John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,821 through 9,840 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #310564
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 25 2012,06:03)
    the bible said that Christ BECAME FLESH
    BUT BEFORE THAT, HE WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD.


    That's right, jammin.

    Jesus was in the form OF God. Those words mean that Jesus was someone OTHER THAN God.

    #310572
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,03:19)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 24 2012,18:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2012,08:15)
    The noun form is here used, not the adjectival theios, which would be required to simply classify the Word as “god-like.”


    Mike,

    It is completely up to you to do some research on the word 'theos'………………


    My initial research is in green letters above, Frank.  Do YOU have any research to REFUTE the information above?


    You call that “research”? :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310577
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,11:24)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2012,08:15)
    The noun form is here used, not the adjectival theios, which would be required to simply classify the Word as “god-like.”


    You call that “research”?  :D


    Yes Frank.  Contrary to YOUR beliefs, research doesn't necessarily have to contain a million irrevelant facts that have nothing to do with the issue.

    Right now the issue is:  Can “theos” in John 1:1c be translated as an ADJECTIVE, such as “sublime”?

    My research says NO, because it was not written in the adjectival form “theios”.  

    Do YOU have any research to REFUTE my research?

    #310582
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 26 2012,04:24)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,03:19)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 24 2012,18:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2012,08:15)
    The noun form is here used, not the adjectival theios, which would be required to simply classify the Word as “god-like.”


    Mike,

    It is completely up to you to do some research on the word 'theos'………………


    My initial research is in green letters above, Frank.  Do YOU have any research to REFUTE the information above?


    You call that “research”?  :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Mike,

    If you enjoy entering into an endless dispute concerning Greek grammar, then I would suggest that you enter this discussion:

    http://forums.carm.org/vbb….hn-1-1c

    As for me, no, I have no desire whatsoever to enter into an endless dispute with you over Greek grammar which is obvious you have no understanding whatsoever of.  :D

    #310588
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,11:52)
    Mike,

    If you enjoy entering into an endless dispute concerning Greek grammar……………….


    I'm not looking for an “endless dispute”, Frank.  I'm simply asking, since you are fond of “the logos was sublime”, if you actually have any support that the word “theos” in 1:1c can be used as an adjective?

    Apparently you don't.

    #310589
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    The Second Hebrew Letter Beit — b

    The second letter of the Hebrew alphabet is beit. It literally means, “house,” “tent,” “dwelling place,” or even “palace” or “temple.” It has a numerical value of “2.” To the Jews, it is the letter of blessing and of creation itself, that which was created, being separate from YEHOVAH God. That is, it pictures the original creation being separate from the Father, but coming from Him. In a very real sense, therefore, it pictures the Logos, the Word of God — the Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH God the Father that will return to this earth and take up residence in the Temple in Jerusalem!

    Notice! YEHOVAH God's Shekinah Glory, or the “Logos,” was and is the “Number Two” in the Universe, as the form of YEHOVAH God that can be observed by mankind! The apostle John tells us of the Logos, the Word of God — the Shekinah Glory: “In the beginning was the Word [Greek, Logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was [also] God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men….And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” (John 1:1-3, 14).

    In the Aramaic version of the New Testament we find these verses rendered in the following fashion —

    Verse 1: In the beginning [of creation] there was the MANIFESTATION; and that MANIFESTATION was with God [YEHOVAH]; and God [YEHOVAH] was [the embodiment of] that MANIFESTATION.

    Verse 2: This [the MANIFESTATION] was in the beginning with God [YEHOVAH].

    Verse 3: Everything was within his [more correctly, IT'S] power, [otherwise] nothing would ever exist.

    Verse 4: Through him [it, the MANIFESTATION] was life and life became the spark of humanity.

    Verse 5: And that [ensuing] fire [the MANIFESTATION] lights the darkness and darkness does not overshadow it [the MANIFESTATION].

    If we replace the word “Manifestation” with the words “Shekinah Glory” in these verses of John, then we clearly see that “The Word” is none other than YEHOVAH'S Shekinah Glory!

    Verse 1: In the beginning [of creation] there was the SHEKINAH GLORY; and that SHEKINAH GLORY was with God [YEHOVAH]; and God [YEHOVAH] was [the embodiment of] that SHEKINAH GLORY.

    Verse 2: This [the SHEKINAH GLORY] was in the beginning with God [YEHOVAH].

    Verse 3: Everything was within his [IT'S — the SHEKINAH GLORY'S] power, [otherwise] nothing would ever exist.

    Verse 4: Through him [it, the SHEKINAH GLORY] was life and life became the spark of humanity.

    Verse 5: And that [ensuing] fire [the SHEKINAH GLORY] lights the darkness and darkness does not overshadow it [the SHEKINAH GLORY].

    Since the publication of the King James Version of the Bible in 1611 this, and almost all versions that have stemmed from it, have attached the masculine gender to the Greek concept of the “Logos” to explain the presence of the Shekinah Glory at the Creation. Unfortunately, due to this gender change, and the modern Christian's lack of understanding of the Logos concept in the environment of 1st. century Greek philosophy, most have blindly taken the “Word” to mean a pre-existence of Yeshua the Messiah! Nothing could be further from the truth!

    Any one of the eight English translations of the Bible prior to 1611 (the Tyndale Bible (1535), the Matthew Bible (1535), the Taverner Bible (1539), the Great (Cranmer's) Bible (1539), the Whittingham Bible (1557), the Geneva Bible (1560) and Bishop's Bible (1568) assign no gender to the “Word” and simply call it “it,” such as in John 1:3: “By IT all things were made. Without IT nothing was made.” The Coverdale Bible (1550) has “THE SAME” rather than “it.” This seems like a strange way of referring to Yeshua the Messiah!

    John nowhere indicates that this “Word” or “Logos” is anything else but the Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH god!

    Finally, in Revelation 1:2, “the Word of God” is clearly separated from the Messiah — notice!

       This is the revelation which God gave to Yeshua the Messiah, so that he could show his servants what must happen very soon. He communicated it by sending his angel to his servant Yochanan [John], who bore witness to THE WORD OF GOD AND to the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah….

    Most of the Bible expositors think that “In the beginning was the Word…and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1, 14) shows conclusively that the Word of verse 1 must be Yeshua the Messiah. They think that “In the beginning was Yeshua…and Yeshua was made flesh,” that is, the pre-existent Messiah emptied himself of his divinity and became a human being!

    This is the surface conclusion reached by most of the Bible expositors — until the CONTEXT is properly evaluated.

    In the first verse it says: THE WORD WAS GOD. Who was this God? Was it the Father (YEHOVAH) or the Son (Yeshua)? John plainly tells us who “the Word” was. He says the Word was God. Now we must find out who God is, and we will then know who or what “the Word” is.

    In verse 18 of this same chapter John tells us that “God” is the Father (YEHOVAH) — NOT Yeshua the only begotten Son. If we believe what John is saying (that “God” is the Father), then let us examine the scriptures back to verse 1. In verse 13 “God” must refer to the Father (YEHOVAH) — likewise in verse 12. In verse 2 we find “God” again. Staying in context with John 1:18, John tells us that “God” is the Father (YEHOVAH) — NOT the Son. Verse 1 has the word “God” two times. Again, staying in context with verse 18, we find John telling us that “God” is the FATHER, not the Son!

    According to John there is only ONE entity — although appearing in different forms — mentioned in John 1:1. And that One is YEHOVAH God the Father, the Almighty Creator!

    In John 1:14 this same “Word” that was an integral part of YEHOVAH God the Father (since the “Word” was with or in the Father) anointed His human Son Yeshua. The “Word” in John 1:14 was not a pre-existing Yeshua. The “Word” — or “Shekinah Glory” of YEHOVAH God the Father anointed Yeshua, the second Adam. A similar event occurred previously when the “Shekinah Glory” of YEHOVAH God the Father produced a fleshly tabernacle for the first Adam.

    Looking at the Aramaic version of John 1:1 and 14 we read:

    Verse 1: “In the beginning [of creation] there was the MANIFESTATION [SHEKINAH GLORY]; and that MANIFESTATION [SHEKINAH GLORY] was with God [YEHOVAH]; and God [YEHOVAH] was [the embodiment of] that MANIFESTATION [SHEKINAH GLORY].”

    Verse 14: “And the MANIFESTATION [SHEKINAH GLORY] became flesh and made his [correctly, “its”] dwelling amongst us and we saw His [YEHOVAH's Shekinah] glory, glory as [that] uniquely [of the nature] of the Creator, full of grace and blessing.”

    YEHOVAH God the Father dwelt — or “tabernacled” — with His earthly creation on a number of occasions — both in His Shekinah Glory form AND in a human form! Notice Genesis 18, which shows YEHOVAH God the Father appearing to Abraham in a “human” form.

    Did the Logos always exist, together with the Father, as a separate Being and member of the Godhead? Not at all! The Logos or Word was clearly a component or form of YEHOVAH God that could be viewed by human-beings without dire consequences. Notice what the Encyclopedia Judaica says about the Word or Shekinah Glory:

       According to Saadiah Gaon [882-942 C.E.], the Shekhinah is identical with kevod ha-Shem (the glory of God”), which served as an INTERMEDIARY BETWEEN GOD AND MAN during the prophetic experience. He suggests that the “glory of God” is the Biblical term, and Shekhinah the Talmudic term for the created splen
    dor of light which ACTS AS AN INTERMEDIARY BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, and which sometimes TAKES ON HUMAN FORM. Thus when Moses asked to see the glory of God, HE WAS SHOWN THE SHEKHINAH, and when the prophets in their visions saw God in HUMAN LIKENESS, what they actually saw WAS NOT GOD HIMSELF BUT THE SHEKHINAH (see Saadiah's interpretation of Ezekiel 1:26, I Kings 22:19, and Daniel 7:9 in Book of Beliefs and Opinions 2:10).

    E. W. Bullinger says of the number “two”:

       “We now come to the spiritual significance of the number Two. We have seen that One excludes all difference, and denotes that which is sovereign. But Two affirms that there is a difference — there is another; while One affirms that there is not another!

       “This difference may be for good or for evil. A thing may differ from evil, and be good; or it may differ from good, and be evil. Hence, the number Two takes a two- fold colouring, according to the context.

       “It is the first number by which we can divide another, and therefore in all its uses we may trace this fundamental idea of division or difference” (Number in Scripture, page 92).

    YEHOVAH GOD the Father is “Number One.” The “Word” or Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH God is “Number Two.” It is the form or IMAGE of the Father that can be observed by man — the very stamp impress, the very express likeness! Thus, although “two” could have been different from the “One,” the Logos or Shekinah Glory is in reality exactly like the “One” in every way — a true presentation of the Father! It is the form of YEHOVAH God that acts as as intermediary between YEHOVAH God and man, and which can sometimes take on a human form as we observed in Genesis 18.
    SOURCE

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310590
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:35)
    If we replace the word “Manifestation” with the words “Shekinah Glory” in these verses of John, then we clearly see that “The Word” is none other than YEHOVAH'S Shekinah Glory!


    So then it was Jehovah's glory that was made flesh, and dwelled among mankind with the glory of Jehovah's SON?   ???

    Hmmm………….  How can the glory of God have its own glory?  And why would the glory of the glory of God be the glory of the Son of God?  

    Strange brew, Frank.  Non-preexisters are apparently blind to the NONSENSE they have to con themselves into believing – just to avoid believing what the scriptures actually teach.

    #310591
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,05:34)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,11:52)
    Mike,

    If you enjoy entering into an endless dispute concerning Greek grammar……………….


    I'm not looking for an “endless dispute”, Frank.  I'm simply asking, since you are fond of “the logos was sublime”, if you actually have any support that the word “theos” in 1:1c can be used as an adjective?

    Apparently you don't.


    Mike,

    And you are fond of Father Yahweh's “Word” as an actual being that was with Him in the beginning and was “a god” that I find very foolish!  :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310592
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,05:39)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:35)
    If we replace the word “Manifestation” with the words “Shekinah Glory” in these verses of John, then we clearly see that “The Word” is none other than YEHOVAH'S Shekinah Glory!


    So then it was Jehovah's glory that was made flesh, and dwelled among mankind with the glory of Jehovah's SON?   ???

    Hmmm………….  How can the glory of God have its own glory?  And why would the glory of the glory of God be the glory of the Son of God?  

    Strange brew, Frank.  Non-preexisters are apparently blind to the NONSENSE they have to con themselves into believing – just to avoid believing what the scriptures actually teach.


    YEHOVAH's Shekinah Glory
    Most people have little understanding of what the Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH God is, let alone realize the prophetic significance of this manifestation of God. The Jewish rabbis coined this extra-biblical expression, and it is form of a Hebrew word that literally means “he caused to dwell” — signifying that it was a divine visitation of the presence or dwelling of YEHOVAH God on this earth. In order to fully understand the prophetic passages in the book of Revelation, we need to thoroughly grasp the concept of the physical manifestations of our Creator God.
    John D. Keyser

    Yehovah's Shekinah Glory in History – Part 1
    John D. Keyser

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310595
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:59)
    Most people have little understanding of what the Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH God is, let alone realize the prophetic significance of this manifestation of God.


    So a “manifestation of God” was made flesh, and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's SON? ???

    Doesn't it make more sense that the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son was in fact God's only begotten Son?

    #310596
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:46)
    Mike,

    And you are fond of Father Yahweh's “Word” as an actual being that was with Him in the beginning and was “a god” that I find very foolish!


    Yes Frank,

    I am quite fond of beliefs that are actually taught in the scriptures.  We know Jesus is a god, for he is called such.  We know he is not the Most High God, for that One is his God and Father.  And we know the Word was an actual being from Rev 19:13.  We also know that all things were said to have been created through the Word, AND through Jesus.

    There are also many more things we know from scripture that support my belief.  I've listed only a couple.

    But, concerning our current dispute, we KNOW that “a god” is a possible translation of the Greek text in John 1:1c. I have shown expert testimony that “sublime” is NOT a possibility. So…………. will you continue to use “sublime” in spite of this testimony – and just pretend that this testimony doesn't exist? Will you produce expert testimony of your own to support “sublime”? What exactly will you do, Frank?

    #310603
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,11:19)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:59)
    Most people have little understanding of what the Shekinah Glory of YEHOVAH God is, let alone realize the prophetic significance of this manifestation of God.


    So a “manifestation of God” was made flesh, and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's SON?  ???

    Doesn't it make more sense that the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son was in fact God's only begotten Son?


    Mike,

    Yes, Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word was MANIFEST (MADE KNOWN) in the flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua! How many times do I have to tell you what it is that I believe before you get it through you thick head? This makes perfect sense to me!

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310604
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,11:23)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,12:46)
    Mike,

    And you are fond of Father Yahweh's “Word” as an actual being that was with Him in the beginning and was “a god” that I find very foolish!


    Yes Frank,

    I am quite fond of beliefs that are actually taught in the scriptures.  We know Jesus is a god, for he is called such.  We know he is not the Most High God, for that One is his God and Father.  And we know the Word was an actual being from Rev 19:13.  We also know that all things were said to have been created through the Word, AND through Jesus.

    There are also many more things we know from scripture that support my belief.  I've listed only a couple.

    But, concerning our current dispute, we KNOW that “a god” is a possible translation of the Greek text in John 1:1c.  I have shown expert testimony that “sublime” is NOT a possibility.  So…………. will you continue to use “sublime” in spite of this testimony – and just pretend that this testimony doesn't exist?  Will you produce expert testimony of your own to support “sublime”?  What exactly will you do, Frank?


    Mike,

    FACT: Nowhere in Scripture does it actually teach that Father Yahweh's word was an actual being that was with Him in the beginning and was “a god”! :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310605
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,03:37)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 25 2012,06:03)
    the bible said that Christ BECAME FLESH
    BUT BEFORE THAT, HE WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD.


    That's right, jammin.

    Jesus was in the form OF God.  Those words mean that Jesus was someone OTHER THAN God.


    that is just your illusion again mike.i did not say that the father is the son. the son is not the father. the father is not the son.
    but they have the same nature and that is nature God.
    are you in the form of MAN?? does it mean that you are not MAN if you have the form/nature of MAN?

    yes or no???

    are you an animal mike??? yes or no?

    ———-

    Christ became flesh. the flesh body died.
    that is what the bible says.
    Christ had a truly human body (1tim 2.5)

    of course the father did not become flesh. the son did that for us.
    for those who believe Christ as the only son of God (john3.16). for those who believe that he is God and Lord. (john 20.28)

    #310632
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,03:35)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 24 2012,22:26)
    Jammin doctrines is: Truly God spoke in behalf of truly God and more worst is, his God/Nature became or transformed into human nature. Meaning Jammin is no more truly God. God became human.


    Not only became human, but DIED.  My God never died, because my God CAN'T die.


    Quote
    Not only became human, but DIED. My God never died, because my God CAN'T die.

    Mike,

    WHAT IS YOUR GOD MIKE???

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS THE ONLY GLORIFIED GOD

    CHARLES

    #310634
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,01:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2012,01:52)
    Mike,

    According to your words you believe the Son, a being with a ghost body, transformed into a human being.


    A being with a “spiritual” body, Kerwin.  Jesus was existing in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being, right?  So would you say God has a “ghost body”?

    Anyway, whatever form in which Jehovah exists is the form in which Jesus was existing before being made flesh.

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2012,01:52)
    You object because the method of this wonder is not written in John 1:14 though it is clearly written other places in various forms.

    The method is that the Utterance of God becomes human whenever God writes it on a person's heard and places it in them.


    You are correct that EVENTUALLY, the word of God will be written on each man's heart, so no one will have to ask his neighbor about God.  (Jeremiah 31:33-34)  That time is in the future, not now.  If it was now, then we wouldn't still be trying to fulfill Jesus' last assignment of teaching the Kingdom of God to the four corners of the earth, right?

    Also, you pretend to not understand the various meanings of “word” in the Bible.  Surely you are adept enough to understand the difference between a written word from a man, a spoken word from God, and an individual being who has the title “the Word of God”, right?

    Jesus is an individual being who is called “the Word of God”, yet the being of Jesus Christ is not “the word of God” which will be written on the hearts of all men in the future.  Can you recognize the TWO DIFFERENT meanings of “word of God” here?


    Mike,

    Quote
    A being with a “spiritual” body, Kerwin. Jesus was existing in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being, right? So would you say God has a “ghost body”?

    * A ghost is said to be composed of spirit and so has a body of sorts.
    * God is not created and therefore should not be thought of as being created.
    * no body can contain God.
    * God is the base force by which all that exists, exists. His Spirit is the elemental force of righteousness and holiness.
    * He uses the bodies of of others for his purpose; and that is why at certain times angels are called Jehovah.

    #310684
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,19:22)
    Mike,

    Yes, Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word was MANIFEST (MADE KNOWN) in the flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua! How many times do I have to tell you what it is that I believe before you get it through you thick head? This makes perfect sense to me!


    And how many times do I have to tell you that the word “IN” is not in John 1:14?

    John teaches us that the Word BECAME flesh – not that the Word “was manifested IN the flesh of God's Son Yahshua”.

    Your understanding relies upon ADDING a word to the scripture, Frank. It is only one little word, but that word completely CHANGES the teaching. Are you happy with CHANGING the teaching of John 1:14 so your doctrine comes out on top?

    #310685
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2012,19:29)
    Mike,

    FACT: Nowhere in Scripture does it actually teach that Father Yahweh's word was an actual being that was with Him in the beginning and was “a god”!


    Sure it does – in MANY places.  Here's just one of them:

    John 17:5
    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    If THE BEING Jesus said that HE had glory in God's presence before the world began, then it is clear that THE BEING Jesus DID have glory in God's presence before the world began. Either that, or your Lord lied to you, Frank. Which is it?

    #310686
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 25 2012,19:57)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2012,03:37)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 25 2012,06:03)
    the bible said that Christ BECAME FLESH
    BUT BEFORE THAT, HE WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD.


    That's right, jammin.

    Jesus was in the form OF God.  Those words mean that Jesus was someone OTHER THAN God.


    that is just your illusion again mike.i did not say that the father is the son. the son is not the father. the father is not the son.


    Well jammin,

    If the Son is not the Father, and 1 Cor 8:6 teaches us that our one God is the Father, and Jesus teaches us the the Father is the only true God, what's left for you?

    If the Father is God, and Jesus is NOT the Father, what does that tell you?

    #310687
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 26 2012,03:36)
    Mike,

    WHAT IS YOUR GOD MIKE???


    The Spirit Being who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them.

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