John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,841 through 9,860 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #310688
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    I agree with your post except for the part about God having a body.  I believe He does, and that we are taught as much many times in scripture.

    But…………… how does your post answer the points I made in the quote box you included in your post?   ???

    For example, are you able to understand that Jesus is called the Word of God, but Jesus is not the word of God that will be written on all men's hearts in the future? Do you understand that these teachings describe two different things that are called “the word of God”?

    #310696
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:08)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,19:22)
    Mike,

    Yes, Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word was MANIFEST (MADE KNOWN) in the flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua! How many times do I have to tell you what it is that I believe before you get it through you thick head? This makes perfect sense to me!

    And how many times do I have to tell you that the word “IN” is not in John 1:14?

    John teaches us that the Word BECAME flesh – not that the Word “was manifested IN the flesh of God's Son Yahshua”.

    Your understanding relies upon ADDING a word to the scripture, Frank.  It is only one little word, but that word completely CHANGES the teaching.  Are you happy with CHANGING the teaching of John 1:14 so your doctrine comes out on top?

    Mike,

    My use of the word “in” was not in reference to or in substitution of the word “became” nor was I adding a word to Scripture, since I was not quoting Scripture in MY SAYING “Yes, Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word was MANIFEST (MADE KNOWN) in the flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua! How many times do I have to tell you what it is that I believe before you get it through you thick head? This makes perfect sense to me!” This most certainly is not me quoting Scripture, but is instead ME STATING what it is that I believe in accordance with what Scripture clearly teaches.  Father Yahweh's word still became flesh and is MADE KNOWN (“manifested”) in His son Yahshua, since he is the spokesman of His word in this last time period. Father Yahweh's word was most certainly IN His son Yahshua. This is exactly what I was talking about in entering into an an endless dispute with you. All you do is continuously twist and pervert what I say and the inspired prophetic word of Father Yahweh. Scripturally speaking, you trample Father Yahweh's word under foot like the swine/dog that you obviously are.

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310698
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Yahshua is speaking to his and our Father Yahweh in Yahchanan [John] 17:5 about the ESTEEM (“GLORY”) that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began. He is not speaking of his pre-existing with Him as an actual being. Following is an excerpt from a study much similar to other studies that I have presented here that explains in the same manner to what Yahshua was actually giving reference to:

    In John 17:5 we read the following —

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    To the untrained mind it sounds as though this verse is upholding the teaching that the Messiah pre-existed before his fleshly birth. But, by comparing the Greek text to the English translation and then letting OTHER SCRIPTURES interpret this scripture for us, it becomes very obvious that this scripture was also TAMPERED WITH — TWISTED to fit prevailing pagan concepts!

    The New International Version Greek-English New Testament by Alfred Marshall, shows the Greek word for word translation of this verse:

    5. and now glorify me thou, Father, with thyself….with the glory which I had before the world to be with thee.

    The first word underlined and translated “I HAD” is the IMPERFECT FORM of the Greek word “echo” — word #2192 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. This word means: to have to hold. However, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament shows this word to mean: TO HAVE IN STORE! Notice —

    …. to have a thing in readiness, have at hand, have in store:

    Therefore, the word translated “I HAD” can — and should — have been translated “I AM TO HAVE.” This glory that the Messiah is said to have, is to be BEFORE the world TO COME.

    The next word underlined — translated “BEFORE” — is word #4253 in Strong's, and means: PREVIOUSLY; that is, “PREVIOUS” to the world TO COME —

    4253. …. pro, pro; a prim. prep.; “fore,” i.e. in front of, prior (fig. Superior) to:- above, ago, before, or ever. In comp. it retains the same significations.

    The third word underlined — translated “TO BE” — is shown by A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament by Ethelbert W. Bullinger to mean “COME”:

    elvai (pres. infinit.) to be, 33; be, 12; to have been, 1; have been, 1; that…am (art, is, are, be), 27; that…was (were), 10; had been, 1; that…may (might, should) be, 6; to be made, 1; come, 1.

    Now let's read this verse in the way that it should have been translated —

    And now, O Father, You glorify me beside Your own self, with the glory which I AM TO HAVE with You BEFORE the world to come.

    The Messiah was only asking YEHOVAH God to glorify him beside the Father — or at the right hand of YEHOVAH's throne — with the glory that HE (YEHOVAH God) HAD IN STORE for him — BEFORE the Kingdom of God (YEHOVAH) and BEFORE the NEW WORLD that is to come.

    The Messiah knew full well that he was to die and be resurrected by YEHOVAH God. He also knew that he was to be allowed to take his rightful place at the right side of YEHOVAH, and that is exactly what we find in the other scriptures that interpret this scripture. Notice Hebrews 1:1-3:

    Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle (the one sent) and High Priest of our profession, Yeshua the Messiah; who was faithful to Him: YEHOVAH, Who BEGOT HIM, just as Moses was faithful in all his house. Now this one (the Messiah) was counted worthy of more GLORY than Moses, since he who has built the House of YEHOVAH has more honor than the House of YEHOVAH.

    This GLORY was in fulfillment of Biblical prophecy — and this glory was only to BEGIN to take place in a certain time period. In the following verses we find written:

    Hebrews 1:13: But to which of the angels has He (YEHOVAH) ever said: sit at my right hand — until I make your enemies your footstool?

    Psalm 110:1: YEHOVAH said to my ruler and king: sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

    1 Peter 1:11: Examining closely to what things, or what manner of season, which the spirit that was in them made clear to them, when it testified BEFOREHAND to the sufferings of Messiah, and the GLORY THAT WOULD FOLLOW.

    1 Peter 5:1: The elders who are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Messiah, and ALSO A PARTAKER of the GLORY THAT WILL BE REVEALED:

    We must realize that we too can look forward to this SAME glory that the Messiah will receive. Just as the apostles looked forward to this glory, so should we. Notice 2 Peter 1:3:

    As His holy power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and holiness, through the full knowledge of Him Who called US to GLORY and virtue.

    This was the very glory that the Messiah was talking about — glory he knew he would receive because it was written in the prophets! He knew he would RECEIVE this glory AFTER HIS RESURRECTION — he did not have this glory before his human birth! Yeshua the Messiah, as the only BEGOTTEN son of YEHOVAH God, will always have the honor of being at his Father's right hand — but he did not receive this honor (glory) until AFTER his resurrection!

    The word translated “glory” is word #1391 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, and means:

    2. magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, a most glorious condition, most exalted state; a. of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth: Lk. xxai. 26; Jn. xvii. 5

    As the Bible says, the Messiah will receive his glory and then his enemies will be made his footstool. In 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 we clearly see that the last enemy that will be destroyed is DEATH — but we also can see that YEHOVAH God will always be exalted as THE SUPREME HEAD over ALL, even by Yeshua himself, who sits at YEHOVAH's right hand —

    Then the end, when he (the Messiah) will have handed over the Kingdom to YEHOVAH, to our Father, when he (the Messiah) will have destroyed every other rule, and every authority and power. For he (the Messiah) MUST REIGN until he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For YEHOVAH has put all things under his feet. But when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE YEHOVAH HIMSELF, Who put everything under Yeshua. When He has done this, then the son himself WILL BE SUBJECT TO HIM Who put all things under him, so that YEHOVAH may be acknowledged as THE SUPREME HEAD OVER ALL.

    Clearly, when the Messiah appears on this earth again (as pictured in Revelation 10) he will have all authority to destroy all other rules, authorities and powers. He will reign on earth until he has put all enemies under his feet and then, when YEHOVAH's Shekinah Glory returns to this earth (Revelation 19:11) to reside in the Temple built by the Messiah, the Messiah will hand all power over to Him and become subject to Him — acknowledging that YEHOVAH God is the SUPREME HEAD over ALL. Yeshua the Messiah will then become our High Priest, ministering to YEHOVAH his Father in the Temple of YEHOVAH God!

    The Messiah was NOT speaking of “past glory”, nor of a “past life” — as count-less deceived people have believed. Unfortunately, people are deceived because of the pagan lies that the translators have inserted into the scriptures! The Messiah was speaking of the glory he WAS to RECEIVE after he was resurrected; the glory of the only BEGOTTEN son of the Father, full of mercy and truth!

    The glory of being the ONLY begotten son of YEHOVAH — the FIRSTBORN from the dead, is the glory the Messi
    ah has NOW, and will forevermore have! But — and let this sink in – the Messiah DID NOT have this glory previously, because he simply DID NOT EXIST before he was begotten by YEHOVAH God and born as a flesh and blood human being! Read 1 Peter 1:19-20:

    But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was MANIFEST in these last times for you; who through him we do believe in YEHOVAH, who raised him up from the dead, and GAVE HIM GLORY; that your faith and hope might be in YEHOVAH.
    SOURCE:
    12 Proofs the Messiah DID NOT Pre-Exist!
    The plan of YEHOVAH God has been overlooked by the people in this world because they have accepted the PAGAN DOCTRINE of a pre-existent savior who did it all for them — which has been taught to them by the SERVANTS OF SATAN! This pagan doctrine was contrived for the purpose of BLINDING people's minds to the TRUE Savior sent by YEHOVAH, and to YEHOVAH's true plan of bringing His sons to perfection. The following proofs show that Yeshua the Messiah NEVER EXISTED prior to his human birth in Bethlehem two thousand years ago.
    John D. Keyser

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310700
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:08)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,19:22)
    Mike,

    Yes, Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word was MANIFEST (MADE KNOWN) in the flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua! How many times do I have to tell you what it is that I believe before you get it through you thick head? This makes perfect sense to me!


    And how many times do I have to tell you that the word “IN” is not in John 1:14?


    God was in Christ,
    reconciling the world unto himself,
    not imputing their trespasses unto them;
    and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” (2 Cor 5:19)

    #310701
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:11)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,19:29)
    Mike,

    FACT: Nowhere in Scripture does it actually teach that Father Yahweh's word was an actual being that was with Him in the beginning and was “a god”!


    Sure it does – in MANY places.  Here's just one of them:

    John 17:5
    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    If THE BEING Jesus said that HE had glory in God's presence before the world began, then it is clear that THE BEING Jesus DID have glory in God's presence before the world began.  Either that, or your Lord lied to you, Frank.  Which is it?


    Yahshua is speaking to his and our Father Yahweh in Yahchanan [John] 17:5 about the ESTEEM (“GLORY”) that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began. He is not speaking of his pre-existing with Him as an actual being. Following is an excerpt from a study much similar to other studies that I have presented here that explains in the same manner to what Yahshua was actually giving reference to:

    In John 17:5 we read the following —

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    To the untrained mind it sounds as though this verse is upholding the teaching that the Messiah pre-existed before his fleshly birth. But, by comparing the Greek text to the English translation and then letting OTHER SCRIPTURES interpret this scripture for us, it becomes very obvious that this scripture was also TAMPERED WITH — TWISTED to fit prevailing pagan concepts!

    The New International Version Greek-English New Testament by Alfred Marshall, shows the Greek word for word translation of this verse:

    5. and now glorify me thou, Father, with thyself….with the glory which I had before the world to be with thee.

    The first word underlined and translated “I HAD” is the IMPERFECT FORM of the Greek word “echo” — word #2192 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. This word means: to have to hold. However, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament shows this word to mean: TO HAVE IN STORE! Notice —

    …. to have a thing in readiness, have at hand, have in store:

    Therefore, the word translated “I HAD” can — and should — have been translated “I AM TO HAVE.” This glory that the Messiah is said to have, is to be BEFORE the world TO COME.

    The next word underlined — translated “BEFORE” — is word #4253 in Strong's, and means: PREVIOUSLY; that is, “PREVIOUS” to the world TO COME —

    4253. …. pro, pro; a prim. prep.; “fore,” i.e. in front of, prior (fig. Superior) to:- above, ago, before, or ever. In comp. it retains the same significations.

    The third word underlined — translated “TO BE” — is shown by A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament by Ethelbert W. Bullinger to mean “COME”:

    elvai (pres. infinit.) to be, 33; be, 12; to have been, 1; have been, 1; that…am (art, is, are, be), 27; that…was (were), 10; had been, 1; that…may (might, should) be, 6; to be made, 1; come, 1.

    Now let's read this verse in the way that it should have been translated —

    And now, O Father, You glorify me beside Your own self, with the glory which I AM TO HAVE with You BEFORE the world to come.

    The Messiah was only asking YEHOVAH God to glorify him beside the Father — or at the right hand of YEHOVAH's throne — with the glory that HE (YEHOVAH God) HAD IN STORE for him — BEFORE the Kingdom of God (YEHOVAH) and BEFORE the NEW WORLD that is to come.

    The Messiah knew full well that he was to die and be resurrected by YEHOVAH God. He also knew that he was to be allowed to take his rightful place at the right side of YEHOVAH, and that is exactly what we find in the other scriptures that interpret this scripture. Notice Hebrews 1:1-3:

    Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle (the one sent) and High Priest of our profession, Yeshua the Messiah; who was faithful to Him: YEHOVAH, Who BEGOT HIM, just as Moses was faithful in all his house. Now this one (the Messiah) was counted worthy of more GLORY than Moses, since he who has built the House of YEHOVAH has more honor than the House of YEHOVAH.

    This GLORY was in fulfillment of Biblical prophecy — and this glory was only to BEGIN to take place in a certain time period. In the following verses we find written:

    Hebrews 1:13: But to which of the angels has He (YEHOVAH) ever said: sit at my right hand — until I make your enemies your footstool?

    Psalm 110:1: YEHOVAH said to my ruler and king: sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

    1 Peter 1:11: Examining closely to what things, or what manner of season, which the spirit that was in them made clear to them, when it testified BEFOREHAND to the sufferings of Messiah, and the GLORY THAT WOULD FOLLOW.

    1 Peter 5:1: The elders who are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Messiah, and ALSO A PARTAKER of the GLORY THAT WILL BE REVEALED:

    We must realize that we too can look forward to this SAME glory that the Messiah will receive. Just as the apostles looked forward to this glory, so should we. Notice 2 Peter 1:3:

    As His holy power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and holiness, through the full knowledge of Him Who called US to GLORY and virtue.

    This was the very glory that the Messiah was talking about — glory he knew he would receive because it was written in the prophets! He knew he would RECEIVE this glory AFTER HIS RESURRECTION — he did not have this glory before his human birth! Yeshua the Messiah, as the only BEGOTTEN son of YEHOVAH God, will always have the honor of being at his Father's right hand — but he did not receive this honor (glory) until AFTER his resurrection!

    The word translated “glory” is word #1391 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, and means:

    2. magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, a most glorious condition, most exalted state; a. of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth: Lk. xxai. 26; Jn. xvii. 5

    As the Bible says, the Messiah will receive his glory and then his enemies will be made his footstool. In 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 we clearly see that the last enemy that will be destroyed is DEATH — but we also can see that YEHOVAH God will always be exalted as THE SUPREME HEAD over ALL, even by Yeshua himself, who sits at YEHOVAH's right hand —

    Then the end, when he (the Messiah) will have handed over the Kingdom to YEHOVAH, to our Father, when he (the Messiah) will have destroyed every other rule, and every authority and power. For he (the Messiah) MUST REIGN until he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For YEHOVAH has put all things under his feet. But when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE YEHOVAH HIMSELF, Who put everything under Yeshua. When He has done this, then the son himself WILL BE SUBJECT TO HIM Who put all things under him,
    so that YEHOVAH may be acknowledged as THE SUPREME HEAD OVER ALL.

    Clearly, when the Messiah appears on this earth again (as pictured in Revelation 10) he will have all authority to destroy all other rules, authorities and powers. He will reign on earth until he has put all enemies under his feet and then, when YEHOVAH's Shekinah Glory returns to this earth (Revelation 19:11) to reside in the Temple built by the Messiah, the Messiah will hand all power over to Him and become subject to Him — acknowledging that YEHOVAH God is the SUPREME HEAD over ALL. Yeshua the Messiah will then become our High Priest, ministering to YEHOVAH his Father in the Temple of YEHOVAH God!

    The Messiah was NOT speaking of “past glory”, nor of a “past life” — as count-less deceived people have believed. Unfortunately, people are deceived because of the pagan lies that the translators have inserted into the scriptures! The Messiah was speaking of the glory he WAS to RECEIVE after he was resurrected; the glory of the only BEGOTTEN son of the Father, full of mercy and truth!

    The glory of being the ONLY begotten son of YEHOVAH — the FIRSTBORN from the dead, is the glory the Messiah has NOW, and will forevermore have! But — and let this sink in – the Messiah DID NOT have this glory previously, because he simply DID NOT EXIST before he was begotten by YEHOVAH God and born as a flesh and blood human being! Read 1 Peter 1:19-20:

    But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was MANIFEST in these last times for you; who through him we do believe in YEHOVAH, who raised him up from the dead, and GAVE HIM GLORY; that your faith and hope might be in YEHOVAH.
    SOURCE:
    12 Proofs the Messiah DID NOT Pre-Exist!
    The plan of YEHOVAH God has been overlooked by the people in this world because they have accepted the PAGAN DOCTRINE of a pre-existent savior who did it all for them — which has been taught to them by the SERVANTS OF SATAN! This pagan doctrine was contrived for the purpose of BLINDING people's minds to the TRUE Savior sent by YEHOVAH, and to YEHOVAH's true plan of bringing His sons to perfection. The following proofs show that Yeshua the Messiah NEVER EXISTED prior to his human birth in Bethlehem two thousand years ago.
    John D. Keyser

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310702
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 27 2012,07:37)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:08)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,19:22)
    Mike,

    Yes, Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word was MANIFEST (MADE KNOWN) in the flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua! How many times do I have to tell you what it is that I believe before you get it through you thick head? This makes perfect sense to me!


    And how many times do I have to tell you that the word “IN” is not in John 1:14?


    God was in Christ,
    reconciling the world unto himself,
    not imputing their trespasses unto them;
    and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” (2 Cor 5:19)


    kerwin,

    TWO THUMBS WAY UP! :)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310709
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Aug. 27 2012,04:15][/quote]

    Quote
    The Spirit Being who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them

    MIKE,

    ARE YOU CONFIRMING THAT GOD CANNOT BE VISIBLE??

    #310714
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:16)
    [quote=mikeboll64,Aug. 27 2012,04:15][/quote]

    Quote
    The Spirit Being who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them

    MIKE,

    ARE YOU CONFIRMING THAT GOD CANNOT BE VISIBLE??


    yes, i do

    #310785
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:13)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 25 2012,19:57)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,03:37)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 25 2012,06:03)
    the bible said that Christ BECAME FLESH
    BUT BEFORE THAT, HE WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD.


    That's right, jammin.

    Jesus was in the form OF God.  Those words mean that Jesus was someone OTHER THAN God.


    that is just your illusion again mike.i did not say that the father is the son. the son is not the father. the father is not the son.


    Well jammin,

    If the Son is not the Father, and 1 Cor 8:6 teaches us that our one God is the Father, and Jesus teaches us the the Father is the only true God, what's left for you?

    If the Father is God, and Jesus is NOT the Father, what does that tell you?


    i have a pending question for you. why are you afraid to answer the question boy?? LOL

    ill repeat
    are you in the form of MAN?? does it mean that you are not MAN if you have the form/nature of MAN?

    yes or no???

    are you an animal mike??? yes or no?
    ———-

    btw, Christ told that the we have ONE FATHER who is Truly God.

    let me post john 17.3
    John 17:3

    New International Version (NIV)

    3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    i believe that there is ONE father who is Truly God.

    how about you boy??? do you have TWO FATHERS WHO ARE TRULY GOD???

    the bible also said that the son is Truly God!
    ONE and ONLY SON who is Truly God.

    John 1:18

    New International Version (NIV)

    18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

    1 John 5:20

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.

    study hard boy LOL

    #310787
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2012,08:43)

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:16)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:15)


    Quote
    The Spirit Being who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them

    MIKE,

    ARE YOU CONFIRMING THAT GOD CANNOT BE VISIBLE??


    yes, i do


    Pierre,

    Why do you respond to a question that was directed to Mike? Maybe you should respond to Richard on the Bible Wheel Forum after your asking him where his response was back some time ago (5-17-2010). He has been waiting for your response for quite some time I believe, right? ???

    Following is his response to you and a link to the thread follows:

    Quote
    Hi Pierre,

    Sorry for the slow response.

    What is your native tongue? I notice you are writing phonetically. For example, you wrote “be on are” for “beyond our” in this sentence “God is spirit and powerful be on are wildest imagination”

    I find that very interesting. But also, it makes conversation a bit challenging.

    Now I notice that you are sharing your ideas – like your idea that the word had a beginning, and that Christ is our “god” like Moses was a “god” to Aaron. That's fine, but it seems like the conversation is just going to wander around one idea here and one idea there. I would prefer a more systematic approach.

    For example, we should be looking at the best and most powerful arguments for our two positions: You show me the best argument against some aspect of the Trinity, and I will show you the best argument for some aspect of the Trinity.

    This can be very interesting. For example, one of the strongest arguments for the pre-existence of Christ (a fundamental aspect of the Trinity) is found in John 17:
    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
    What glory did Christ have with the Father “before the world was” if he did not exist?

    On the other had, in a fascinating twist of irony, this same passage yields one of the strongest arguments against the Trinity:
    John 17:20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 “that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 “And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 “I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
    The word “just as” (kathos) means that we are one with God in the same way that Christ is one with God. Obviously, we are not part of a Gazzillionty – a Godhead made up of gazzillions of separate believers.

    This is the approach I would like us to take. We each present the best arguments whether they support our case or not. That's how a properly functioning mind really works.

    Richard

    SOURCE:
    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum….e3

    #310790
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 27 2012,11:52)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2012,08:43)

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:16)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:15)


    Quote
    The Spirit Being who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them

    MIKE,

    ARE YOU CONFIRMING THAT GOD CANNOT BE VISIBLE??


    yes, i do


    Pierre,

    Why do you respond to a question that was directed to Mike? Maybe you should respond to Richard on the Bible Wheel Forum after your asking him where his response was back some time ago (5-17-2010). He has been waiting for your response for quite some time I believe, right? ???

    Following is his response to you and a link to the thread follows:

    Quote
    Hi Pierre,

    Sorry for the slow response.

    What is your native tongue? I notice you are writing phonetically. For example, you wrote “be on are” for “beyond our” in this sentence “God is spirit and powerful be on are wildest imagination”

    I find that very interesting. But also, it makes conversation a bit challenging.

    Now I notice that you are sharing your ideas – like your idea that the word had a beginning, and that Christ is our “god” like Moses was a “god” to Aaron. That's fine, but it seems like the conversation is just going to wander around one idea here and one idea there. I would prefer a more systematic approach.

    For example, we should be looking at the best and most powerful arguments for our two positions: You show me the best argument against some aspect of the Trinity, and I will show you the best argument for some aspect of the Trinity.

    This can be very interesting. For example, one of the strongest arguments for the pre-existence of Christ (a fundamental aspect of the Trinity) is found in John 17:
    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
    What glory did Christ have with the Father “before the world was” if he did not exist?

    On the other had, in a fascinating twist of irony, this same passage yields one of the strongest arguments against the Trinity:
    John 17:20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 “that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 “And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 “I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
    The word “just as” (kathos) means that we are one with God in the same way that Christ is one with God. Obviously, we are not part of a Gazzillionty – a Godhead made up of gazzillions of separate believers.

    This is the approach I would like us to take. We each present the best arguments whether they support our case or not. That's how a properly functioning mind really works.

    Richard

    SOURCE:
    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum….e3


    Pierre,

    BTW, I am also a member of the Bible Wheel Forum and would also find your response to Richard quite interesting in accordance with Richard's instruction of what he refers to a “more systematic approach.” I will also now be waiting for your response on this Bible Wheel Forum thread, since Richard has made an excellent point on “how a properly functioning mind really works” as he has so eloquently put it.  :)

    Or maybe this would be too much of a real challenge for you and you would rather stay here and have a “conversation [that just goes] wander[ing] around [with] one idea here and one idea there” as Richard has also so eloquently put it and is what obviously what goes on in this forum  ??? 

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310795
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 27 2012,07:47)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 27 2012,07:37)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:08)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,19:22)
    Mike,

    Yes, Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word was MANIFEST (MADE KNOWN) in the flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua! How many times do I have to tell you what it is that I believe before you get it through you thick head? This makes perfect sense to me!


    And how many times do I have to tell you that the word “IN” is not in John 1:14?


    God was in Christ,
    reconciling the world unto himself,
    not imputing their trespasses unto them;
    and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” (2 Cor 5:19)


    kerwin,

    TWO THUMBS WAY UP! :)


    :D

    #310800
    jammin
    Participant

    these people are putting their own words in the bible.
    there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14

    why dont you make your own bible boys LOL

    john did not say in john 1.1 that God was in Christ.
    john did not say in john 1.14 that God was in Christ.

    these people are really blind.
    they are jumping to the other verse to support their illusion but if you read the context of john 1.1-14, john is talking about the Christ who is God by nature and became flesh. john is saying that the Word in john 1.1 is a title for Christ. the Word is the name of Christ. he is called the Word. john also said this in rev 19.13
    John 1:1

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    The Word of Life

    1 In the beginning was the one
    who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God
    and was truly God.

    Revelation 19:13

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    13 The rider wore a robe that was covered with[a] blood, and he was known as “The Word of God.”

    John 1:1

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [b]Himself.

    make your own bible boys LOL

    #310801
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 27 2012,18:52)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2012,08:43)

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:16)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:15)


    Quote
    The Spirit Being who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them

    MIKE,

    ARE YOU CONFIRMING THAT GOD CANNOT BE VISIBLE??


    yes, i do


    Pierre,

    Why do you respond to a question that was directed to Mike? Maybe you should respond to Richard on the Bible Wheel Forum after your asking him where his response was back some time ago (5-17-2010). He has been waiting for your response for quite some time I believe, right? ???

    Following is his response to you and a link to the thread follows:

    Quote
    Hi Pierre,

    Sorry for the slow response.

    What is your native tongue? I notice you are writing phonetically. For example, you wrote “be on are” for “beyond our” in this sentence “God is spirit and powerful be on are wildest imagination”

    I find that very interesting. But also, it makes conversation a bit challenging.

    Now I notice that you are sharing your ideas – like your idea that the word had a beginning, and that Christ is our “god” like Moses was a “god” to Aaron. That's fine, but it seems like the conversation is just going to wander around one idea here and one idea there. I would prefer a more systematic approach.

    For example, we should be looking at the best and most powerful arguments for our two positions: You show me the best argument against some aspect of the Trinity, and I will show you the best argument for some aspect of the Trinity.

    This can be very interesting. For example, one of the strongest arguments for the pre-existence of Christ (a fundamental aspect of the Trinity) is found in John 17:
    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
    What glory did Christ have with the Father “before the world was” if he did not exist?

    On the other had, in a fascinating twist of irony, this same passage yields one of the strongest arguments against the Trinity:
    John 17:20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 “that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 “And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 “I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
    The word “just as” (kathos) means that we are one with God in the same way that Christ is one with God. Obviously, we are not part of a Gazzillionty – a Godhead made up of gazzillions of separate believers.

    This is the approach I would like us to take. We each present the best arguments whether they support our case or not. That's how a properly functioning mind really works.

    Richard

    SOURCE:
    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum….e3


    F

    well my name appears on top any way ;

    but yes you right I should have done it the way you describe it ,and yes I will pay closer attention so it not happen again :D

    and as for the other quote ,this is long time ago May 2010 ,I left that forum I believe soon after that ,

    and forgot all about it ,then I found this one ;this forum I LIKE,I also like what it stand for ,

    #310804
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2012,14:12)

    these people are putting their own words in the bible.
    there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14

    why dont you make your own bible boys LOL


    Hi Jammin,

    What (according to YOU) is the Apostle Paul then saying in 2 Cor 5:19?       …if it not an alternate account of John 1:14?

    God was in Christ,
    reconciling the world unto himself,
    not imputing their trespasses unto them;
    and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” (2 Cor 5:19)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #310805
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 27 2012,14:26)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2012,14:12)

    these people are putting their own words in the bible.
    there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14

    why dont you make your own bible boys LOL


    Hi Jammin,

    What (according to YOU) is the Apostle Paul then saying in 2 Cor 5:19?       …if it not an alternate account of John 1:14?

    God was in Christ,
    reconciling the world unto himself,
    not imputing their trespasses unto them;
    and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” (2 Cor 5:19)

    God bless
    Ed J


    Hi Jammin,

    Then when you connect Acts 10:38 to them, a bigger picture begins to emerge.
    How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the HolySpirit and with power (making him The Christ):
    who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was [with(in)] him.” (Acts 10:38)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #310807
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    The thing is that only created beings have bodies; even the naked body of a ghost; or the bodies of angels and demons.    Bodies are created and God is not.  Solomon even teaches us that a temple; much less a body can contain God.  Jesus can obviously not be the offspring of God’s body because God does not have a body; nor is that how Scripture states he fathers children.

    Genesis 16:7-13
    American Standard Version (ASV)

    7 And the angel of Jehovah found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
    8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's handmaid, whence camest thou? and whither goest thou? And she said, I am fleeing from the face of my mistress Sarai.
    9 And the angel of Jehovah said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
    10 And the angel of Jehovah said unto her, I will greatly multiply thy seed, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
    11 And the angel of Jehovah said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son; and thou shalt call his name Ishmael, because Jehovah hath heard thy affliction.
    12 And he shall be as a wild ass among men; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his brethren.
    13 And she called the name of Jehovah that spake unto her, Thou art a God that seeth: for she said, Have I even here looked after him that seeth me?

    Hagar states she saw Jehovah; even though it was literally one of his angels she saw.   Hagar knew that Jehovah dwelled inside his Messenger; even though he is not contained within that body; as is that Messenger’s soul.

    John 1
    American Standard Version (ASV)

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Jesus received him and gained the right to become a child of God, believing on his name, being born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    This is what Scripture states about God fathering children:

    Galatians 4:6
    American Standard Version (ASV)

    6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

    That Spirit of God’s Son writes the Word on the hearts of believers into who it is sent.   It is that Spirit that Hagar saw in the Messenger that Jehovah sent to her; and the same Spirit that God places on his servant Jesus.

    Since Jesus receives him, he clearly cannot be him.  If we deny that Jesus receives him then we deny that Jesus is a child of God.  

    Jesus is called by the name of the Word of God because he is the incarnation of God’s Word; even to being the one by whom the Word is written on the hearts of men and to whom the angels, such as the one Hagar saw, have been submitted.

    #310849
    jammin
    Participant

    ed,

    i do not have a problem with 2cor. do not put your own imagination to paul's words

    i want you to read your imagination in john 1.1-14
    can you read john said God was in Christ in john 1.1 and 1.14???
    yes or no?

    #310850
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2012,14:09)
    ed,

    i do not have a problem with 2cor. do not put your own imagination to paul's words

    i want you to read your imagination in john 1.1-14
    can you read john said God was in Christ in john 1.1 and 1.14???
    yes or no?


    Jammin,

    You are deceived about John's words as it is clear that Jesus received the light that is in the Word and so gained the right to become a child of God, believing on his name, being born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    It is clear because is the Son of God; and the one by whom all those that believe are adopted as sons. Since his reception of the light that is in the Word makes him the Son of God he is not the light but he is the one by whom the light enters into the world.

    #310857
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    do not put your own imagination to john's words.

    can you read in john 1.14 that john said God was in christ?? do you have any version that says that?
    yes or no?

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