were created, and so was Jesus.

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