John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,941 through 25,960 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #946963
    Berean
    Participant

    @Keith

    The inheritance of the (new) earth for the elect will be after the millennium, not before. At the return of Christ, there will be the millennium which will be a period of judgment of the wicked by Christ and certain saints, and this will take place in Heaven.
    see more here
    👇
    http://www.cyberspaceministry.org/Lessons/Truth/Lesson25/eng-s25.html

    #946964
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, you said…….You claim to be “filled” with the “spirit”, do you still sin? If so, how; doesn’t the spirit lead you like it lead the Jesus?

    DT, show me where I ever said I was “filled” , with Holy Spirit. I said I have the Holy Spirit, (the spirit of truth) Abiding in me, that is how I know you are not of the truth , in rejecting Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul, and the whole New Testament,

    I am not perfect yet, but the spirit of God that abides in me, is working for that goal, just as it says,  ” for he (God) works in us, both to Will,  (cause us to desire) and do of his (God’s) good pleasure’.

    Jesus was right,  if we “lust” after a woman,  we are commuting adulatory with her in our hearts, so you are guilty of committing the act , (in your heart)> if you do it in your heart you will do it .  …..“so a man thinks, so he is”.   That is also written.  God judges not only our actions but also our hearts, as in the case of Cain, God know before Cain committed the act , what Cain would do. Think about that  “O” WISE ONE.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

     

    #946965
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer wrote:

    I finally realize the difference between christianity and what is written in the Tanakh concerning sin; christianity believes sin is a condition or an attribute/characteristic of humanity, consider themselves dirty rags, and thus need a “redeemer” to be forgiven; the Tanakh teaches sin is an action and you have a choice, obey G-d or not.

    Sin is wrongdoing.

    Sin is disobedience to G-d’s commands

    The LAW is the knowledge of wrongdoing.

    The law was 613 commands given to all of Israel by G-d and are how the people where to worship G-d and how they where to treat and respect their fellow man. To say it was to point out or give “knowledge” of wrongdoing is a Pauline lie, because it was more of a “code”, how one was to live. You really should look them up, because they aren’t the “burden” Paul tells you they are; they aren’t what you have been told they are. In fact, Moses before he died said they where easy to follow. Even John in his epistle said the same.

    But what about those WITHOUT the law.

    None are without G-d’s “law.” Explain how Noah was righteous before G-d, what did he do? Explain Abraham, the father of Israel, who had no “written law” to follow, was a friend of God? Job was a righteous man before G-d. Enoch walked faithfully with G-d and never saw death. There was something they followed, what was it? Hint…it wasn’t the Mosaic Law.

    The law is written is our HEARTS.

    Read the comment before; this is how the aforementioned people where able to follow after G-d. It’s always been written on our hearts; everyone knows the difference between good and evil (thanks to Adam and Eve) and it’s the decision one makes when presented a choice.

    The Old Testament took us to the knowledge that we are sinners.

    Another Pauline lie, the Tanakh didn’t bring one to the “knowledge we are sinners.” The Tanakh is broken into three parts: Torah, Prophets, and Writings; the Torah is the “law” you hate and are burdened by, but do recommend reading it, the prophets speak mostly of judgment and redemption of Israel, and the writings primarily give a historical account of the nation of Israel but also include “poetry” and “wisdom.”

    The New Testament is about grace, thus provides the solution to the problem.

    Beg to differ with this statement, G-d extended A LOT of “grace” AND “mercy” to the Israelite’s throughout the Tanakh…may want to give it a read again.

    @DesireTruth, what you are proposing is that God should have left humanity in sin with no way out.

    Except HE didn’t; HE told mankind they have control over sin (Gen 4:7), do you also reject G-d’s words? HE also said to repent, turn from your sin, and HE’LL remember it no more…sounds like a plan to me or do you prefer the words of Paul instead?

    God showed us that he is the Judge.

    Agree, G-d gives perfect justice to all.

    Now he shows us that he is the Father of grace.

    HE has always been, from creation, the Father of grace and mercy and justice and most importantly, LOVE.

    To appreciate something truly, it needs to be hard earned.

    Not sure what you mean here and how this would applied to G-d.

    Otherwise, your attitude is one of indifference. Easy come easy go.

    There is nothing “indifferent” in my attitude nor in what I’m posting, I’m rather passionate about what I’m writing, which has been met with “indifference” and anger. How dare I verify what is written and not blindly accept what I’m told! Shame on me…

    #946966
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    DT, show me where I ever said I was “filled” , with Holy Spirit. I said I have the Holy Spirit, (the spirit of truth) Abiding in me, that is how I know you are not of the truth , in rejecting Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul, and the whole New Testament,

    Of everything I have written in the last several months, what have you verified or proven wrong?

    Of course I reject the Jesus as the true Messiah, he fulfilled being Jewish; what about the rest the Messiah was to do.

    And Paul…what can I say? Need to read Acts 1:21-26 and tell me Paul is an Apostle. More like an impostor. The Jesus even says there are only 12 Apostles and Paul made himself the 13th.

    Again, can the NT be the inspired word of G-d if one lie is found within its pages? How many lies can there be and still be called “inspired”? Explain why most here don’t even agree with what’s written within this “inspired” book.

    I am not perfect yet, but the spirit of God that abides in me, is working for that goal, just as it says, ” for he (God) works in us, both to Will, (cause us to desire) and do of his (God’s) good pleasure’.

    Is G-d looking for perfection? Please cite the passage where G-d says HE expects perfection from mankind. This is another lie of Paul’s.

    Jesus was right, if we “lust” after a woman, we are commuting adulatory with her in our hearts, so you are guilty of committing the act , (in your heart)> if you do it in your heart you will do it . …..”so a man thinks, so he is”. That is also written.

    So if one lust after a woman they have committed the act of adultery (in their heart) even though the act was never committed?!?! Then to say if you do it in your heart to will actually do it?!?!? Do the men you associate with not have self control and proceeded to have an adulterous relationship with said woman. Think it may be time to find new friends. You quote Prov 23:7 as your proof, you may want to include verse 6 with it for context (eyes roll).

    God judges not only our actions but also our hearts, as in the case of Cain, God know before Cain committed the act , what Cain would do.

    You have a verse from the Tanakh where it says G-d judges our heart or does G-d look at the heart and know the desires of man? Of course G-d knew what Cain would do; the biggest take away with G-d’s conversation with Cain is the fact G-d told him he had power over sin. Why won’t you address this conflict of your Pauline teachings?

    #946967
    Keith
    Participant

    The ruling Throne is in heaven, but no where does it say the resurrected are in heaven. Only the ones in the first resurrection=the little flock are in heaven. The great crowd is not promised heaven anywhere in the bible.

    #946968
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, what do you do with this scripture……> Jer 17:10…., “I the LORD search the (heart) , I try the reins (mind) , even to give “every” man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings”.

    GOD THE FATHER EVEN TRYS PEOPLE BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BORN,  just as he did in the case of Jacob and Esau. Saying,  to Rebekah, “two nations are in your womb, and two manner of people, shall be separated from bowels, and the one expletive shall be stronger then the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.

    Now as the apostle PAUL brought out clearly, this was said “before they were born”, neither had done good or evil yet.  SO THIS SHOWS, us that God does choose people’s faits before they are even born.   So where does you “self willed” righteousness fit in that DT?

    Cloud Esau, have repented and changed his destiny? , I think not, neither can you or I on our own, change our hearts or our minds.  Only God the Father can do that. IMO, EVEN JESUS SAID YOU CAN’T EVEN COME TO HIM, “UNLESS” THE FATHER DRAW YOU”,  AND it is obvious you aren’t drawn to him , by the very words of your own mouth.

    Again I say to you, “if you reject the messenger, you are also rejecting the one who sent  him”.

    peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

     

    #946969
    Keith
    Participant

    God foretold things to show that his will, will always occur just as he says. Then the blind mortals can clearly see he is real and he is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. And that is a rare occurrence when God did that.

    God desires-ALL to repent and turn around so that they will not be destroyed=0 fate involved. They must choose using free will to listen to God.

    #946970
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Keith……I completely disagree with so-called “free Will salvation”., everything works through “cause and effect”.   God the Father is the “cause” of all salvation.  IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours Keith……..gene

    #946971
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    DT, what do you do with this scripture……> Jer 17:10…., “I the LORD search the (heart) , I try the reins (mind) , even to give “every” man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings”.

    What exactly am I suppose to do with it? It simply says G-d the examines heart and knows the mind; HE knows the true thoughts and desires of man; and will allow man to walk a path that’s not with HIM and allow them to fail. Don’t stop at the end of verse 10, keep reading.

    GOD THE FATHER EVEN TRYS PEOPLE BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BORN, just as he did in the case of Jacob and Esau. Saying, to Rebekah, “two nations are in your womb, and two manner of people, shall be separated from bowels, and the one expletive shall be stronger then the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.

    WHAT??? G-d “trys people before they are even born” and you come up with Esau and Jacob. Explain how they where “tried” before their birth; I’m not seeing where G-d examined the hearts of the two. In the Gen 25 passage G-d revealed to Rebekah who the two boys she was carrying where to be and they were as G-d spoke. I’m a bit confused at your train of thought.

    Now as the apostle PAUL brought out clearly, this was said “before they were born”, neither had done good or evil yet. SO THIS SHOWS, us that God does choose people’s faits before they are even born. So where does you “self willed” righteousness fit in that DT?

    Interesting statement. Since G-d chooses the fate of people even before they are born, you’ll have to explain how the Jesus had a choice in laying his life down for all mankind.

    You keep speaking of my “self willed righteousness” which means you either don’t understand or reject what G-d spoke to Cain (Gen 4:7) AND you either don’t understand or reject what G-d spoke thru Ezekiel (chapter 18) when HE said HE desires the death of no man and to repent and live. There is zero “self willed righteousness” in what G-d spoke, just whether or not you accept HIS words AND HIS words are freeing.

    I say to you, “if you reject the messenger, you are also rejecting the one who sent him”.

    For this to be true I would have to accept the Jesus as the Messiah and I can’t anymore; if you would take the time and verify what I’m writing instead of being combative, you would understand why I walked away from christianity and turned solely to G-d.

    #946972
    Keith
    Participant

    Jesus teaches–FEW will find the road that leads off into life( be saved, get grace, get salvation)

    So then you believe Gods will was to condemn the majority by predestination?

    John 3:16 disagrees with that reasoning.

    #946973
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Keith

    You

    The ruling Throne is in heaven, but no where does it say the resurrected are in heaven. Only the ones in the first resurrection=the little flock are in heaven. The great crowd is not promised heaven anywhere in  the bible.

     

     

     

    Me

    The Great Crowd

    Rev.7 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, of every nation, and kindred, and people, and tongue, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and with palms in their hands.
    [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb.
    [11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders, and about the four beasts, and fell down before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    [12] Saying, Amen! Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be to our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    [13] And one of the elders answered, What are these which are clothed in white robes? And where do they come from?
    [14] And I said to him, Lord, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    [15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    [16] And they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light upon them, nor any heat.
    [17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

    If we consider this text of Rev.7, indeed nothing tells us that they are in heaven.

    One thing is certain, that they are safe in the presence of God and the Lamb.

    But we must pay attention to the timing 👇 The great crowd before the throne of God is AFTER THE MILLENNIUM AND SO AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF THE WICKED IN HEAVEN

     

    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming 👉down from God out of heaven, 👈prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and👉 he will dwell with them👈, and they shall be his people and God👉 himself shall be with them,👈 and be their God.
    [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    [5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

    HEAVEN ON EARTH WILL BE AFTER JUDGMENT (Revelation 20)

    Isaiah 66:22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

     

    #946974
    Keith
    Participant

    There are no wicked in heaven, even as we speak. Satan and his angels were tossed out of heaven forever at the war in heaven,( the bruising of satans head) which is Rev 6:2–Both the events mentioned at 6:2 are explained in Rev 12= The war in heaven( ride of the white horse= righteous war) and the birth of Gods kingdom in heaven= He receives his crown.

    New Jerusalem(symbolic) is the bride of Christ

     

    At that point-Rev 21:1–No matter where one stands in all creation they stand before the throne. The Throne= Gods ruling gov’t rule with Jesus as Gods appointed king. The only govt there will ever be again.

    The tent= Gods full protection forever=Lasting peace forever.

    #946979
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Keith

    You

    There are no wicked in heaven, even as we speak. Satan and his angels were tossed out of heaven forever at the war in heaven….

    Me

    Amen!

     

    You

    the bruising of satans head) which is Rev 6:2–Both the events mentioned at 6:2 are explained in Rev 12= The war in heaven.

    Me

    But that’s not where Satan’s head was crushed yet, unfortunately!
    It was at the cross that this happened AND THE CHURCH OF THE END OF TIMES MUST CONFIRM IT WITHIN ITS OWN HOUSE AND LET IT BE MANIFESTED BEFORE THE WHOLE WORLD AND BEFORE THE ANGELS.

    Rom.16:20
    And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen

     

    You

    New Jerusalem(symbolic) is the bride of Christ

    Amen and ALSO A REAL BEAUTIFIL CITY!!!

     

     

    Revelation 6:1, 2: I looked when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four beasts say as with a voice of thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold a white horse; and he who sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given to him; and he went out conquering and to conquer.

    The “seven seals” bring us either to glorious victory or terrible defeat; either worship and praise at the coming of Jesus or calling to the rocks to be hidden from the wrath of the Lamb. It brings us to life or death. To the saved, Christ is the Lamb slain; to the lost, He is the avenging Lion of Judah. ​​God will wipe away every tear from the eyes of the saved. The lost will cry out in agony in that day.

    A fierce battle is raging between light and darkness, between Christ and Satan. Each of us takes part in this battle; we cannot escape.

    The horses symbolize God’s messengers. The messengers send and bring salvation and judgment together. Cooperation with God means life and victory; resistance means defeat and death.

    The four horses and their riders obviously symbolize the work of God’s angelic messengers on earth, bringing people to repentance and life and victory; protecting the righteous and keeping the wicked under constraint; pleading with the wicked in an attempt to bring them to repentance; bringing judgment and affliction to those who resist God’s grace, which might lead them to repentance; and final judgment and death to those who refuse to repent. Here we see God’s love and justice, His grace and righteous wrath, together. For centuries Bible students have seen these three panoramic series of events in history (the seven churches, the seven seals, and the seven trumpets) in parallel. Like a television camera’s field of vision moving back and forth, covering multiple aspects of a scene, these three journeys through world history reveal the footsteps of Christ leading to the final scenes of victory. This book is the “Apocalypse of Jesus Christ” in history.

    The white horse is naturally a symbol of righteousness, justice, and victory. The bow in the rider’s hand can represent the conviction that the Holy Spirit is pouring out into the hearts of human beings. “When the strongholds of kings are overthrown, when the arrows of God’s wrath strike the hearts of his enemies, his people will be safe in his hands.” “The words of the apostles were like sharp arrows from the Almighty, convincing men of their terrible guilt in rejecting and crucifying the Lord of Glory.” (Peaceful Conquerors, p. 41).

    The white horse is the proper emblem of the triumphs of the gospel in the first century of Christian history. It symbolized the church of the apostles, or Ephesus in Revelation 2:1.

    #946980
    Keith
    Participant

    The bible says Bruises satans head, not crushes it. Being tossed out of heaven forever is that bruising.

    The bride are living beings= the 144,000)-city is symbolic.

    #946981
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    I believe there is the bride and THE HOLY CITY.

    👇

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    [14] Blessed are they that do 👉his commandments, 👈 that they may have right 👉to the tree of life, and may 👉enter in through the gates into the city.👈

    #946982
    Keith
    Participant

    Rev 21:1-3— Is basically showing all things made back to perfection. Holy city and tent= Gods kingdom rule over all of mankind as a full protection forever. The bride mentioned are the ones who sit on thrones as kings and priests-a part of Gods govt rule over all creation at that point. Jesus is the main king.

    Jerusalem was Gods holy city in the OT, The throne was in Jerusalem. Now the throne(s) are in heaven. Its not actually coming down to the earth physically. Its likened to a tent = a covering for protection.

    #947003
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Had to step away due to life events, but what you wrote concerning Jacob and Esau bugged me and had to dig into it further. You wrote:

    GOD THE FATHER EVEN TRYS PEOPLE BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BORN, just as he did in the case of Jacob and Esau. Saying, to Rebekah, “two nations are in your womb, and two manner of people, shall be separated from bowels, and the one expletive shall be stronger then the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.

    Now as the apostle PAUL brought out clearly, this was said “before they were born”, neither had done good or evil yet. SO THIS SHOWS, us that God does choose people’s faits before they are even born.

    The story Paul speaks of is in Genesis 25 beginning in verse 19; HOWEVER, the second part Paul quotes (referring to Rom 9:12-13) is from Malachi 1:2-3. Nowhere in the Genesis passage does G-d ever say HE hated Esau – what you/Paul imply – HE only stated the older was going to serve the younger while they were still in the womb; the prophet Malachi hundreds of years later, after both Jacob and Esau are dead, prophesies against Edom and makes the statement of loving Jacob and hating Edom and, when read in context, is a prophecy against Edom. Who is Edom, in Gen 25:30 we find Esau was called Edom; so the descendants of Esau (Edom) are who G-d is speaking about in Malachi and NOT Esau while he was still in the womb.

    I find it amazing how christianity ignores the obvious. Or is it christianity that ignores what is on the left side of their bible because it’s “old” and only favor the “new” side. When are you going to start verifying what you have been brainwashed into believing is truth?

    Do you honestly wonder why I call Paul a liar? How much more deception will you accept and tolerate from this false apostle? (read Act 1:21-26 and answer how Paul can be an apostle)

    #947009
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Let’s blow another hole in your “self will righteousness” theory.

    Reading Isa 55:6-7 Seek the Lord when He is found, call Him when He is near. 7 The wicked shall give up his way, and the man of iniquity his thoughts, and he shall return to the Lord, Who shall have mercy upon him, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

    Seems to be saying one should be seeking G-d, who is always near and waiting for you; when those with a contrite/repentant heart confess, renounce, and turn from their sins, it is then G-d will have mercy and freely forgive. What I’m not reading is having to believe in or go thru a Jesus figure to be forgiven. I read of a relationship with G-d himself, the creator of all things; being the originator of life, why would HE need another to help him? Is sin the one area G-d is incompetent to handle?

    Turn back to G-d and away from idolatry (anything coming between you and G-d IS idolatry); it’s life changing.

    #947011
    Keith
    Participant

    All must go through Jesus to get to the Father=learning all he taught, applying all he taught, obeying all he taught to the best of their ability. God gave Jesus all authority in heaven and on earth.Matt 28:18) and the judging as well( John 5:27)

    #947012
    Keith
    Participant

    All must go through Jesus to get to the Father= learning, applying and obeying all that he taught to the best of ones ability.

    God gave Jesus all authority in heaven and on earth=Matt 28:18)  And all authority to judge( John 5:27

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