John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,861 through 9,880 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #310883
    carmel
    Participant

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    There is no messages from the Bible that the mediator between God and men should be a truly God, because the mediator or the redeemer of all sinners must be a holy man.  

    Limjunus,

    That’s according to your corrupted worldly wisdom, WITH EVERY RESPECT!!

    Now let’s see:

    Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

    Paul asserts, that a mediator is not of ONE, therefore of TWO OR MORE!!

    BUT GOD IS ONE:  HE is omnipotent, He is not to be compared with human decrees. He handles His things directly, and DOES NOT NEED A MEDIATOR, and in the same time He can be complex both the mediator and the parties and still remains ONE. His WORK is not of the nature of a contract between two parties. His ACTIONS depends on his own individual decree.  HE IS ONE, and He deals directly single handed for all those involved and in the same time also for Himself, and for His own plan. He directly spoke to Abraham regarding the promise of the messiah, the genuine complex mediator for the entire human race, He directly spoke to Paul while on the road to Damascus.

    From the other hand Moses was only a mediator for the Jews only, He only established temporary carnal useless LAW till Christ comes. But again there were three parties involved: the ANGEL, MOSES and the  JEWS.

    BUT GOD IS ONE!!

    19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by ANGELS in the hand of a MEDIATOR..

    Now this is the complex part:

    22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the PROMISE by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    So the entire human race, are all under sin and death. But God is Spirit, and God loves MAN, and FLESH but hates SIN and DEATH.

    SO We have MAN, FLESH, SIN, and DEATH, on one side and GOD, who is SPIRIT, SINLESS, and IMMORTAL on the other side.

    Now as a mediator, signifies a middle person, there must necessarily be two parties AT LEAST, between whom HE stands, and acts in reference to BOTH, as he is supposed to have the interests of BOTH EQUALLY AT HEART.

    PERFECTLY BALANCED, AND QUALIFIED IN BOTH RESPECTIVE FIELDS IN ORDER TO BE ACCEPTED AND BE SUCCESSFUL.

    Now it is clear what PAUL MEANT WHEN HE SAID :

    A MEDIATOR IS NOT OF ONE,BUT GOD IS ONE!

    THE FATHER HAS NO SUCH CREDENTIALS. HE IS ONLY A SPIRIT.

    THEREFORE THERE WAS ONLY ONE WHO QUALIFIED IN THAT SENSE :

    JESUS CHRIST WAS A MEDIATOR NOT OF ONE ENTITY BUT OF :

    BOTH GOD AND MAN,                        THE FATHER WASN'T
    BOTH SPIRITUAL AND CARNAL,           THE FATHER WASN'T
    BOTH SINLESS AND SNFULL               THE FATHER WASN'T
    BOTH IMMORTAL AND MORTAL,          THE FATHER WASN'T

    BUT GOD IS ONE   BUT:

    IN JESUS CHRIST SINCE HE IS ALSO:

    ONE SPIRIT, ONE SOUL, ONE FLESH, ONE MAN, ONE MESSIAH, ONE BAPTISM ,ONE FAITH, ONE LOVE, ONE LIFE, ONE LIGHT, ONE TRUTH, ONE WAY, ONE GLORY. FOR ALL.

    NO MATTER WHAT.

    THE UNIQUE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL IN HIMSELF WHO IS PERFECTLY BALANCED  AND EQUALLY QUALIFED IN BOTH FIELDS, AND HAD THE INTERESTS OF:

    BOTH EQUALLY AT HEART.

    SO JESUS CHRIST IS TRULY THE ONLY GOD IN FLESH SINCE HE ACHIEVED ALL BOTH FOR THE FATHER AND FOR THE MAN

    REV:5:4 And I wept much, because NO MAN WAS FOUND WORTHY to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

    5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS
    CHARLES

    #310885
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    The Spirit Being who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them.

    MIKE,

    ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE THAT IS HALF THE TRUTH.

    UNLESS YOU RESPECT THE FACT THAT JESUS ALSO IS GOD!!KNOWN TO US AS SON OF GOD DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE BECAME MAN.

    Jesus gave an IDENTY TO THE FATHER

    AN INVISBLE GOD IS WITHOUT  RECOGNITION.

    AS SOON AS HE CREATED HIS CREATURES HE BECAME A CONTRADICTION DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE  AS A JUST AND LOVING GOD CREATED HIS CREATURES WITH A FREE WILL LIKE HIM.

    THE ONLY WAY OUT WAS THAT HE HIMSELF WOULD BECOME LIKE THEM IN JESUS CHRIST, IN ORDER TO TRANSFORM  HIS CREATURES INTO BECOMING LIKE HIM IN THEIR FREE WILL, SO IT WAS THROUGH BECOMING  THE MAN THAT HE GLORIFIED,NOT IF HE REMAINED A SPIRIT. JESUS GLORIFIED THE FATHER AND HIMSELF THROUGHOUT OUR CREATION.

    ON THE LAST DAY GOD WOULD GLORIFY I REPEAT: WOULD GLORIFY IN ALL, IN THE BODY OF MAN. THE MYSTICAL BODY OF JESUS FOR ETERNITY.

    ON THE LAST DAY THE FATHER WOULD BE GLORIFIED IN THE GLORY OF THE SON. IN HIS MYSTICAL BODY.

    THERFORE JESUS IS GOD IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER

    John 16:15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.  

    ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM, AND ALL FOR HIM!!!

    EXPLAIN THIS MIKE!!

    Colossians 1:2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of

    THE MYSTERY OF GOD,

    AND OF THE FATHER,

    AND OF CHRIST

    3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    WHY GOD , THE   FATHER, AND CHRIST ARE SEPARATED???

    WHY NOT GOD THE FATHER, AND CHRIST.???

    LIKE THAT IT PROVES THAT ONLY THE FATHER IS GOD!!! NO???

    WHAT IS THE REASON THEN, THAT THEY ARE EQUALLY AND INDIVIDUALLY MENTIONED???

    IS GOD BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON THEN???

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES

    #310887
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 26 2012,15:16)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:15)
    The Spirit Being who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them

    MIKE,

    ARE YOU CONFIRMING THAT GOD CANNOT BE VISIBLE??


    Hi Charles,

    Spirit beings are USUALLY invisible to human beings. But spirit beings are able to see other spirit beings. And once in a rare while, God even “opens” the eyes of flesh beings and allows them to see spirit beings.

    We know from scripture that no man has seen God at any time.

    #310888
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    I John 5:7. The Old Testament prophets nowhere promulgated a doctrine about a “pre-existent savior” — and neither did the Messiah or the apostles in the New Testament. But the pagans, anxious to incorporate this doctrine (which was one of THEIR oldest and most honored) into their “Christian” religion, went so far as to ADD verses to the Bible to prove their doctrine of pre-existence and the Trinity. This is something the scriptures adamantly condemn.

    Here is a verse that was ADDED for this very reason —

    “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (I John 5:7).

    What is wrong with this scripture? Simply this: This entire verse is NOT even found in the Greek writings before the year 400 A.D.! The apostle John NEVER wrote this — nor would it have ever entered his mind!

    The later translators knew this verse was ADDED and bogus, yet they failed to italicize it, which is a standard practice to show the reader that those particular words and phrases were added. This, in itself, proves that those in control of translating the scriptures were those who embraced the doctrines of paganism — and NOT the every word of YEHOVAH God!

    The Emphatic Diaglott, page 803, shows this verse MISSING in their translation — and also explains WHY —

    7. The received text reads, “For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth.” This text concerning the heavenly witnesses is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the 15th century. It is not cited by any of the Greek ecclesiastical writers; nor by any of the early Latin fathers, even when the subject upon which they treat would naturally have led them to appeal to its authority. It is therefore evidently spurious; and was first cited (though not as it now reads) by Vigilius Tapsensis, a Latin writer of no credit, in the latter end of the fifth century; but by whom forged, is of no great moment, as its design must be obvious to all. — Improved Version.

    Adam Clarke, in his Clarke's Commentary, goes on to tell us:

    Verse 7. [There are three that bear record] The Father, who bears testimony to his Son; the Word or Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the Holy Ghost, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.

    But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.

    It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, Ethiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, etc., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.

    The words, as they exist in all the Greek MSS. with the exception of the Codex Montfortii, are the following:-

    “6. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one. 9. If we receive the witness of man, the witness of God is greater, &c.”

    The words that are omitted by all the MSS., the above excepted, and all the versions, the Vulgate excepted, are these:– [In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one and there are three which bear witness in earth.]

    However, we will allow the book Forgery in Christianity, by Joseph Wheless, to explain WHY this was not deleted by some of the later Bible versions —

    Erasmus first detected the fraud and omitted the forged verse in his edition of the Greek Testament in 1516. (New Comm. Pt. III, p. 718-19.) This verse 7, bluntly speaking, is a forgery: “It had been willfully and wickedly interpolated, to sustain the Trinitarian doctrine; it has been entirely omitted by the Revisers of the New Testament.” (Roberts, Companion to the Revised Version, p. 72) “This memorable text,” says Gibbon, “is condemned by the silence of the Fathers, ancient versions, and authentic manuscripts, of all the manuscripts now extant, above four score in number, some of which are more than 1200 years old.” (Ch. xxvii, p. 598.) Speaking of this and another, Reinach says: “One of these forgeries (I John v, 7) was subjected to interpolation of a later date…If these two verses were authentic, they would be an affirmation of the doctrine of the Trinity, at a time when the gospels, and Acts and St. Paul ignore it. It was first pointed out in 1516 that these verses were an interpolation, for they do not appear in the best manuscripts down to the fifteenth century. The Roman Church refused to bow to the evidence…The Congregation of the Index, on January 13, 1897, with the approbation of Leo XIII, forbade any question of the authenticity of the text relating to the “Three Heavenly Witnesses.” It showed in this instance a willful ignorance to which St. Gregory's rebuke is specially applicable: 'God does not need our lies.'” (Orpheus, p. 239.) But His Church does; for without them it would not be; and with out the forged “Three Heavenly Witnesses,” there would be not a word in the entire New Testament hinting the existence of the Three-in-One God of Christianity. The Holy Trinity is an unholy Forgery!

    The first perpetrator of this FRAUD added the pagan doctrine of the Trinity to the Bible — that there are three gods in one: the Father (one), the “Word” (Yeshua the Messiah; two) and the Holy Spirit, a personified third god (three). However, the other perpetrators of this false doctrine are just as guilty of deception since they DID NOT remove this verse from subsequent versions of the Bible when they uncovered the truth about it!

    In naming the second person of this Trinity the “Word,” the perpetrators of I John 5:7 were also promulgating the FALSEHOOD of the pagan concept found in John 1:1 (KJV) — which says:

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

    Take note that the word “Word” is CAPITALIZED in this verse — in order to make it appear as though this were speaking about a being or a person. And, in this particular case, the translators of the King James Version did want you to believe that the “Word” was God, and that “He” was “in the beginning WITH God” — that “He” was pre-existent and equal with YEHOVAH.

    It is interesting to note that in the Chaldee Targums (paraphrases of parts of the Old Testament written in the Chaldee language) we find that YEHOVAH God is called “the Word of the Lord” and equated with the Shekinah Glory! It is, in fact, common practice in the Targums to find the word LORD (YEHOVAH) translated “the Word of the Lord” — notice:

    KING JAMES VERSION. Numbers 10:35, 36: “And it came to pass, when the ark set forward, that Moses said, Rise up, LORD [YEHOVAH], and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thee. And when it rested, he said, Return, O LORD [YEHOVAH], unto the many thousands of Israel.”

    This latter part becomes, in the Targums:

    CHALDEE TARGUMS. Numbers 10:36: “Return now, O WORD OF THE LORD, to Thy people Israel, make the glory of Thy SHEKINAH to dwell among them, and have mercy on the thousands of Israel.”

    Now look at Numbers 11:20:

    KING JAMES VE
    RSION
    . Numbers 11:20: “Because that ye have despised the LORD which is among you.”

    CHALDEE TARGUMS. Numbers 11:20: “Because ye have contemptuously rejected THE WORD OF THE LORD whose SHEKINAH dwelleth among you.”

    The Greek word “Logos” was very dear to pagan minds; but, nevertheless, should properly have been translated “MANIFESTATION” or “SHEKINAH GLORY” in this case — and certainly not confused with Yeshua the Messiah!

    The MANIFESTATION OF YEHOVAH God was with YEHOVAH “in the beginning,” and it was YEHOVAH's manifestation (Greek possessive form). YEHOVAH's manifestation (or Shekinah Glory) was with him in the beginning, and His manifestation was His very own, as we see in the first chapter of the Book of Genesis, where YEHOVAH said: “Let there be light; and there was light.”
    SOURCE

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310890
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 26 2012,14:38)
    The first word underlined and translated “I HAD” is the IMPERFECT FORM of the Greek word “echo” — word #2192 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. This word means: to have to hold. However, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament shows this word to mean: TO HAVE IN STORE! Notice —

    …. to have a thing in readiness, have at hand, have in store:

    Therefore, the word translated “I HAD” can — and should — have been translated “I AM TO HAVE.”


    The imperfect tense of “echo” in 17:5 means “the glory I WAS HAVING before the word began”.

    Most translations render it as a simple past tense (“the glory I HAD”) in English, but the meaning is the same.

    The Greeks used the imperfect tense alot, as I recently noticed in the NASB I just finished reading.  In that translation, they put an asterisk each time they translated a Greek imperfect tense as an English past tense.

    It seems that almost every time you read, “He said………” in our English Bibles, the words were “He was saying……..” in the Greek text.

    #310892
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37)
    i have a pending question for you. why are you afraid to answer the question boy?? LOL

    ill repeat
    are you in the form of MAN??


    I've already answered this question many times, jammin.  YES, I am in the form of MAN, because I am A man.

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37)
    does it mean that you are not MAN if you have the form/nature of MAN?


    NO, it means I am A man if I'm in the form/nature of MAN.

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37)
    btw, Christ told that the we have ONE FATHER who is Truly God.

    let me post john 17.3
    John 17:3

    New International Version (NIV)

    3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    i believe that there is ONE father who is Truly God.


    Actually, Jesus didn't call his Father and God “truly God”.  He called Him “the ONLY true God”.

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37)
    the bible also said that the son is Truly God!
    ONE and ONLY SON who is Truly God.


    The Greek text never said such a thing, jammin.  There are more and more English Bibles, sponsored by Trinitarian Organizations, that twist the words of scripture and produce “translations” that say Jesus is “truly God” – but that claim was never in any Greek text written by the disciples.

    #310894
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,21:12)
    these people are putting their own words in the bible.
    there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14


    You are right.  That's why Ed has to bring the word “IN” from a completely different scripture in 2 Cor to help him “twist” John 1:14.

    Ed, you're not allowed to borrow the word “IN” from 2 Cor 5:19 and place it into John 1:14.  :)

    (Btw, “NO”, it is not “an alternate account of John 1:14”. Nor would it teach what you want it to teach if it was. The Word became flesh and had the glory of the Son of God, right? So if you are saying the Word WAS God, then you are also saying that God became flesh and had the glory of His own Son.)

    #310895
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2012,18:41)
    kerwin,

    do not put your own imagination to john's words.

    can you read in john 1.14 that john said God was in christ?? do you have any version that says that?
    yes or no?


    Jammin,

    I applied John's words to Jesus as he is the Child of God and John teaches how the life that is the Word fathers God's children. No imagining, just reasoning.

    #310896
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2012,22:22)
    Mike,

    The thing is that only created beings have bodies…………..


    Where is the scripture that teaches us what you claimed?  Matthew 18:10 (among many others) tells us that God DOES have a body.

    Btw, I'm still waiting for an answer:

    Do you understand that Jesus, who is “the Word of God”, is not “the word of God” that will be written on the hearts of men? Do you understand that there are different meanings of the phrase “the word of God” in the scriptures, Kerwin? YES or NO?

    #310900
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,09:44)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 26 2012,14:38)
    The first word underlined and translated “I HAD” is the IMPERFECT FORM of the Greek word “echo” — word #2192 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. This word means: to have to hold. However, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament shows this word to mean: TO HAVE IN STORE! Notice —

    …. to have a thing in readiness, have at hand, have in store:

    Therefore, the word translated “I HAD” can — and should — have been translated “I AM TO HAVE.”


    The imperfect tense of “echo” in 17:5 means “the glory I WAS HAVING before the word began”.

    Most translations render it as a simple past tense (“the glory I HAD”) in English, but the meaning is the same.

    The Greeks used the imperfect tense alot, as I recently noticed in the NASB I just finished reading.  In that translation, they put an asterisk each time they translated a Greek imperfect tense as an English past tense.

    It seems that almost every time you read, “He said………” in our English Bibles, the words were “He was saying……..” in the Greek text.


    Mike,

    The main point is that Yahshua was speaking of the esteem (“glory”) that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began and not that he pre-existed his birth as an actual being and that he was with Him in the beginning. Just as an earthly father looks forward to having a child and has esteem for that child that has not yet come into existence.

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310903
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:14)
    MIKE,

    ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE THAT IS HALF THE TRUTH.

    UNLESS YOU RESPECT THE FACT THAT JESUS ALSO IS GOD


    No Charles,

    Jesus is the Son of God Almighty – not God Almighty Himself.

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:14)
    AS SOON AS HE CREATED HIS CREATURES……..


    All things were created by God THROUGH Jesus.  As Tertullian aptly pointed out, He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:14)
    John 16:15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.  

    EXPLAIN THIS MIKE!!


    The God and Father of Jesus has given Jesus all He has – as many fathers did for their sons in the scriptures.

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:14)
    Colossians 1:2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of

    THE MYSTERY OF GOD,

    AND OF THE FATHER,

    AND OF CHRIST

    3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    WHY GOD , THE   FATHER, AND CHRIST ARE SEPARATED???

    WHY NOT GOD THE FATHER, AND CHRIST.???


    Here is the NETBible translation:
    Colossians 2
    2 My goal is that their hearts, having been knit together in love, may be encouraged, and that they may have all the riches that assurance brings in their understanding of the knowledge of the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 6  

    3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    And here is NETNote #6:
    6 tc
    There are at least a dozen variants here, almost surely generated by the unusual wording τοῦ θεοῦ, Χριστοῦ (tou qeou, Cristou, “of God, Christ”; so Ì46 B Hil).

    Scribes would be prone to conform this to more common Pauline expressions such as:
    “of God, who is in Christ” (33),
    “of God, the Father of Christ” (א* A C 048vid 1175 bo), and
    “of the God and Father of Christ” (א2 Ψ 075 0278 365 1505 pc).

    Even though the external support for the wording τοῦ θεοῦ, Χριστοῦ is hardly overwhelming, it clearly best explains the rise of the other readings and should thus be regarded as authentic.

    Charles, the KJV translation of this verse is not a very solid foundation to build your doctrine on, since there are dozens of variants.  Consider the way Paul USUALLY refered to God and His Christ in his letters.  It is usually “We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”.  Why do you ignore the MANY times Paul said those words, and focus instead on one odd translation from the KJV?

    Also Charles, please make any responding posts short, with maybe one question per post.  I don't enjoy responding to long, drawn out posts.

    Here is your one question from me:

    Luke 4:3
    The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

    Luke 8:28
    When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!”

    Charles, why do you suppose that Satan and his demons didn't recognize Jesus as “God Himself, manifested in flesh”?  Why were they confused, and thinking Jesus was the Son OF God?

    #310904
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 27 2012,17:23)
    Mike,

    The main point is that Yahshua was speaking of the esteem (“glory”) that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began and not that he pre-existed his birth as an actual being and that he was with Him in the beginning. Just as an earthly father looks forward to having a child and has esteem for that child that has not yet come into existence.


    Frank,

    Obviously, I completely disagree.  I not only disagree with your interpretation, but also can't think of any scriptural or secular writing in the history of the world that would support such an interpretation of the words in John 17:5.

    Also, your interpretation centers on a FATHER holding “in his presence” some future esteem for his unborn child.  It does NOT center on that child someday saying, “Father, give me the esteem I WAS HAVING with you a long time ago.”  How could the child say he was having that esteem if he wasn't even around yet to have it?  ???

    And finally Frank, my understanding is not based ONLY on 17:5.  I take into consideration these other things Jesus said:

    No one has seen God except for him who came from God.

    I came down from heaven, and will ascend to where I was before.

    Before Abraham was born, I have existed.

    You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

    There are many more things Jesus said, not to mention the dozens of teachings from the writers of the NT that also support the pre-existence of Jesus.

    And what do the non-preexisters combat all those scriptures with?  Odd interpretations of scriptural words, that make no sense at all, and the ADDITION of words into scriptures so that the scripture teaches what they WANT it to teach.

    Frank, take a look at this thread.  There are about 50 scriptures listed in the first post that support the pre-existence of Jesus Christ.

    #310911
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 28 2012,09:59)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2012,18:41)
    kerwin,

    do not put your own imagination to john's words.

    can you read in john 1.14 that john said God was in christ?? do you have any version that says that?
    yes or no?


    Jammin,

    I applied John's words to Jesus as he is the Child of God and John teaches how the life that is the Word fathers God's children.  No imagining, just reasoning.


    can you read it in john 1.14 that john said God was in Christ?
    yes or no?

    #310912
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,09:54)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37)
    i have a pending question for you. why are you afraid to answer the question boy?? LOL

    ill repeat
    are you in the form of MAN??


    I've already answered this question many times, jammin.  YES, I am in the form of MAN, because I am A man.

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37)
    does it mean that you are not MAN if you have the form/nature of MAN?


    NO, it means I am A man if I'm in the form/nature of MAN.

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37)
    btw, Christ told that the we have ONE FATHER who is Truly God.

    let me post john 17.3
    John 17:3

    New International Version (NIV)

    3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    i believe that there is ONE father who is Truly God.


    Actually, Jesus didn't call his Father and God “truly God”.  He called Him “the ONLY true God”.

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37)
    the bible also said that the son is Truly God!
    ONE and ONLY SON who is Truly God.


    The Greek text never said such a thing, jammin.  There are more and more English Bibles, sponsored by Trinitarian Organizations, that twist the words of scripture and produce “translations” that say Jesus is “truly God” – but that claim was never in any Greek text written by the disciples.


    so you accept that you are a man and not man?? right??
    LOL

    is your nature HUMAN? yes or no?

    if yes, do you believe that you are HUMAN? yes or no?

    #310915
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,11:13)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 27 2012,17:23)
    Mike,

    The main point is that Yahshua was speaking of the esteem (“glory”) that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began and not that he pre-existed his birth as an actual being and that he was with Him in the beginning. Just as an earthly father looks forward to having a child and has esteem for that child that has not yet come into existence.


    Frank,

    Obviously, I completely disagree.  I not only disagree with your interpretation, but also can't think of any scriptural or secular writing in the history of the world that would support such an interpretation of the words in John 17:5.

    Also, your interpretation centers on a FATHER holding “in his presence” some future esteem for his unborn child.  It does NOT center on that child someday saying, “Father, give me the esteem I WAS HAVING with you a long time ago.”  How could the child say he was having that esteem if he wasn't even around yet to have it?  ???

    And finally Frank, my understanding is not based ONLY on 17:5.  I take into consideration these other things Jesus said:

    No one has seen God except for him who came from God.

    I came down from heaven, and will ascend to where I was before.

    Before Abraham was born, I have existed.

    You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

    There are many more things Jesus said, not to mention the dozens of teachings from the writers of the NT that also support the pre-existence of Jesus.

    And what do the non-preexisters combat all those scriptures with?  Odd interpretations of scriptural words, that make no sense at all, and the ADDITION of words into scriptures so that the scripture teaches what they WANT it to teach.

    Frank, take a look at this thread.  There are about 50 scriptures listed in the first post that support the pre-existence of Jesus Christ.


    Mike,

    Well, I did not see that coming! Really! ? You completely disagree with me? :D

    You must also believe that Father Yahweh does not know the future and did not plan for Yahshua being born, right? If so, then you also believe that Yahshua believed this same foolishness.

    Your perverted translation:

    Quote
    No one has seen God except for him who came from God.

    More accurate translations:

    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

    No one has ever seen God. God's only Son, the one who is closest to the Father's heart, has made him known. – GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

    No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him. – King James 2000 Bible (©2003)

    No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him. – American King James Version

    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – American Standard Version

    No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – Douay-Rheims Bible

    No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – Darby Bible Translation

    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – English Revised Version

    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – Webster's Bible Translation

    No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father's bosom–He has made Him known. – Weymouth New Testament

    No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him. – World English Bible

    God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father — he did declare. – Young's Literal Translation

    Quote
    I came down from heaven, and will ascend to where I was before.

    You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

    Yahshua Came Down From Heaven

    Your perverted translation:

    Quote
    Before Abraham was born, I have existed.

    “Before Abraham Was, I Am”?

    I am quite aware of the Scripture verses and passages that those who promote the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine of the pre-existence of Yahshua.

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310958
    jammin
    Participant

    mike said:NO, it means I am A man if I'm in the form/nature of MAN.

    he is not accepting that he is man. he wants “a man”. LOL
    there is nothing wrong with man and a man. this boy is making himself complicated LOL
    we are talking about form/nature here boy. you are HUMAN/MAN by nature.

    God said he is a God.

    Exodus 6:7 KJV
    And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians

    1 Chronicles 17:24
    Let it even be established, that thy name may be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God of Israel, even a God to Israel: and let the house of David thy servant be established before thee.

    study hard boy LOL

    #310970
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,09:56)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,21:12)
    these people are putting their own words in the bible.
    there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14


    You are right.  That's why Ed has to bring the word “IN” from a completely different scripture in 2 Cor to help him “twist” John 1:14.

    Ed, you're not allowed to borrow the word “IN” from 2 Cor 5:19 and place it into John 1:14.  :)

    (Btw, “NO”, it is not “an alternate account of John 1:14”.  Nor would it teach what you want it to teach if it was.  The Word became flesh and had the glory of the Son of God, right?  So if you are saying the Word WAS God, then you are also saying that God became flesh and had the glory of His own Son.)


    Hi Mike,

    “the Word was God” (John 1:1)
    “God was in Christ” (2 Cor 5:19)

    Big stretch huh?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #310971
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,09:56)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,21:12)
    these people are putting their own words in the bible.
    there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14


    You are right.  That's why Ed has to bring the word “IN” from a completely different scripture in 2 Cor to help him “twist” John 1:14.

    Ed, you're not allowed to borrow the word “IN” from 2 Cor 5:19 and place it into John 1:14.  :)

    (Btw, “NO”, it is not “an alternate account of John 1:14”.  Nor would it teach what you want it to teach if it was.  The Word became flesh and had the glory of the Son of God, right?  So if you are saying the Word WAS God, then you are also saying that God became flesh and had the glory of His own Son.)

    It is not hard to believe that Mike is actually agreeing with jammin on this point! They are like two peas in a pod! :D

    Mike,

    It is called harmonizing the context of Scripture as a whole. The fact is, you are not allowed to take a single verse out of an erroneous translation of Scripture as a whole and build your own personal belief from that one erroneously translated verse. Scripturally speaking, those who do this are referred to as “they that are unlearned ['ignorant, ill-taught, untaught'] and unstable ['people who aren't sure of what they believe, unstedfast, unsettled'] wrest ['twist, distort, pervert, mean something quite different'], AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION (2 Kepha [Peter] 3:16).

    The Prophet Yeremyah speaks righteously of people such as yourself in Scripture Yeremyah Chapter 23.

    Again, you have been owned in the forum that you moderate!  :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310972
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 29 2012,05:14)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,09:56)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,21:12)
    these people are putting their own words in the bible.
    there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14


    You are right.  That's why Ed has to bring the word “IN” from a completely different scripture in 2 Cor to help him “twist” John 1:14.

    Ed, you're not allowed to borrow the word “IN” from 2 Cor 5:19 and place it into John 1:14.  :)

    (Btw, “NO”, it is not “an alternate account of John 1:14”.  Nor would it teach what you want it to teach if it was.  The Word became flesh and had the glory of the Son of God, right?  So if you are saying the Word WAS God, then you are also saying that God became flesh and had the glory of His own Son.)


    Hi Mike,

    “the Word was God” (John 1:1)
    “God was in Christ” (2 Cor 5:19)

    Big stretch huh?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed J,

    TWO THUMBS WAY UP! :)

    Mike,

    So it is now known that you have been owned! :D

    Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work: If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up! Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm. But how can one keep warm alone? Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not easily broken (Ecclesiastes 4:9-12).

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310973
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 29 2012,05:14)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,09:56)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,21:12)
    these people are putting their own words in the bible.
    there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14


    You are right.  That's why Ed has to bring the word “IN” from a completely different scripture in 2 Cor to help him “twist” John 1:14.

    Ed, you're not allowed to borrow the word “IN” from 2 Cor 5:19 and place it into John 1:14.  :)

    (Btw, “NO”, it is not “an alternate account of John 1:14”.  Nor would it teach what you want it to teach if it was.  The Word became flesh and had the glory of the Son of God, right?  So if you are saying the Word WAS God, then you are also saying that God became flesh and had the glory of His own Son.)


    Hi Mike,

    “the Word was God” (John 1:1)
    “God was in Christ” (2 Cor 5:19)

    Big stretch huh?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    LOL

    keep dreaming ed
    LOL

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