John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,921 through 25,940 (of 25,987 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #946909
    Keith
    Participant

    One can be mislead into thinking they have the son- Matt 7:21-23

    #946910
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It is true that it is God whom we should seek. Jesus Christ is the mediator of this, so it is through him that we come to the Father. I think many denominations teach that Jesus is the destination when it is the Father.

    #946913
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……YES……Jesus said the ….“greatest commandment ” Is to love the lORD your God , with “ALL” your heart, “ALL” your mind, “ALL” your soul, “ALL“ your strength, and the “SECOND” is like unto it,  (but it is not the same). “You shall love , your neighbor as yourself “.

    On these “TWO” hung “all” the law and the prophets”.

    A door has ” TWO” hinges, they both support the door, but they are not the exact same hinge.  There is a first hing and there is a second hinge they both work to support the same door , so it is with the love of God, the “FIRST LOVE IS THE LOVE FOR “the LORD OUR GOD ,the “SECOND LOVE IS THE LOVE FOR YOUR NEIGHBOR,  Jesus and the rest of man kind,  They are similar, but are not the ” THE EXACT SAME.

    That was the fall of the church at Ephesus in revelations.  They replaced Jesus as their “FIRST LOVE”, and was rejected for doing that, and told to repent or their candle stick would be removed.  We need to make sure we don’t make that same mistake or we also will be rejected at the return of Jesus>

    Peace and love to you and yours  Proclaimer…….gene

     

     

     

    #946914
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Gene

    You

    That was the fall of the church at Ephesus in revelations.  They replaced Jesus as their “FIRST LOVE”, and was rejected for doing that, and told to repent or their candle stick would be removed.  We need to make sure we don’t make that same mistake or we also will be rejected at the return of Jesus>

     

    Me

     

    Gene,

    Concerning the church of Ephesus, you have no biblical or historical evidence to prove what you are saying.
    In my opinion this is because you deny/ignore the full divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    and therefore
    you place him in the category of “neighbor” as a mere creature, which he is not.

    🙏

    #946915
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..if you can’t read the text and see that is exactly what Jesus was telling them, them you simply are blind to the truth, IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean………….gene

     

    #946934
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    I am not sinless. Besides that, it is not hard to understand that another can pay your fine. God is merciful, but if you reject his mercy, then go ahead and pay your own fine. That is your choice.

    I wasn’t speaking of paying a “fine”; I’m speaking of taking on the guilt of another; assuming the punishment of the guilty. Simply paying a “fine” is a monetary extortion of breaking a law and is used for compliance; the bigger the monetary “fine”, the more likely one will remain compliant. Christianity teaches the Jesus paid your sin debt so one can live; he “assumed” your sin guilt; it was his death and blood that atones for the sins of mankind. However, G-d says he wishes no one to die and all to live. And how does G-d say one will “live”, by repenting and turning from one’s wickedness. Why do I need the Jesus since God has already given the path to life? (Ezekiel 18)

    Please explain how rejecting the Jesus is rejecting G-d’s mercy? Mercy comes from G-d, not through or because of a man.

    #946935
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    (DT) I’m still waiting for when G-d, speaking thru the prophets, said the blood of the messiah was to save mankind from eternal death and sin.

    (Proclaimer)Think about it, if God let out that part of his plan as you think he should have if it were true, then Jesus Christ would not have been sacrificed on a cross. Simple as that.

    This response makes no sense and doesn’t answer what has been asked. Why can’t you answer where it’s stated in the Tanakh the blood of the messiah was to save mankind from eternal death and sin?

    You said you are sinful and because of the Jesus’ sacrifice and shedding of his blood your “sin debt” is paid. Is your heart truly repentful when asking forgiveness, have you turned from this sinful way; if not, what was the point of the Jesus’ sacrifice? Even under the “sacrificial system” if you weren’t truly repentant of the sin, the sacrifice was meaningless. Besides David said G-d was more interested in a repentant heart than a blood sacrifice (Ps 51:16-17).

    The true Messiah is spoken of in the Tanakh and what he will do and who he will be; did the Jesus fulfilled any of it? When one does read and study the Tanakh, G-d speak of a Messianic age where all will know who’s G-d, who the Messiah will be and what he will do, and speaks of restoring the nation of Israel; so G-d does reveal his plan in its entirety. According to Job 42:2 no purpose of G-d’s can be thwarted. Since G-d’s plan cannot be stopped, would it matter how much of is revealed; who can stop it?

     

    but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the [a]worlds unto our glory: which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory: but as it is written,

    Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.

    You quote Paul who says “as it is written”; you’ll have to find that verse in the Tanakh for me, I haven’t found it yet. My study bible has a reference back to Isa 64:4 but the verses aren’t the same.

    Isa 64:4 From of old no one has heard or perceived by the ear, no eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him.

    What was Paul quoting, it sure wasn’t Isaiah. In fact, Paul wasn’t in the same universe of understanding of Isaiah and making up passages.

    Another example of why I call Paul a liar? Read Isa 64 and please find any reference to the messiah being crucified. I’ve already said if you want your eyes opened, start comparing every verse quoted from the Tanakh in the NT and see if it matches and is used in its original context. In this case Paul butchered it to make it say what he wanted it to say AND he’s relying on you to believe every word coming from his mouth and not verifying it. In the first century the gentiles couldn’t verify anything he said; we’re in the 21 century with access to multiple resources and am confused to why most don’t or won’t verify anything they’re told. I suppose it’s easier to keep smashing the “I Believe Button”, unfortunately miss what G-d really said. If christians would begin verify what they’re told is truth, there wouldn’t be a christian religion.

    #946936
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    (DT) What about Matt 5:43 where the Jesus says “you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy”; where did God said to “hate your enemy.”

    (Proclaimer) It does not say, “It is written”, but rather, “it hath been said”.

    So, who said to “hate your enemy”? It definitely ISN’T written within the Tanakh. In fact the opposite is written:

    Prov 24:17 While your enemies are falling, do not rejoice; when he trips himself, may your heart not be glad.

    Prov 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, feed him bread, and if thirsty, let him drink water.

    Neither of these passages suggest “hating” your enemy. So why did the Jesus add “hate your enemy” to Lev 19:18? To point out it was “said” and not “written” would mean it was a verbal teaching, who among the religious leaders would be teaching to hate your enemy? The Torah (first five books) teach how to treat your fellow man; even the Jesus states the “second” commandment is to love your neighbor. Again, who would have been “saying” or teaching to “hate your enemy”?

    Looking at the Sermon on the Mount, Matt 5:22 is another nugget of hypocrisy when the Jesus says “But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” Jesus says whoever calls someone a fool is in danger of hell fire and in Matt 23:17 he calls the scribes and Pharisees “FOOLS.” Is this a “do as I say, not as I do” moment? How does one continue to call the NT the “inspired word of G-d.” Guess the writer of Matthew forgot to proof read his writing.

    #946937
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    (DT) Matt 2:15 to Hosea 11:1; do they agree? Explain how if you believe they do.

    (Proclaimer) Carnality cannot see the deeper truths of scripture and wisdom. It is superficial. Jonah was in the belly of the big fish for 3 days and so the Son of Man was in the belly of the earth. Both rose from that hell.

    What does Jonah have to do with these passages? I’m speaking of the writer of Matthew taking Hosea out of context and somehow applying it to the Jesus when the context is explicitly a reference to Israel. The son spoken of in Hosea is Israel and not the Jesus! Carnality has nothing to do with reading and comprehension. Seems like you’re seeing things that aren’t there.

    Jesus is also an embodiment of Israel. Both are called Son. Both exit Egypt. Both spend 40 Days in the Wilderness. A day being of different lengths here of course. Jesus gives His teachings, much like Moses receiving the Law on Mount Sinai.

    Other than man’s explanation, can you support the Jesus is the “embodiment” of Israel with scripture? Aren’t we all sons of God? Other than the account given in Matthew, is there any other evidence the Jesus went to Egypt? The Jesus was “tempted” for 40 days, the Israelite’s where punished for lack of faith (not talking the NT hopey faith) in G-d; how are they related?

    Fulfilling Israel’s Role: In the Old Testament, Israel was meant to be a light to the nations, showing the world who God is. However, Israel often fell short of this mission. Jesus, as the “true Israel,” perfectly fulfills what Israel was meant to do—being the obedient Son of God and bringing redemption to the world.

    You say Israel “was” meant to be a light to the nations in the past tense?!?! So are you suggesting the “christian” is now “the light”!??! Would suggest taking a little time and read the Tanakh. G-d speaks of the restoration of Israel everywhere and in this restoration they will do what?

    #946938
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: Your style of writing is horrific and obnoxious …..

    Me: Fine, what about my intentions? I keep on writing in that particular style, for a reason NO?

    You: try paragraph format, it’s how the rest of the world actually writes.

    Me: Is it? Click on the address hereunder and you experience another type of HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS writing format!

    https://artlicursi.com/articles/paul%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Crevelation-mystery%E2%80%9D-proof-verse-outline

    Now, on the other hand,  who said that though you write in paragraph format, it is not also, HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS in its contents. It’s not annoying, NOT ONLY TO ME for sure, but also to all other Christians, especially those who are more spiritually minded, for sure also, MORE THAN YOU.

    Me: DON’T RUSH TO CONCLUSIONS, AGAIN TO REMIND YOU; MY PERSPECTIVES ARE SPIRITUAL!

    You: Keep telling yourself that!

    Yes, I keep telling that both to you and to others, especially all those like you, carnally minded still subject to the OT, spiritually dead,  and by saying that, I feel that I am not only being honest but also in this case, making you aware, that as much as what CONCERNS CHRIST is not of this world, I MEAN SPIRITUAL DIRECTLY THROUGHOUT FROM THE FATHER, John 8:23, likewise, both my perspectives and my writing format ARE ALSO NOT OF THIS WORLD, SPIRITUAL, precisely, expressed purposely in my writing format, according to you, HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS, consequently

    my writing format speaks for itself!

    Thus, I am to please no one on these forums, BUT CHRIST, Galatians 1:10, never mind you!  CARNALLY MINDED and SPIRITUALLY DEAD, WITH EVERY RESPECT, FROM MY END also

    HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS!!! as simple as that!

    On the other hand, DT, the TRUTH is, that as I mentioned above, your writing in paragraph format TO PLEASE THE WORLD and MEN, is still HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS, especially, when a person like you writes things CONCERNING CHRIST and His Gospel;

    not only full of errors but also lies.

    Asserted hereunder:

    You: Jesus isn’t divine.

    That Kind of language above DT, IS NOT ONLY HORRIFIC and OBNOXIOUS but confirms that SPIRITUALLY, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    You are still in EXILE,

    as you affirmed hereunder:

    You: “Jesus will gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel”

    DT. The Jewish people don’t believe in Christ!!!

    THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD LIKE THEIR OWN BELIEF OF THE OT! OBSOLETE!

    Now here this,

    NO CHRIST NO GOD, NO GOD NO CHRIST, AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    WE ARE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST! Asserted in

    John 3:29 He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom: ….

    THUS,  CHRIST IS OUR BRIDEGROOM NOT GOD THE FATHER,

    OUR FIRST LOVE,

    AND OUR TRUE PHYSICAL GOD and FATHER, John20:17, 1 John 5:20, 

    WHEN IT COMES TO OUR SUBSTANCE OF FLESH AND BLOOD, EX SATANIC OF THE OT. OBSOLETE!

    GOD THE FATHER IS OUR FATHER IN SPIRIT: asserted hereunder:

    John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in

    spirit and in truth…..

    John 10:30  I and the Father are one.

    John 14:8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me?

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Show us the Father?

    John 15:5 I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing.

    John 16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine…..

    John 17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.

    THE GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD!

    FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, SO ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD ,

    GOD WOULD BE ALL IN ALL!

    Now, get this into your stagnated MORTAL mind,

    SPIRITUALLY THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE STILL IN EXILE!

    Living in the OT. cursed, mortal, and dominated by the sexual reproductive process of flesh and blood satanic through Eve’s sin!

    OBSOLETE!!!

    Galatians 1:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,

    that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

     4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;

    ye are fallen from grace.

    5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    DT, Jesus, IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH! Luke 17:20-37 SPIRITUALLY, gathered the Jewish people and

    RETURNED them to “ISRAEL”, and not just the Jewish people but also the Gentiles LIKE ME!

    Asserted hereunder:

    Ephesians2:4But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins,

    hath quickened us TOGETHER IN CHRIST, (by whose grace you are saved,)

    6And hath raised us up together,

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, SPIRITUALLY WAS EMBODIED AUTHENTICALLY IN JESUS THE SON OF MAN ON HIS RESURRECTION, THE SECOND ADAM!

    THE FACT THAT HE CALLED HIMSELF THE SON OF MAN!

    The entire human race was gathered and returned to “ISRAEL”.

    BY WHAT PROCESS MAY I ASK ???

    2 Timothy 2:11 A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him.

    In the above it is more than clear that THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE , THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES, SPIRITUALLY, ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM AND ALL FOR HIM, at a particular moment in time,

    died with Jesus the Son of Man on the cross.  Depicted in

    John12:30Jesus answered, and said: This voice came not because of me,

    but for your sakes.

    31 Now is the judgment of the world:

    now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,

    will draw all things to myself.

    That’s enough of that for the moment! MORE IN THE NEXT POST! Now to :

    Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth:…

    Likewise, JESUS FOR OUR SAKE,

    ALSO RESURRECTED and WAS BORN AGAIN ANEW FROM THE EARTH, HENCE, LIKE ADAM, EMBODIED WITH THE HUMAN RACE ALL AUTHENTIC IN HIM, NOT YET PERFECT, AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.

    ….and breathed into his face the breath of life,

    and man became a living soul.

    Jesus, again for our sake, after His resurrection, that same evening at 6 Jewish time,

    also received and integrated with the Holy Ghost!

    AND BECAME A LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT!

    Attention please: Now the Holy Ghost, in Jesus’ soul, Luke 23:46  glorified in one substance with Jesus’ flesh body “THE WORD”  THE SON OF MAN, on Jesus’ death  as Jesus Christ;

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, BOTH GOD AND MAN, John 13:31, 32, John 17:2, 10, John4:36-38, Acts 20:28,

    Thus at 6 in the evening, Jesus’ resurrected body, “THE WORD” the Son of Man, and the Holy Ghost in full glory as Jesus Christ,

    both GOD AND MAN on Jesus’ death,

    INTEGRATED AND BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE, AND THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE EMBODIED AUTHENTIC IN JESUS’ RESURRECTED BODY GLORIFIED AND BECAME

    CHILDREN OF GOD IN CHRIST.

    THE TRUE GOD AND FATHER OF HUMANITY IN FLESH AND BLOOD! John17:10,John20:17

    AND WE ARE ON THE RIGHT-HAND OF GOD THE FATHER IN CHRIST JESUS THE SON OF GOD! asserted hereunder:

    Ephsians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus.

    HERE IT COMES ON A PLATE! CHEW, CHEW, and  CHEW!!!!

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE SPIRITUALLY ARE GATHERED AND RETURNED TO THE TRUE ISRAEL!!! CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD!

    ORIGINALLY AS THEY WERE IN GENESIS 1:1. John1:1. 

    ALL HEAVENLY HOSTS CARRIERS OF GOD, IN ONE GLORY THROUGH “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN,  ETERNAL LIFE, PRE-EXISTED AS THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD PHYSICALLY MANIFESTED IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE IF FULL LIGHT, ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM, and ALL FOR HIM, THE TRUE MORNING STAR, UNKNOWN FOR THE HEAVENLY HOSTS DURING THEIR PROBATION PERIOD FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR FREE WILL AND LOYALTY TO GOD!

    John: 1:30 This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me: because he was before me.

    31 And I knew him not,…

    also HINTED OUT hereunder:

    Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female:

    for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    ALL GATHERED and RETURNED TO THE TRUE ISRAEL!!!

    29And if ye be Christ’s, THEN ARE YE ABRAHAM’S SEED, and heirs according to the promise.

    ABRAHAM’S SEED:

    JESUS THE SON OF MAN, AND ETERNAL LIFE, THE ETERNAL PHYSICAL IMAGE  AND  CARRIER OF GOD THE FATHER, THE GOD OF ABRAM, PRE-EXISTED,  WHO CONCEIVED ABRAM IN HIS HEART/SOUL, TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY, IN HIS MOTHER’S WOMB.

    GOD’S ETERNAL SERVANT!

    Isaiah 42:1 BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him: my elect, MY SOUL delighteth IN HIM:

    I HAVE GIVEN my spirit upon him,

    I HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, ETERNAL LIFE, 1 John 1: 1,2

    THE FIRST-EVER ACT OF GOD :

    LET THEIR BE LIGHT! THE BIG BANG!

    6 I the Lord HAVE CALLED thee in justice,

    FROM THE VERY BEGINNING

    and taken thee by the hand, and PRESERVED YOU. And I HAVE GIVEN thee for a covenant of THE PEOPLE,

    GOD ALL-KNOWING BEFORE CREATION STARTED!

    for a light of the Gentiles:

    LUCIFER’S FALLEN REBELLIOUS ANGELS!

    I repeat; God SPIRITUALLY through Jesus’ death on the cross, GOD gathered both the Jews and the Gentiles and returned them to “ISRAEL” Luke 17:20-37

    ONE DOWN!

    You:  “the Jesus will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

    DT. SPIRITUALLY JESUS ALREADY BUILT THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM!!!

     

    Flesh counts for nothing in God’s own work; THE FACT THAT THE PROCESS OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD OF THE OT; SATANIC through the original sin, is OBSOLETE.

    WON BY JESUS’ DEATH ON THE CROSS!

    IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL  HIS WORK.

     

    All the above in the next post

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #946939
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    I feel like your questions are a waste of time.

    Ask me one intelligent question and I’ll give you an answer

    #946940
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I wasn’t speaking of paying a “fine”; I’m speaking of taking on the guilt of another; assuming the punishment of the guilty. Simply paying a “fine” is a monetary extortion of breaking a law and is used for compliance;

    Sin has a cost and so does breaking man’s law. The cost for breaking some laws is a fine. The cost for sin is death. Jesus Christ didn’t pay a monetary fine, because no amount of money will pay your way out of death. So if someone has to die  then the innocent lamb of God died and paid the price.

    Feel free to pay for your sin if you really want. I trust in the Messiah myself.

    #946950
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    I wasn’t speaking of paying a “fine”; I’m speaking of taking on the guilt of another; assuming the punishment of the guilty. Simply paying a “fine” is a monetary extortion of breaking a law and is used for compliance;

    Sin has a cost and so does breaking man’s law. The cost for breaking some laws is a fine. The cost for sin is death. Jesus Christ didn’t pay a monetary fine, because no amount of money will pay your way put of death. So if someone has to die then the innocent lamb of God died and paid the price.

    Feel free to pay for your sin if you really want.

    I finally realize the difference between christianity and what is written in the Tanakh concerning sin; christianity believes sin is a condition or an attribute/characteristic of humanity, consider themselves dirty rags, and thus need a “redeemer” to be forgiven; the Tanakh teaches sin is an action and you have a choice, obey G-d or not. G-d said to Cain “if you do not do right, sin couches at the door; its urge is toward you, yet you can be its master” (Gen 4:7). G-d says sin is an action and you are the master over it, not the other way around as Paul falsely teaches. Don’t know about you, I’ll listen to God and ignore Paul.

    By doing what G-d said (repent, turn from one’s wickedness, and then HE’LL remember it no more) I’m not “paying” for my own sin, I’m recognizing them and making a choice. I would seem christianity has created an easy way out of sin, sin all you want and leave it to the Jesus to pay the debt for your actions.

    #946951
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….Jesus and Paul were “ALL”, about mastering sin, and showed us all how that is accomplished.  It wasn’t them that created the “quick fix”, that was fallen so called “CHRISTIANITY”, that created the “quick fix”.
    Jesus and Paul,
    showed us all “the way” to overcome sin, and it’s the exact same way they did, by the exact same power, the power of the Holy Spirit from God the Father, that enables us to “OVERCOME”  OR “MASTER” , sin.

    Your belief of “self empowerment” through “self will”,  to overcome sin is a complete “false teaching”,  Tell me have you completely over came you sins?,  I highly doubt it.  If you haven’t yet then why not?,  seeing you believe you can “self will”. your own way out of sinning?. Let’s see how that works for you in the end.

    THERE is,  “only one way” to overcome sins, and that the exact “way” Jesus , demonstrated to “all”.  There is no other “WAY”.   Jesus did not pay off our sin debt that is true, we all must “REPENT”, BUT, JESUS SHOWED US ALL THE WAY, TO TRUE REPENTANCE AND  LIFE, He is the good and “FAITHFUL” Shepard,  sent from God to guide us, “his sheep”, to eternal life, by showing and “DEMONSTRATING”  to us the way to have that right relationship with God the Father, and it’s no different then his relationship with God is.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

    #946954
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    GeneBalthrop wrote:

    DT…….Jesus and Paul were “ALL”, about mastering sin, and showed us all how that is accomplished. It wasn’t them that created the “quick fix”, that was fallen so called “CHRISTIANITY”, that created the “quick fix”. Jesus and Paul, showed us all “the way” to overcome sin, and it’s the exact same way they did, by the exact same power, the power of the Holy Spirit from God the Father, that enables us to “OVERCOME” OR “MASTER” , sin.

    Wow do we differ in our understanding of sin; it was G-d who said mankind can be the master over sin. I didn’t read anywhere about a spirit figure who would assist in overcoming sin in Gen 4:7. Even in the KJV it says “if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his (sin’s) desire, and thou shalt rule over him (sin).” What part of G-d’s statement do you reject?

    When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of “Knowledge of Good and Evil” their eyes where opened to “good” and “evil” and “freewill” entered the world. They now knew the difference and were faced with choosing between the two.

     

    Your belief of “self empowerment” through “self will”, to overcome sin is a complete “false teaching”, Tell me have you completely over came you sins?, I highly doubt it. If you haven’t yet then why not?, seeing you believe you can “self will”. your own way out of sinning?. Let’s see how that works for you in the end.

    Where did you get “self empowerment” from, I have never spoken of nor have I implied it; please explain how asking for forgiveness, repenting, and turning from the sin is “self empowerment”; seems you are projecting again instead of asking a question to clarify. You seem to be under the spell you still need the Jesus to come before G-d. You will have to find the passage where G-d said you can only come before HIM thru a “secondary source.”

    With sin all are presented with a choice, continue in sin or repent and turn from it? It is G-d alone who forgives sin and when one truly repents and turns from it, HE remembers the sin no more (HIS words). G-d knows mankind is going to sin and HE provided a solution – repent and turn from it; however, man/christianity added the Jesus into the mix; but, according to G-d the Jesus is not required. Christianity also teaches G-d is looking for “perfection” that’s provided thru the Jesus and that couldn’t be more false, because G-d isn’t looking for perfection. Do you expect perfection from your children?

    Jesus said thinking of a sinful act was no different than committing it. I challenge that understanding, because thinking of something sinful isn’t the same as acting on that thought. For example, a person thinking about murder but never does is equal to someone who actually did?!? In a worldly sense, it would be absurd to convict someone of murder for merely thinking it. Explain how thoughts are now equal to action. The Jesus (or the writer of Matthew) created an impossible standard for anyone to live up to. Personally, someone who is tempted by a sin and doesn’t commit it is more admirable than the person who isn’t tempted by the same sin, the tempted faced the challenge of the sin and ruled over it as G-d said we can do.

    You claim to be “filled” with the “spirit”, do you still sin? If so, how; doesn’t the spirit lead you like it lead the Jesus?

    #946955
    Keith
    Participant

    Every mortal pays the wages of sin = death. Only the small amount of little flock that remain on earth during the tribulation, get changed in the twinkling of an eye-never to taste death. As well the great crowd of other sheep who are not of that fold get brought through Gods day of anger( Harmageddon) on earth and may never taste death providing they stand in faith once satan gets loosed for a little while.

    #946956
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Kieth,

    What you wrote sounds like something from the “Left Behind” book series by LaHaye and Jenkins.

    Back up your claim with scripture.

    #946957
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I finally realize the difference between christianity and what is written in the Tanakh concerning sin; christianity believes sin is a condition or an attribute/characteristic of humanity, consider themselves dirty rags, and thus need a “redeemer” to be forgiven; the Tanakh teaches sin is an action and you have a choice, obey G-d or not.

    Sin is wrongdoing.

    The LAW is the knowledge of wrongdoing.

    But what about those WITHOUT the law.

    The law is written is our HEARTS.

    The Old Testament took us to the knowledge that we are sinners.

    The New Testament is about grace, thus provides the solution to the problem.


    @DesireTruth
    , what you are proposing is that God should have left humanity in sin with no way out.

    God showed us that he is the Judge.

    Now he shows us that he is the Father of grace.

    To appreciate something truly, it needs to be hard earned.

    Otherwise, your attitude is one of indifference. Easy come easy go.

    #946958
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What does Jonah have to do with these passages? I’m speaking of the writer of Matthew taking Hosea out of context and somehow applying it to the Jesus when the context is explicitly a reference to Israel.

    Lol, you just proved my point. No point in explaining it. You are not ready.

    #946962
    Keith
    Participant

    Prov 2:21-22 assures some are not leaving the earth. Matt 24:22= Unless those days( trib and Gods day of anger) were cut short no flesh would be saved. The great crowd will not leave the earth, they will reside upon it forever-Psalm 37:11,29–Matt 5:5)

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